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I Have A Little Bug

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by NSMotherSlug#881, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. NSMotherSlug#881

    NSMotherSlug#881 Member

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    So the problem I have is in the Mission A Helping Hand the last Dwarf light before getting on to the mainline track from out of Cumberland Yard stays RED it never turns green ever !!! I've sat there for 15mins and if I try to request by the tab key it says denied and if I try going though it Mission failed
     
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  2. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    Did you check if switches ahead are actually set to mainline?
     
  3. NSMotherSlug#881

    NSMotherSlug#881 Member

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    you can't set them there automatically align
     
  4. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    This has been reportd time and time again. The scenario is effectively broken and DTG won’t fix it, but if you want to complete it, wait a loooooong time for the signal to clear.
     
  5. Sintbert

    Sintbert Active Member

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    I don't know if i just waited long enough, but it was cleared for me after setting back, switching into the neighbor track, driving in there and then go back to the correct track again.
     
  6. NSMotherSlug#881

    NSMotherSlug#881 Member

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    guess I'll just have to play around with it more an see Thanks :)
     
  7. Jacko

    Jacko New Member

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    In case it helps... I managed to do this scenario a few days ago without any real problems. The signal at the exit of the yard initially seemed a bit slow for me too, but it cleared when I got closer than 10 yards from it. Perhaps it simulates 'approach control' (of a sort). Maybe proximity is the answer?
     
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  8. NSMotherSlug#881

    NSMotherSlug#881 Member

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    Yeah I just honestly finished it yay !!! all missions done I had to stop 6yds from it to turn green in 12sec Thanks :)
     
  9. Jacko

    Jacko New Member

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    My pleasure! Glad it helped. :)
    Also it's nice to have it confirmed that 'approach control' really does seem to be a thing that's implemented in the game!
     
  10. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    There shouldn’t be approach control though. Just because it resembles something from real life does not instantly mean it’s DTG being clever. America does not and will never use approach control because it is just stupid. The worst thing you can force an American freight train to do is stop then go right away-these behemoths are meant to stay moving for a long time and stay stopped for a long time.
     
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  11. VION

    VION Member

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    About the signal stuck at red, before you start moving did you look at the map if your way is setup correctly setting all the switches to follow the blue line from your start point and along your path ?
     
  12. Jacko

    Jacko New Member

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    Approach control isn't 'stupid'; it's designed for a very specific safety situation. I agree it should not be implemented at every signal (that would be stupid), and I very much doubt that it is, within the sim. It is certainly not implemented universally in the UK.

    It's also not intended to make a train stop - that would also be stupid, if it was the plan. It isn't. It's intended to make the train SLOW DOWN to a speed that is safe enough to cross a given hazard that has a low speed restriction, where speed control is vital, and the consequences of oversight are potentially very bad, and there is little or no opportunity for a long overlap beyond the signal. The slower the speed restriction over the switch/bridge/whatever, the more likely that the approach-control will be from red, and with a close-range detection before the signal comes off. Switches/hazards that can be crossed at a higher speed might only be signalled with approach-control to yellow, and the coming-off point much earlier - still slowing down the train, but not as much.

    The nightmare scenario is a driver who has a lapse of concentration, and forgets that the hazard ahead is a killer at more than (say) 15mph, sees a green light ahead, and just charges on at line-speed and comes a cropper on the switch. Result, much carnage. This, with the greatest respect, is what is most stupid - and deadly - hence the need to limit the human factors and avoid it. Bear in mind that UK approach-control came long, long before any sort of speed-detection systems (TPWS/ATP/etc) or in-cab signalling, that we see nowadays. And it worked, and has saved many, many hundreds of lives.

    Your logic that a train should never stop is a bit simplistic, imho. Sometimes, they have to. More often, they just need to slow down to negotiate a hazard that cannot be 'designed-out'. Certainly it's not great practice to bring a humungously heavy train to a complete stop - but that is not what approach-control should do, and it would be a crummy driver who actually did have to full stop. He's meant to bring it to the right speed necessary for the hazard to be passed safely, at which time, the length of the track-circuit doing the approach control detection will have switched the aspect. Then he can simply coast over the junction, and apply power to bring speed back up gently once his tail was clear.

    You say you don't have approach-control in the US. Per se, that may true on paper in terms of definition. But you use your distant signals and the 40mph 'Delay in Block' rule to achieve precisely the same pre-hazard speed-control result, where interlockings require a lower-than-line speed and a method more robust than just speed-restriction signage is needed. The outcome, and the method of approach, is pretty much the same, and it's just a question of semantics. The final signal before the interlocking will not go clear if the train is coming on too fast - whether that's a manual dispatcher/signalman decision, or an automated one, by dint of timers or track-circuit position detection or both.

    And in all situations, if the driver approaching reduces his speed too much, or stops completely, he's going to cause himself extra work and headaches, but that doesn't make any system of failsafe speed reduction prior to a hazard 'stupid' in my book... YMMV.
     
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  13. Corvan

    Corvan Well-Known Member

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    All very interesting but I doubt that signal at Cumberland is an approach signal. It's a bug and should be recognised as such so that DTG will pull their fingers out and fix it.
     
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  14. Jacko

    Jacko New Member

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    If it's a bug, it's quite minor (compared to a number of other, bigger bugs we know about that are more worthy of earlier fixes).

    Some might say it's not even a bug, but an aspect of 'gameplay'. It could be construed as a pedantic dispatcher, waiting to see you're slowing down before pulling the lever/hitting the button to clear the signal. Or a timer-controlled signal-release acting as an enforced speed-limiting/hazard prevention mechanism. (Both perfectly valid from what I've been reading about US signals, especially given that this is the main exit signal from the depot onto the 'live' running lines).

    In any event, demanding that DTG 'pull out fingers' or calling their choices 'stupid' is probably not the most-productive way of gaining their support and action. I know how I'd feel if I was them, and read those sorts of comment aimed at my work (the majority of which is actually pretty sound, but of course imperfect).

    Especially given that (AFAIK) this hasn't actually been reported (with its emergent 'solution' or the evidence that it's behaving as a UK-style approach-control signal when it shouldn't be, if that is indeed the case) in the correct thread for bug reports. This is 'General Discussion'. It could be months before a DTG dev wanders in here and happens to sift it and its conclusion out from the rest of the thread(s).

    Don't get me wrong - DTG are not above criticism or complaint and are not perfect. I'm no blinkered fanboi who thinks they can do no wrong. And I know they have done a lot to generate ire and short patience in some of their customers. I've been around since rev 1 of EA's Rail Simulator too, and seen *all* the promises made by DTG and their predecessors, and I have spent a LOT of money. I have my gripes, just like many here. I've also had a lot of fun, and keep coming back for more (sometimes, despite myself).

    I just happen to think that being unnecessarily curt, impolite or even rude to them, is not going to achieve much, except maybe a ban, more ire, being ignored, and/or a stomach ulcer. Either way, it's unlikely to garner a fix anytime soon.

    TL;DR - if you think it's a bug, document it in the right place as fully as you can, and hope for the best.
     
  15. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I should have said that approach control is stupid for american things, but whatever, you can have fun making massive posts about this. All I know is that I do not want to be slowing down my 10000 ton train right down to just at 15 mph just to get a 25 mph crossover.

    Plus, my own experience, as well as experience from others, points out that approach control/whatever thing that is acting like approach control is not actually going on. If approach control was occurring, it would not be possible to SPAD that signal, it would turn green before you reach it...but I have seen a SPAD happen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  16. Jacko

    Jacko New Member

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    Point taken; I'll try and make this shorter.
    If you're having to slow down your 10k ton train to 15mph for a 25mph junction, then either you're overcooking the braking, or the detection zone in rear of the signal isn't big enough/early enough. It's either an operator fault or a design flaw. The whole point is to attempt to ensure the driver has brought the train to the right speed for the hazard. In practice that'll probably be a few mph below the restriction speed.

    Real-life SPADs are possible even at approach-controlled signals if the approach-speed is way too fast. It's unusual, yes, rare, even, but it's possible. The signal release to clear is usually done via a timer from the detection point, and (in RL) will also involve 'proving' the route via the interlocking, which takes a finite time. If the train is going far too fast, it can overshoot the signal whilst still at red. If the train makes it into the next track-circuit berth, the signal will be held at red and no cleared aspect will have appeared.
     

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