Impact Of Sbb's Licensing Changes On Swiss Content In Train Sim World

I have no idea, it just sounds so absurd. As others have said, there are more than just the Safety Systems to set a Train in motion. A Key, for example.

 

I always understand the safety concerns about unauthorized people doing LOVE in real life or think wow I flew a plane or drove a train/bus whatever in a game I am no capable of doing this in real life. These people will always exist. But to be honest if I really want to try this in the real world there are so many possibilities, you can read everything, find pictures of everything and still be able to start a train or whatever. And I dont think I would be able to start a train with my knowledge from TSW. But whatever SBBs concern is, hopefully they change it and anyways RhB is very nice as well. Don't think other rail operators will follow this example, in the end it's a nice promotion tool, they get money and maybe people want to work for them. Just my opinion

 

Doesn't ÖBB and DB run across the major SBB lines ?

Does the licence include the trackage and countryside ? That might be a fun way around it for 3rd party or anyone else who dares a copyright takedown.

 

that would be a very boring route, as only like 2% of the daily trains on that route then would be included.
ÖBB and DB only run very few trains in Switzerland.

 

even if SBB does not want to play along, there are other train operators in Switzerland, that would be wonderful to have in the game:
SOB - Voralpenexpress
BLS - Lötschbergbahn
MOB - GoldenPass Express
BOB, JB, WAB, BLM - Jungfraubahnen
RhB
MGB
...

With SBB out of the possibilities, this probably also counts for Thurbo, RegioAlps and zb, which are all owned by SBB.

 

Plenty of good routes still left in the world to make without having to bend to SBB’s terms tbh

As long as this doesn’t impact existing content further, I think we’re in good shape

 

What routes are SBB used for in TSW?

 

S-Bahn Zentralschweiz Luzern-Sursee and
Vorarlberg(Just a Layer)

 

Oh, so much to that then ! I thought it was more.

 

This is so sad as we now won't get any more mainline content from switzerland in TSW and I was hoping to get away from TSC for swiss content. And the RHB stuff is nice, but it is something completely different to the mainline stuff, was really hoping for something like gotthard or something around zürich but we now absolutely can smoke that.

 

Really depends on where you work... I'm required to call in any vandalism immediately. Of course you can't call in the game so this would be the closest to it. Yes this also means that one would technically have to call it in every single time you pass that spot, so I would rather get rid off it myself at this point, if only I had those GTA 5 pockets that can magically fit anything.

 

I get what you’re saying, but I think it’s more than just the logos. It seems like SBB’s new restrictions also apply to any content related to their rail network, not just the branding. So even if the logos were removed, the limitations on safety systems would still apply on SBB tracks.

 

Assuming they are just an operator and don’t build the train itself or own the infrastructure they have no claim over that.

Anyway, it’s a moot point as it sounds like their association with train sims is done.

 

It's a real shame if SBB are off the table

a) we need more SBB stock to make Zentralschweiz worth playing
b) the potential for great routes is enormous
c) SBB stock could enhance Arosa*, Vorarlberg, Munich-Augsburg*, Linke Rheinstrecke, HRR, Koeln-Aachen*, Hamburg - Lubeck*, Bremen - Oldenburg* and doubtless many future routes.

* as AI

 

SBB and Stadler have a very strong relationship.

 

They are, as much has been said in this thread. Good riddance to them.

 

Great to hear you taking a stand on this. Trainworx has quit making content for TSC because of all this and Christrains has to dump down his new version of the Turbo GTW greatly. They have not made any friends with this and there is no need for investing in SSB content with these new rules.

 

They may have, but unless Stadler themselves have a problem with it the operator has no right to issue a cease and desist on something they have no ownership over. It’s like LNER demanding all Class 800/801’s across all operators are made stop/go, which is just as ridiculous.

 

It's one thing to say good riddance to a problematic company, another to say good riddance to the Re 420, the Re 460, panoramic coaches, the Giruno, the Gotthard route, the Zurich to Chur line, the Rheinfall at Schaffhausen, the busy hubs at Zurich, Olten, Basel, etc. That's a real shame.

 

agreed with this. Starting to make wistlists of SBB stuff just after Matt clearly said, they are done with SBB content, is a bit silly. I would also be done with SBB, if I was doing payware for train sims.
Trainwork (who made SBB content for TSC) have given up. I think you don´t need to know any more.

 

It’s not me nor DTG that have caused this. SBB will no longer be in train sims, and that’s on them. No one else. There’s a whole world out there and they’re no great loss imho, especially with that attitude.

 

Exactly. Time to spread wings, see how receptive other European railways are. Czech Republic, Slovakia, the various Balkan countries, Scandinavia. TBH apart from the Gotthard Line, there are not a huge amount of SBB routes crying out to be made. They even hived off the metre gauge and rack Brunigbahn some years ago.

 

I don't recall suggesting it was DTG's fault, let alone yours (!), just that it's a shame not to be able to experience trains and routes that I like in a sim I enjoy. That's true whether it's SBB's fault, DTG's fault, or no-one's.

 

SBB still own the Brunigbahn as much as they own Thurbo - they have a 2/3 stake in the company (zentralbahn) and their logo is on all their trains.

 

Coming back from posting similar thoughts in the TSC section... SBB are getting funny over too much cab and driving detail, yet as many routes are put out with a representation of grafitti which could only have been painted IRL by the tagger trespassing and putting themselves in danger, doesn't seem to bother them!

 

For what it's worth, I *am* trying to get the same sort of agreement in place that DTG has, re: not retroactively changing older trains. Whether this bears fruit or not is yet to be seen. I thought it better to warn people what to expect in the worst case, as I've been waiting a long time on the most recent reply from SBB and it feels like it's not going to happen.

 

Personally I'm not sure that SBB would have an argument in court if it did go that far. The simple question to ask would be "Has anyone ever been known to have hijacked a train based on information learnt from a train simulator?" The answer, I expect, is no.

This is very similar to the argument that GTA taught criminals what to do, and that was a load of rubbish as well. I've been playing GTA for years and I haven't stolen anything, I've been playing TS for years and haven't stolen a train, and I've watched Bond films for years and haven't destroyed any Moroccon desert server farm lairs... Yet.

But going back to the TS(W) world, AP have been releasing unbranded content for years and the only time there has ever been an issue is with Virgin Trains and with TFL. In both cases the community just made community patches, and in the case of the Virgin Mark 3s it turned out better than the original. Of course with developers stripping out features it isn't so easy so I'm glad that you won't be removing features for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure why ChrisTrains and other developers didn't just remove the branding because that would have been the easier solution that the community could easily fix afterwards. Of course it's much harder to do that in TSW.

I respect your decision to cancel future SBB content rather than release SCR-level DLC, although if it was my money I would have risked it and released unbranded SBB content for TSW and TS with full functionality. I do doubt that anything bad would happen to a small developer, but for DTG it could be different.

That said the best solution is for SBB to grow up, but that's out of our control.

 

DTG, it's time to contact railway operators from the CIS))

 

Assuming you're talking about the Commonwealth of Independent States, you may be onto something. I know that they're aren't part of it but Czech railways are pretty cool, same with Poland.

 

Regarding this, I think the relevant part of Matt's quote is here:

It's not just about the one operator you're blanking out potentially taking you to court, it's also about showing every potential collaborator that you're willing to do that. Respect is a pretty important intangible; openly disrespect the people you collaborate with, and you might as well kiss the game goodbye.

 

I don't see the problem there. There was never a wave of operators demanding that AP stop providing branding patches for their logos, just two isolated cases years apart. DTG can certainly theorise that that would happen, but whether it would in reality is up for question.

Keep in mind that DTG have done it before. The RSDL Class 66 and 08 packs had unbranded liveries for EWS, Freightliner, GBRF, etcetera, and there was never an issue. Obviously it's been more than a decade since the packs were replaced by superior versions, with some of the brands they previously had unbranded versions of included in these packs. DTG and Rivet did it for the Class 484 as well, and no train operators have ditched them because of it and no train manufacturers have barred their trains being represented either.

Again, I'd take the risk. Even if SBB or another operator somehow got it into court (and I'd feel sorry for the taxpayer of any country where the national operator is using public money to be the train simulator police), I really can't see it holding up in court.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, Matt. It’s good to know there won’t be any retroactive changes, and that the Luzern update already sorted things out with SBB. I totally get your point about respecting the wishes of the rail operators—better to keep those relationships positive.Glad to hear there are still plenty of operators who appreciate what train simulation can offer. Focusing on them definitely seems like the way to go. Thanks again for the update!

 

Where else can you find a station called Kubovka Hut!

And both the CD Class 749 "Grumpies" (in original noisy form) and the dinky little 810 class Pacer type single cars are crying out to be in TSW.

Go for it, Matt!

 

Look on the bright side - maybe it will lead to more historical routes instead with 'proper trains'

 

I would rather Railway Operators did what they feel is needed to keep the railways safe and secure than care about a train simulator.

There was a hijacking of a train in Switzerland only in February - and while the train didn't move, there was nothing stopping the hijacker from jumping in the cab (he had already forced the driver to join the passengers, so nobody was there to stop him.)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/societ...aker-on-train-in-western-switzerland/49200564

I would suspect incidents like that are the things they're concerned about, not being spoil-sports for the sake of it.

 

Very much seems like the canary in the coalmine to me- corporate groupthink is strong and can spread quickly.

Dark tidings for the hobby IMO.

 

I wouldn't be worried. There was no wave of US freight operators banning sales outside of the US, no wave of rail operators preventing their logos being used even in free patches, and there was no wave of rail operators forcing safety systems to be turned on.

 

You’re probably right, and that’s what’s probably behind it, but that’s even more non-sensical to me and smacks of a knee-jerk reaction. ‘Quick, we must be seen to do something! I know, a train-sim. Let’s dumb that down, that’ll show them’

If people are hi-jacking trains in Switzerland then I’d say the Swiss have bigger issues there they need to sort out, removing a few controls from a train sim isn’t going to stop that I’m afraid. I presume, as I mentioned earlier, they’ll be removing all railway related books, manuals, videos etc from sale or public view that also tell you how to operate and drive a train? Thought not. Just go after the easy target so we can show the lawyers we’ve taken action.

It’s ridiculous, but it is what it is. Their loss.

 

Right, who wants to pay 8€ for 5 Lindt pralines or one Chocolate anyway?

 

At least this doesnt mean therell be no swiss routes anymore. Looking forward to more RhB content

 

So long as they don’t follow suit.

Also at this stage just be grateful it’s only the trains and cabs that have been affected. If people push back too much and provoke them, they may well turn round and extend the ban to depicting any of their route infrastructure or signalling systems in a train sim as well.

 

If someone was actively planning to take over a train, a train simulator would be a decent place to start. Assuming it's not a cold start, in which case TSW is very much not their friend. It certainly doesn't seem 'knee-jerk' when they've had six months since the incident (assuming it is, even partly, down to that) so I'd suspect they've considered it among many options, rather than pretending they've done something.

It's our loss but I can understand why, even if is a bit disappointing.

 

Really a shame :/
Have always been hoping for the Gotthardbahn, but here we are I guess.
What I don’t understand now is: Will we be able to see e.g. the Lötschbergbahn?
BLS is the operator on this line although SBB can run their trains there. Is that also a thing now, since BLS is a completely different company like RhB? Or is it not possible since BLS and SBB share the same tracks here?

 

That is fantastic news. The Rhb routes have a huge place in my heart personally.

 

Real shame we won’t get to see more SBB, they have some great looking trains I wanted to try out one day.

Personally I’m a real suckler for Branding in sims, usually one of the first things I do when getting unbranded sim content is go for brand patches. However when you’re talking about the changes that would be required under these new terms, it would be one of the times I’d agree with no branding.

But I think Matt is right, all doing that would achieve is broadcasting to other ToC’s that you won’t play by the rules & considering they have decent relationships with a lot of ToC’s, I don’t think it’s worth the risk, especially for an operator that isn’t really covered in TSW.

This does highlight a point though, that we need more European operators & routes in the game. For me German stuff has got very stale because it’s soooo much DB. OBB seems to be picking up but we’re not exactly pushing the boat out there. Would be nice to go abit further afield.

 

I mean, if you are afraid that unauthorised personnel will get a hold of a loco and drive it, the last thing you want is the safety systems switched off! At least in such a situation you'd want that someone to know how to activate the PZB, even Sifa!

 

If train operators are concerned people are gonna jump on their trains and do the Frank in them, then maybe they should be more concerned about their own security!

I'm not gonna miss anything.