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Is The Editor Expected To Go Online This Year?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by phantomgroup, May 8, 2020.

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  1. ronaldix

    ronaldix New Member

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    If DTG decides to not release a full PC editor than It's a big mistake, because what have kept alive all the games like MSTS, Trainz, and TS for so many years is their editors and the possibilty to create maps and trains from others countries not represented in the games. Don't you think that italians, spanish, russians, and many other players that never had content from their countries in TSW or TS will keep playing TSW2 if they can't make their own trains and routes in the game? Or event just to have fun with the tools, express their creativity. I personnally have spend 3/4 of my time playing TS in the editor and 1/4 of the time actually driving trains. I own TSW but I don't play a lot because there is no editor and I know many players that are doing the same.
    So I think an editor is vital for TSW at some point at least for PC players otherwise the game won't last as long as the previous games like TS and MSTS before
     
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  2. Bristolian

    Bristolian New Member

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    My opinion, for what it's worth, is that DTG don't see a future for TSW (I'm sure that anyone who was thinking of buying DLC for it will now think twice). TSW2 is being produced which will 'supposedly' include a very limited set of tools for it. TSW2 is going to be their baby.

    I find it very unpalatable that DTG are not giving TSW2 as free upgrade to those of us who have owned TSW from the early CSX Sandpatch Grade days. We supported the program then, and now we're being asked to buy again the simulator that seems to be what TSW was promised to have been.

    DTG, I'm sure you're aware that many of us in the community, those who pay your wages, are not happy at being treated like this, and will vote with their feet. The US market already have a superior simulator in Run8 (which I own). It's a shame that the rest of the world are saddled with an older product (albeit one which has a large community base now, one which also has its' flaws that were not corrected since the early days of Kuju Rail Simulator.
     
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  3. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Let’s be real, the whole TSW franchise has been a disappointment.

    Totally let down, nowhere near as exciting as when TSW was first launched and is just another locked down game. The fact that we’re being told not to expect x, y & z features just says it all.

    Do I see a future for TSW? With the way things are going currently, absolutely not. TSW will never replace TS1.
     
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  4. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    exactly Alex, we have been lied to in the face, but, how do I call these people without being disrespectful, uhm, no, not fanboys, no not blind people, let's call them optimistic people, just hear the good things. But what DTG is doing now is telling us, we promised you X for product A, then they announced product B, and now we're not going to get X at all. Thanks DTG. I hope you realise how much you have damaged your own image in the last weeks. I want your franchise to succeed, but you guys don't have you heart or your mouth in the right place. Or at the very least, the actual devs have their heart in the right place, but management doesn't.
     
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  5. Sam_Foster_IT/ICRR

    Sam_Foster_IT/ICRR Member

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    Lmao, I think Dovetail just sealed their fate. Promised an editor back in 2017, showed off their "editor" in 2018, but took them over 3 years to just come out and say there won't be one. Broken promises and lying to their fanbase, typical DTG. And now "TSW 2" is coming out in August, essentially a paid update that brings a new livery maker and a glorified quick-drive that nobody asked for or really wants. Just say there won't be an editor, there won't be multiplayer, and there won't be steam engines instead of lying in the faces of the people who spent money on your games. That is some scummy business, and people are starting to realize. People wouldn't get so mad if you just told the truth.
     
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  6. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely.
     
  7. GarethDavies21

    GarethDavies21 New Member

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    Sam, Thank you for being honest with the fans. At the moment it seems like you are the only one who is actually doing it and the first for a long time. It's a shame about the editor. Please, in future don't promise something you know you can't deliver on I.e editor longer routes etc.
     
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  8. Connor Eaton

    Connor Eaton New Member

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    I think you have hit the nail on the head. And what we need to remember is DTG Protagonist is actually giving answers to us (disappointing answers, but answers nonetheless) which haven't been forthcoming from DTG for quite a while. Personally, and editor would have been nice, especially with everything the community has managed to create since railworks or before!

    Going forward though, it sounds like answers will be more like this from now on, instead of giving answers that don't come to life.
     
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  9. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Member

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    It's disappointing that the position is now that a publically available editor won't be a thing (though I am please one will be available through the partner programme). Something I love to do in TS1 is just jump in the editor and make a scenario for myself or have a mess around with building a small route - it's one of the reasons I've accumulated nearly 4,900 hours in TS1 since christmas 2013 (for context, I've owned TSW since it first came out - I even played the semi-open beta - and I only have 123 hours in total).

    What I'm more concerned about, as someone who has wishes of creating 3rd party DLC for TSW is the people saying that TSW won't surpass TS1 (implying it'll just die out) and saying that people are just going to move away and back to TS1. That's forcing me to seriously consider projects I'd planned for a long while under the assumption that one would be readily available (with the live stream in 2018 and mesages of "It'll come when it's ready"). It'll not be cheap making it to the detail TSW demands and especially with the fact I'd have to make new stock, which will turn this project from a labour of love (tis my local line) to a business risk.

    For me, for the moment, I'm going to treat TSW2 as just a piece of DLC (I'm actually looking forward to the Bakerloo Line) that appears as a seperate entry on my library.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    If I'm understanding this, by limiting any editor to their approved 3rd party program, everything that is produced will only be released as a chargeable DLC. There won't be any of the free user content there is with TS1.

    And, before anyone decides to start having a go about a me or others wanting stuff for free, just remember DTG have recently been promoting free content with their Workshop Wednesday streams.
     
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  11. spudknowsbest

    spudknowsbest New Member

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    talk about killing your game before it releases. Is there anything else that dovetail has lied about the last week, or do you want to just come out and tell us it all?
     
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  12. spudknowsbest

    spudknowsbest New Member

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    And can you tell me why, me as the consumer should give you any money for your product when you are constantly changing your tune on what is and what isnt happening?
     
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  13. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    No one is pointing a gun at you telling you buy the game
     
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  14. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Correct
     
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  15. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

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    Anyway, with a public editor out of the question - let's move on to the next question: what does it take to get accepted into the Partner Programme? Will I be required to have a business registration, for example (which I have)? Do you expect me to have prior experience in the video game development industry? Do you want me to submit business plans for review?
     
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  16. spudknowsbest

    spudknowsbest New Member

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    Which is what killed FSW in its tracks as all the third party content creators backed out as dtq wanted a share of the money.
    Its beyond outrageous how shady unethical DTG have become over the last few years.
     
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  17. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

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    Like many in the community, I'm rather disappointed for reasons that don't need to be stated yet again. However I want to add this, I want to thank Sam for getting some honesty out of the company, even if it hurts, and for Matt for sticking around despite the circumstances, as well as all the devs and artists at the company whom I'm sure are quite passionate about their work and I'm sure many are as disappointment with the game as the community is.

    I want to make it clear that my frustration is entirely aimed at the management of the company, the "decision makers" who have decided to put short term money first at the sacrifice of a long, strong community. The people who lead the game in directions while completely oblivious to what the community wants. And I'm not talking just the enthusiast community, even the casuals, who probably get just as confused with some of the bugs this games present which never get fixed. The people who see the editor as a threat to the bottom line about the company.

    I've been an optimist about this game myself, and I still find myself playing it because of how it's the best we have right now for a lot of content, and I know it's in vain, but I really hope that through some means, this staff can be made aware of the consequences of the way they're leading the project.

    TSW could be so amazing, the framework for amazing first party, and third party routes through an editor is there.

    A partner program does make sense, especially for third parties to get visibility to earn money through the game. But what stops DTG simply from putting some terms on an editor that doesn't allow it's use for profit? If the concern is getting a cut from third party content that would be one way to deal with it while still letting the community get creative, and fix what they believe needs fixing and improving. Imo it would be a win win.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
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  18. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Member

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    Oh yeah, it's almost certainly the people at the top puppeting the people making the thing (that's fairly common among games companies). However, I think the issue of the editor is deeper than that, and I think it's a combination of Epic refusing to license it (if that is indeed happening) and a desire to make it accessible to most, if not all, people. The UE4 tools can certainly seem confusing when you first look at them, and the stream from 2018 showing off what there was of the editor didn't make it look very straightforward to say the least.
     
  19. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    yea you're right, I am active on this forum for the very reason that I am not interested in train simulators.
     
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  20. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - unhelpful comment, watch the language]
     
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  21. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Yes, none of this anger or frustration is aimed at Sam.

    It goes by the old saying of 'Don't shoot the messenger'

    It seems, however, this messenger was being trapped or got lost on the way for many years, before finally be able to deliver the vital messages us, we as the community, could hear.
     
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  22. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

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    If the main block about a public editor is that DTG want to make one that is easy for many to use, what's the harm in releasing a less refined "expert" editor earlier based upon the internal one? TSW would certainly not be the first game where creation tools are available on PC and not on console, that's something pretty expected in the industry imo. I don't want to be a conspiracy nut, but like other have stated, it really feels like an excuse to hide the real reason why they don't want to release it.
     
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  23. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Member

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    Because Epic appear to be refusing to license it. Because the TSW editor is heavily based on the UE4 editor, they need Epic to license it for dovetail to release it.
     
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  24. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Everyone should at least take a quick look at this article which was posted a year ago: https://live.dovetailgames.com/live...W2T44UgPfV71GrLO1tcsNtNG3gDJQP249S7ce5cEhVDI0

    They even stated that people should download the UE4 editor from epic to 'get a head start' and that there were plans for a public 'beta' roll out. Since the bombshell last week that no editor would be forthcoming I was willing to give DTG the benefit of the doubt on this but after reading the article I am not surprised people are seething.
     
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  25. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

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    If that's so, they could just tell us? Even if they can't give specifics, any info would calm wild speculation.
     
  26. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I would not be surprised if that article and the editor stream (which is still available on youtube) is taken offline between now and TSW2's release. I know in this day and age that does not mean in any way it is erased from existence, but having that stuff on their official channels just makes it alot easier for people to bring it up in their faces.
     
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  27. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Yes I remember that article and did just that downloaded it awaiting the editors release and now nothing no release.
     
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  28. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    Kudos to Sam for getting DTG to own up/clarify.
    TSW was to be the next generation for the rail simming community, TSW2 isn't that game.
    Something else will have to be. TSW2 is DTG's Sim City 5.

    I see a sim with VR capability, real-time weather/services, a whole host of roles, rolling stock & route building that's intuitive, basic and pro levels and time machine capability (Like Making Tracks managed on Greater Anglia with NSE or modern modes). For now TS classic is good enough for my purposes.
     
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  29. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Sam has been a breath of fresh air, I think we can all agree on that. Getting 'yes' and 'no' answers to things is something we have wanted from day dot.

    My only concern is once the permanent community manager is hired and Sam leaves....will DTG continue on with this fresh mindset or will it revert to how things were ?
     
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  30. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Active Member

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    Let me put this out to people:

    THE EDITOR WILL NOT BE PUBLICALLY RELEASED, SIMPLE AS.

    I think some of you need to understand the complexity behind releasing an editor for TSW. First off UE4 is much more complicated than the older Engine used in TS Classic, the way TS set up meant that doing edits and that sort of stuff was very easy.

    However with UE4, you cant just put a "Build" button on the Home screen and expect it to be smooth sailing, game coding is complicated, full of twists and turns and takes up a lot of time.

    Another issue would be the backlash from the console players. Like DTG mentioned in the post a year ago it wasn't going to be really possible to have the editor on the PS4 & the Xbox 360. Simply because consoles are not designed in the same way as PCs are. You can't build create a game on a console, you just cant. The same with editing a route on TSW, consoles are just not powerful enough to do these sort of tasks like PCs can (which is why I prefer playing on a PC)

    If you can't deal with the fact that the editor is not coming out for us to use, then don't bother playing TSW. At the end of the day DTG is a business, and they know what's the right descision to make whether some people like it or not.

    I understand that it's frustrating to some that you wont be able to freely edit or even CREATE your own routes on TSW and sadly it's just the way it is going to be. Sometimes these changes are made for the better and you just have to live with it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  31. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Anthony, but you are wrong there. Limiting the editor to the partner program means the content is essentially second party....not third. Third party content would not be affiliated with DTG in any way

    DTG not allowing third party content allows them to control the content...which I believe is one of the main reasons for not releasing it to the public
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  32. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s not just the one article either, it appears they never shut up about what people would be able to do with the editor when it came out. Loads of studio updates about it. I came to TSW after all that dried up and have only known the ‘no news on the editor’ response ad infinitum (since last August for me). People on the forum were already fed up of that response then.
     
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  33. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    You're on this forums because you play the game no one is that stupid & I am not defending DTG hen I say this
     
  34. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Lol yeah, is that why Flight Sim World flopped as well? Because they know what's the right business decision to make?

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want TSW to fail, but the outlook is really weak in my eyes so far. And in some way it does look similar to what FSW did before shutting down: useless features that noone really asked for and don't improve gameplay (Mastery, Journey Mode) and constant re-branding and re-releasing(TSW2020, now TSW2).

    I hope it doesn't end this way, but I know for a fact that I for example will not be buying TSW2 at launch. I will probably get it at a later point when more game improvements will be implemented and more add-ons released that actually grasp my interests, but so far not. So is it really a good business direction when you're constantly driving your potential playerbase away?

    The thing about the editor is, that TS1 was and still is a success because it allowed user created content. This allowed the devs to profit a lot while it requiring minimal work, and they only have to work on the game itself, compared to if they had to do all the content creation themselves. But now they don't give the community the chance to create content, so it's up to the devs themselves, while they also have to work on the game itself. So they have like double the work, while profiting less, because a big portion of the PC community simply doesn't care about TSW if there is no editor. The player numbers reflect this pretty well, considering the numbers are really weak on PC compared to consoles.

    Some people also use these player numbers to justify not releasing the editor, saying it makes sense because the editor would only be usable on PC, but what's the point of working on a PC editor when the number of PC players is low. But the thing is, the number of PC players is low exactly because there is no editor and user content creation.

    Now I can understand if there really are some licencing issues going on with Epic games, but I would've though they would think about these kind of things before starting the project, and that they would've made sure they will be able to do it in the future before starting to promote it to everyone.
     
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  35. SamBruce

    SamBruce New Member

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  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is the problem, people don't understand it or don't want to understand it. I don't understand the mechanics required to get an editor working it is far beyond my knowledge, however I don't believe that DTG wouldn't want an editor if they could release one, as it has served them well in TS1, so I reluctantly accept there will not be one, not because DTG don't want to release one but because it is either not possible, totally impractical, extremely hard to do, will possibly lead to stability issues or breaking other things, possibly a combination of a myriad of reasons.

    However, people won't look at it from DTG's side, it only takes a couple of state, "they could release and editor but choose not to" and then that becomes fact on a public forum and those saying don't have to prove it. I think people should be more responsible when they state "facts" but it will be for ever thus and is on every public forum whether it is a national newspaper or a hobbiest forum like this. I do think DTG have certainly been culpable though but I do genuinely think they intended to release and editor and have now probably realised they have bit off more than they can chew, it is regrettable but not an uncommon situation with new projects. I certainly don't think they should be called liars, you may think you are directing your comments at a organisation but an organisation is made up individuals who all have a stake in their products and a pride in who they work for, so you are in fact tarring individuals with the same brush even if you think you are not.

    Personally, I think we all need to take a collective breath and decide whether there is any point keep going round in circles going about the editor, it is finished, no amount of moaning or anger is going to bring it for now and we need to accept that. Each individual then obviously has to decide whether they want to purchase TSW2 with this certain knowledge in mind.

    For me, I will still get it, I am content to do my scenario creation in TS1. I will be more circumspect to what content I purchase for TSW2 but with service mode it gives plenty of options so it means I don't have to create scenarios, although I would have done if possible. I think TS1 is the sim I will take more seriously, TSW and TSW2 is one I will use when I just want to fire up and drive. Even without the editor I have had plenty of enjoyment out of TSW so it has still been good value as far as I am concerned.
     
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  37. SamBruce

    SamBruce New Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - watch your tone]
     
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  38. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    So having an UE4 game with a public editor is not that much of an impossible witchcraft after all, lol
     
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  39. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I believe a lot of people will take the same approach, TS1 for a train simulator and TSW for a train driving game.
     
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  40. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

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    [I miss-clicked, this is supposed to be a quote of SprattyHeath's post]
    Let me break down this reasoning:

    Yes, UE is obviously more complicated, however, you have to remember that DTG is the one coding the game, they have the power to decide what they spend their time on, they've dug themselves into a corner where they've made things even more complicated for themselves.

    The backlash from console players? I'm sorry, I don't like the PC vs Console arguments, but when you chose a console, you give up the advantages having a PC has. Among others, the ability to edit content, many games have huge modding communities that are non existent on console, simply because they don't let you go into the game files. Any console player complaining about there not being an editor on their platform can only really blame their decision to chose that compromise.

    "DTG is a business, and they know the right decision" hoooo boy. Plenty of companies out there make mistakes, like sacrifice long term communities for a short term gain. I hardly see any of this as "a change for the better"... How is being limited in what you can do with the content you've paid for a good thing. It's really becoming quite plain to see that DTG wants to keep ultimate control of what goes into the game, which obviously will earn them more money in the short term, but without a thriving community, once people get bored of the content, they'll leave.

    I don't think we should just accept "the way it's going to be" just because the great DTG gods have decided to go this way. Without a player-base, a game is nothing. I think we're rather justified in complaining about the rolling back of things we were promised, that we bought content for a game on the promise of something that'll never arrive...
     
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  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - unhelpful]
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    So what are you going to do? You can't change anything. You either purchase the new version or don't, you don't really have much choice in the matter. Complaining on here won't get you anywhere!
     
  43. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - unhelpful]
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well that is fine for me to some extent. Although there are things TSW simulates quite well so I personally would call it a simulator it is just you won't be able to mould it so much into what you want it to be, which you can with TS1.

    As long as TS1 still works and new content get produced then I am quite happy. Disappointed there is no TSW editor but for me there are more important things in life to worry about so I am will just get on with it.
     
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  45. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The forums are owned and monitored by DTG, so this should be the place to complain so DTG are aware of the feelings of their users.

    As for complaining not getting you anywhere, tell that to the kids who are now going to get school meals over the summer thanks to Marcus Rashford complaining or just watch the news about the changes in society right now. Whether you agree with them or not, it's all brought about by people complaining.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  46. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    that wouldn't be fine with me, TSW has the world simulator in the title, now I know a lot of, mostly german, companies take that word very liberal, but a company with the size of DTG won't sell me a product called a sim to me again, if semi-advanced features are missing
     
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It isn't the same, for the record a completely agree with Marcus Rashfords campaign. But that was an arguably idealogical politcal decision and something perfectly within the remit and capabilities of the government to do something about.

    This is a private company and may well be something which isn't practical, which is basically what we have been told and that is what some will not consider.
     
  48. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well of course that is your choice and DTG may well end up regretting the road they have gone down. I certainly won't be so free in purchasing new add-ons for TSW2 than I was early on for TSW.
     
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  49. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

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    As other's have said, this is the official DTG forum, if they're going to listen anywhere it's here?
    If it weren't for people's complaints, the OSD map wouldn't have gotten updated, the PZB wouldn't have gotten fixed on RT before the release of the 182, flange squeal and some of the signalling issues on ECW would likely not have been fixed, the list goes on.

    Things don't happen if people just "accept" what they're given... Posting our grievances about the management of the game here at least has a chance of being heard by the company if anything. The only cost to me and everyone else posting their issues here is a little bit of their time. If DTG don't react to us, we loose nothing, if they do react positively, what we get is a game that the community has been begging for and more people will enjoy.
     
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  50. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    They are private company that are wanting to sell a product, therefore they have to take into consideration what people want in that product and what people are prepared to pay for that product.

    No company will produce a product that no one wants because at the end of the day they want to make money. Enthusiasts who are not in business will produce something for the love of it, they don't care about the money.

    Therefore, if a lot of people are telling DTG they want or don't want something in their products, then in my opinion they would be foolish to totally disregard those people. I am not stupid or naive to think they can put everything that everyone wants into a product. But, if people don't take them to task and make them question certain decisions, there is a chance they will just carry on down the development path they have chosen and eventually find that they are down that path alone (apart from a small minority who will always buy everything any of their favoured companies produce regardless of cost or quality) and the customers have moved on to something better or different.
     
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