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Is This Game Have A Great Future?.

Discussion in 'PC' started by iosman1234, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. iosman1234

    iosman1234 New Member

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    Hello,

    Like Train Simulator? I mean so much routes, trains, scenarios! Never ending support like Train Simulator!

    Or this is a tech test and tech demo and support ends soon?

    thanks
    iosman
     
  2. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    At least that's not the plan as far as I can tell. But then, neither was that the plan with Flight Sim World, as far as anyone could tell. Two weeks before it got cancelled.

    For a more precise and definite answer I'd need my crystal ball, which I have borrowed to my neighbour unfortunately, so he can cheat at the lottery.
     
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  3. rosariabarone780

    rosariabarone780 Member

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    Surely if TSW continues at this rate, it will not have a great future. Guaranteed.
     
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  4. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I recently caught myself thinking that as well, take ECW as the newest release, easily one of the buggiest so far. Signals not working, AWS not working, services can't be completed, invisible walls inside the trains...

    "We can't build longer routes due to the development time that would take."

    Well then excuse me please, but where exactly did that development time go? What was it spent on? If it's not length (it sure wasn't for ECW), it's not quality assurance, it's not feature-completeness of the 377 included, it's not the number of different trains included either... where did it go? Photoshopping the screenshots for the Steam page? Editing the trailer videos? Where did it go?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  5. J4mes

    J4mes Member

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    What format are you playing on? I am personally on Xbox and can say that so far I have had no issue with the AWS, or the signals holding me up for any length of time. Maybe its just the PC version that is causing the issues for once!!
     
  6. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    At the moment TSW exists because there is no competition from another company. If someone announced a new simulator tomorrow, one with mod support from release, TSW would be in big trouble.

    The issues are definitely present on PC, I can't say whether they are on console or not. You can read more about the issues we've been having here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/east-coastway-issues.19709/

    An easy one to test is the banner repeater showing the wrong aspect as it's apparent with any service approaching Eastbourne.
     
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  7. DigitalRails

    DigitalRails Member

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    Imagine Microsoft announcing a brand new Train Simulator ( like new Flight Sim ), people at DTG will go in the limbo.
    :p
     
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  8. Ding

    Ding Member

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    I can't see why not. TSW runs smooth as butter (I'm on PC) and for me it's more fun than Train Simulator, especially since more DLC has been released. Of course I would be happy to see the bulk of my favorite TS add-ons to become available in TSW, but eventually we'll get there.

    It's always the struggle of missing your old content in a new game at first - but with the shift to Unreal Engine 4, TSW made the right choice in my opinion. It's a good engine that a lot of game developers use and (more importantly) KNOW, so finding employees for TSW-related projects will be much easier I assume. It was also time to depart from TS's legacy-engine that doesn't support a lot of new features that modern graphics cards offer and lacks in performance when compared to graphics quality.

    As a consumer I am looking forward to a bright future with TSW and I am excited about new content to come this year!
     
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  9. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Fingers crossed!
     
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  10. Mr T

    Mr T Active Member

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    It depends what you mean by competition. For example, Derail Valley is a train simulator with immediate mod support. It was initially designed as a VR demo so it has VR from the get go (it also has a steam engine). It's still in early access and as is pretty raw right now but from what the developers are saying the new update promises to be a big one and from what we can see is being worked on a lot. It doesn't have real places or copyrighted names but that may change in the future.

    In my opinion TSW should have also been in early access when it was first released as there were so many bugs and issues with it. Now that a lot of those bugs have been ironed out, the diesels have been properly simulated (ie. in CSX Heavy Haul), and more recently headsway has been implemented, it seems like a proper game (as opposed to an early access one).
     
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  11. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    TSW still feels very Early Access to me. Not that that was something bad per se.
     
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  12. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Something in a similar vein to MSTS, Railworks and TSW; A simulator which attempts to accurately recreate real world routes and trains. Derail Valley is great fun, but it exists somewhere between simulator and arcade, so it's in a more casual gaming market than a simulator, though there is some overlap.

    I agree about TSW being Early Access. Even now it still feels like early access in many ways. For me it won't feel like a complete product until it at least has steam locomotives and the Editor, two features which have been standard on release features in MSTS, Trainz and Railworks.
     
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  13. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    TSW is pretty much the Sony Beta System of Trainsimming. Lots of really nice features, stunning visual quality, and hands down many things it does right, but when it comes to the bare necessities (e.g. length) it falls flat on its face, to say it with Technology Connections.

    It will be interesting to see what happens once somebody comes along and invents the VHS of trainsimming.
     
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  14. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    An interesting analaogy - VHS was an inferior system when it was released compared to Beta, but won the war on marketing and price. I'm not sure a lower entry point, inferior sim would make huge strides in market penetration!
     
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  15. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    The failure of Beta had nothing at all to do with price. Both systems started out as decidedly rich people's toys. It was the small cassettes and therefor short tapes, a design decision made early in the process that killed it. Too short to record a movie, an episode of a TV show, or, most importantly, a football/soccer/whatever sports game.

    Part 1
    Part 2
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    What caused VHS to beat Betamax was getting the industry and consumers to adopt it as standard. So long as a new sim was better than TS2020 and had comparable features, steam locomotives and an Editor, it would be highly likely that the third party developers and the community as a whole would adopt it as the new standard over TSW.
     
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  17. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    There's a couple of you who make me laugh on here and guaranteed every time, the crystal ball is needed I'm afraid, you'll have to go next door and tell him to wait until the next Euro / US Millions.
    I couldn't of said it better and again, this is why we all bang on about route length. TSW using near true to life scale? 1:1? or is it creatively adapted?

    But yes when DTG make a route, and we know they can do it, look at Riviera Line compared to Just Trains' attempt. FPS is usually a lot better with DTG than third parties due to DTG knowing the limitations and not flooding the scenery with Trees to hide the problems, bridge assets with arches that cut off that look like they rushed it. So they can do it, but we'd like to see it. I love TSW but lets see what you can do with length and push UE4 to it's maximum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  18. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the routes are in 1:1 scale, very recognisable and for the most part very close to reality as far as I can tell from real life experience or at least from Google Earth if the route in question is too far away to check in person.

    Now if DTG would build the whole route rather than only one half of it more often, I'd be much happier.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  19. iosman1234

    iosman1234 New Member

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    thanks my issue has been fixed.
     
  20. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    I think UE4 on the surface looks amazing and we’ve been wowed with it but it’s got a long way to go yet for core simulator fans that have been used to TS2020 etc.
     
  21. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I think they missed out on the basics and so the foundation is weak. The initial appearance and physics to me are less important than a well optimised, flexible and dynamic base game (compare the physics and look of Rail Simulator vs TS2020). What I mean by that is TSW on release should have had a basic Steam/Electric/Diesel physics model, a built in Editor, Steam Workshop support, and a flexible UI to allow addons to be easily added, managed and used in game. Once these things were in place, optimised and bug free, they could then have built on top of it.

    Instead the approach they took was to release a buggy, poorly optimised simulator which lacked basic features present in all previous industry leading train simulators. They then started to build a DLC library on top of these crumbling foundations. Now almost every update they do to fix things ends up breaking other things. Some old and new DLC can't work together because they are using different versions of physics modelling. There's still optimisation issues preventing existing DLC from being expanded with new DLC. Three years on and there's still no third party support or even a basic scenario Editor.

    It's a bloody mess in all honesty. Now I think they're probably too far down the road to recover it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  22. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I'd agree with this, but only because I think that the PC-centric "foundation" was forced from TS20xx into the cross-platform TSW. A square iron tent peg doesn't fit into a triangular group of round holes. If you try this, you'll get electrocuted.

    Slight problem here - for a cross platform title, as PS4 isn't connected to the Steam Workshop. TSW is different to TS20xx, at a fundamental level, not just because of UE, but because it is a cross-platform title.[/QUOTE]

    I don't perceive the same issues in quite the same way as you.... I think that the approach they took was to replicate a bare bones shell of a UI, taken directly from TS20xx in concept, and made it work as a basic "launcher" for content developed using UE....

    ....and then they allowed DLC to be developed (relatively in-house) in a relatively hap-hazard way, with no strict common standards applied, and no effective QA and QC. Each DLC is effectively a completely new UE simulator, each built to slightly different rules. If you add an Editor to the mix, for the purpose of helping third party developers, right now, and allow people to develop content to an even wider range of rules, and with even less QA/QC, and you find some means of pushing this content out to all customers across all three platforms.... then it will become complete and utter chaos. You might personally make a few hundred quid, but there'd be hundreds of thousands of upset people out there (on PS4, XBox and PC) wondering why nothing works in the way they expect - which is to say, flawlessly.

    If DTG take the path that you have been proposing, for your own personal benefit, then the mess you see now will look like Sheldon Cooper's apartment, compared to the mess that would be created.... (LOL - maybe that would be Penny's apartment then.... ;-) )
     
  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I know a few TV engineers, both BBC and ITV, and the funny thing is that they've been using BetaMax videotapes continuously, until relatively recently, to record their output at source. And that's even after the general public had long-since said goodbye to VHS....! It's all digital now, of course, even though the BBC's plans were massively delayed when their initial £100 million digitisation project completely failed.....


    EDITED TO ADD: As Callum points out below... these Sony BETA tapes that I referred to above were almost certainly industry-grade TV camera BetaCam and not BetaMax... LOL
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
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  24. Callum B.

    Callum B. Member

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    Not to completely tangent from the thread, but are you entirely sure that is true? Or do you mean BetaCam? It would be a curious thing if they did use Betamax.
     
  25. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    You're working on the basis of content pariety between console and PC, which I think is an error on DTG's part. By all means, create a train simulator for consoles, but it should have been a different game to the PC one. They could both use UE4 and use a lot of the same content, but they should have been distinctly different to cater properly for each market. Creating a single product for two very different markets and then ditching the tried and tested business model for the largest market is doomed to be a failure.

    PC and console are different markets, we're not entering into a new era where the two markets have merged, they remain distinctly different and should be catered to as such. Otherwise you're always going to be strangling one market to cater to the other. If you target two different products at two different markets you're going to be much better off than using a one size fits all approach; Especially when the two different products would share a lot of the same technology and content, with the main differences being in user content creation and gameplay style.

    I play TSW on console and on PC and I find that I play the game differently and want different things depending on which I'm playing.
     
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  26. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    LOL - Yes - Of course, you are right - they used BetaCam.... same family of products, but slightly more professional standard.... LOL

    Sorry - it's probably just Friday, or something... ;-O

    I was just surprised by how long they clung on to analogue.

    EDITED TO ADD: I am absolutely not a TV engineer myself, but the last time I was in the editing suite of a very large TV studio (just a few years ago), there wasn't a PC monitor in sight, just a bank of cassette machines at manual editing stations, with an odd monitor, and loads of sets of headphones...., and piles and piles of cassettes... I was quite surprised.... ;-O
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  27. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Would you feel more content if Dovetail:

    - continued to produce TS20xx for the PC market (as is); and
    - produced TSW for PS4, XBox, Switch, and basically every other platform else, except PC...

    The thing that has changed is that Dovetail has introduced a new cross-platform product, not a replacement product... and if that cross-platform product includes PC, as it does, then that's great....! That's just my take on it, of course.
     
  28. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    TSW was definitely intended as a replacement for TS2020. TSW was launched on PC first and then ported to consoles over a year later, so it wasn't launched as a cross-platform title. I don't think they should have ported it to consoles without changing some of the gameplay elements, simplifying the physics and using the resources saved to make the game look and perform better.

    BetaCam has been digital not analogue for years. If you're refering to fact it's magnetic tape, then it's not suprising that they would use it, especially for TV, as magnetic tape has an archival life of 30+ years which far exceedes any SSD/CD/DVD. Also until recently magnetic tape also had the fastest write speeds, so it was ideal for backing up data. In fact every office I have ever worked in has used a tape backup.
     
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  29. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Aaaaaah. Okay - that I didn't know. Can you point me to anywhere online where this is stated....? That TS20xx was to be replaced.... by TSW?

    If that is the case, then there is some strength in your argument. But if that is the plan, then I don't think that it will actually happen for a very very long time.... (that's not based on any prior knowledge... just a guess...). I actually think that it's more likely that TSW would be re-started, from scratch, for the next-gen consoles...... with TS20xx still going on, in the background. I am not saying that this will actually happen, just that it is more likely.... But then again, I am just an average punter, so I don't really know anything. ;-)
     
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  30. rosariabarone780

    rosariabarone780 Member

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    DTG is a company (reportedly not very large) that markets two simulations (and also something else).
    Result?
    A lot of approximation.
     
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  31. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    If you want to play semantics, you could say that Railworks wasn't a replacement for Rail Simulator, because it was never explicitly stated to be the case. You could say the same for Rail Simulator and MSTS.

    You have a product which has had over a million pounds spent on its development, it's billed as 'the future of train simulation,' it was announced that all the same features available in Railworks, and more, would be implemented in TSW, and you don't think TSW is intended to replace Railworks, a train simulator which was developed 14 years ago?

    Aside from that, internally TSW is refered to as TS2, because it's the successor to TS1.
     
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  32. MADxHAWK

    MADxHAWK Member

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    Running quite smoothly doesnt replace all functionality and there are many problems with functionality.
    1. signaling not working, or not working as intended signaling at least on the german routes
      when you realy meet a signal showing continue with reduced speed, showing HP 2 (wich is very rare) trackspeed is not limited, you can pass the signal with full speed and not even get a message of overspeed.
    2. boring timetable and careere scenarios. Most german routes are quite busy with a full shedule of fright and passanger trains. That leads to frighttrains often had to stop at platforms or evasive tracks to let passenger trains pass. not in TSW. you always have a free line not a single stop at a signal to let another train pass.
    3. Most parts of the rout are completly unused for example Hagen - Siegen cause there is no scenario editor and only default scenarios which doesnt use thse tracks. Seems like Dovetail dont even know by themself how to make a shunting scenario LoL
    4. LZB is not implemented which meast even we might get a route with LZB we need new Locos and cant use the old ones. At least if Dovetail continue from TS 20xx. I still have a bunch of Locos of the same type, for Example BR 101 one without anything and one with AFB/LFB/PZB.
    If dovetail will continue releaseing buggy LOVE which never get fixed (like they did with TS20xx) and dont release the Editor soon there is no future, at least from my side. I bought TSW and a few addons after they announced the release of the editor end of 2018 and just because of the announcement of the editor. Well meanwhile its Feb. 2020, The topic regarding the Editor is closed by the Moderators and ill guess they will never release it.
    In germany we call this misleading advertising what can result in legal actions and honestly im thinking about to legaly claim a refund because of misleading advertising.


    It is not only early access, its an early beta you pay full price for :/

    See above. Early access is ok when you dont pay the price of a full product amd it is announced as early access so you know bugs get fixed.
    From my experience with TS20xx Dovetail give a LOVE about reported bugs, i have quite a lot of routes with bugs which never got fixed.
    One i remind instantly is a piece of track with an unannounced 120km/h speed limit at Cologne - Duesseldorf where you normaly can drive 160km/h which makes careere scenarios nearly impossible.
     
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  33. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    There’s a lot of disappointment with TSW lets hope the new Microsoft Flight Simulator, is the bells and whistles and strategic approach that should be applied to games this side of the millennia. When I read threads here it does seem that we’re a few steps behind in terms of things such as third party support
     
  34. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Well-Known Member

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    Until TSW decides what It wants to be it wont no, this is probably as "good" as it will get till they solve its identity crisis.
     
  35. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I am not particularly interested in semantics, and I don't think that was something I was playing - it's too complicated for my very small brain to comprehend. I think I was just asking you to point to where DTG had explicitly said that TSW would replace TS20xx.

    Anyway, what I don't understand is how there are so many successful software titles in existence..... they can't all be specifically designed to provide you personally with a well-paying market for your hobby. How do they do that...? Um.... Maybe they don't need to.... just a thought.

    So - on the basis that it is possible to create successful software without lining the pockets of a very small number of people with very specific vested interests, that want to see TSW provide a new marketplace as a replacement for the saturated TS20xx marketplace (and where nothing else matters... at all...), then I think it is possible for TSW to be very successful, and quite possibly/probably alongside TS20xx.

    (NB: If 14 years of development from Railworks to TS20xx is encapsulated by the "TS1" acronym - if that's the important signifier that you believe is so important - then, I'd suggest that something called "TS2" could signify something completely different, and that "TS1" could continue to be used for TS2021, TS2022, TS2049.... etc.)

    Back to the OP's question - I think that TSW does, potentially, have a fabulous future as a fully vertically-integrated, but cross-platform title. But that's a future where the method for creating content (route and rolling stock) is at least initially properly standardised and kept under control in-house, and where those assets are effectively managed, and brought up to date in line with upgrades to the UE engine. I'm shocked that they haven't managed to achieve this with TSW already - so for now, I think that it would be a good idea for DTG to get the existing content under control and working reliably, before opening up TSW to all-comers that want to sell content with in-built functional variation that could quickly become impossible to track, irrespective of the fabulous talents of those third-party designers (which are not in question).

    Give TSW a few years to settle down, because it's probably at least two years away from becoming a stable product, and that's even if everyone makes that the immediate priority, starting now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
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  36. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Well-Known Member

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    TSW is literally called TS2Prototype on PC

    and how much time? its already been 3 years.
     
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  37. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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  38. Mr T

    Mr T Active Member

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    That's only because it's too hard to change the name in UE4 without breaking everything, or so I've been told.
     
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  39. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    LOL.... - Really - is that what people say....? Well - they could have changed the name before releasing a fully tested and finalised version of the software at launch, three years ago.... cos you aren't really meant to put prototypes into service until they are ready.....

    NAYDOG has a very good point. It is ridiculous that we are where we are, and when a patch comes out it now seems to break more things than it fixes... But unfortunately it looks like DTG is not in a position to develop a product for two to five years, and then release the title when it is actually ready... which is what most software houses do. There are still bugs in GWE - basic stuff... in the main content... it's crazy.
     
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  40. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    The reason is valid. I agree it’s dumb but every index to any asset at all has that naming in its line so if they changed it... well that is a lot of work.
     
  41. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    From what I hear not everyone at dtg is really passionate about trains so they’re doing basic development tasks for a check. Probably doesn’t help that the people who do care.. all their efforts are always trashed on here. It’s not their fault, it’s upper management for not releasing the content like we want it for whatever reasons be it legal or time constraints or money.
     
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  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well - I wouldn't take everyone's reported perception as being a completely unbiased factual representation of objective reality - especially when those perceptions are heart-breakingly emotionally involved, so to speak.

    On this - I completely agree with you. I genuinely think that the TSW devs are doing their absolute best (and probably working 100 hours each this week), and frankly, the artwork on TSW is in the pretty outstanding category. There is better artwork out there (Polyphony, etc...), but only when it has $100 millons behind it, and plenty of time allowed. I am not, however, convinced about the QA and process management - this is seemingly really very poor. Annoyingly, it's easy to fix.... (assuming that the devs get given the time/freedom to fix it....).
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    What a surprise, yet another DTG bashing thread!
     
  44. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well.... when the marketing hyperbole doesn't match up with lived experience.... then you get unsatisfactory feedback from people that have had raised expectations (for whatever reason). So, I can understand why some might want to question the delta.

    However, there is also a flavour of hope here - and if that hope is matched with courage then TSW has a great future. There's a great sample on LTJ Bukem's Logical Progression, quoting a poem by Maya Angelou, which goes:

    "Each new hour holds new chances for new beginnings..... The horizon leans forward, offering you space to place new steps of change."

    ...and some things, with TSW, really do need to be changed, for the TSW title to meet its true full potential.
     
  45. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I imagine that's fairly true of most businesses. I know many people who wanted a route into a magazine editorial career and had to work their way though specialist industry publications on the way up without an ounce of passion for their title's content. Warehouse Racking Monthly, anyone? I'm sure a lot of the programmers at DTG would love to be coding their own space blaster MMO, rather than trying to work out why some signalling glitch in somebody else's old code isn't working as it should be.

    Are you suggesting they need to get their marketing team to manage people's expectations more?...
    "Buy our new route! It has less new content than you'd hope and more bugs than you'd expect."
     
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  46. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Well-Known Member

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    given DTG wages it does seem very much a starter studio for graduates/new artists rather than a hotbed of experience. which explains why some of it seems so woefully done/under-utilized engine wise.
     
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  47. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 New Member

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    ÿes i see
     
  48. solon

    solon Active Member

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    It's an alpha game (damn, sorry I confuse with Star Citizen )
     
  49. SaMa1

    SaMa1 Member

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    According to the public full accounts from Companies House https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06751125/filing-history the RailSimulator.com (Dovetail Games is only a trade name) has been doing fine at least last year. They have 140 personnel in total with turnover of £16.4 M and profit of £647000 . This indicates they have plenty of room to adjust to changing situations and based on these numbers I would say there is definitely a future for TSW.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  50. solon

    solon Active Member

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    I will be curious to know the share of sales of TSW in this profit. DTG does not only have TSW, I think it is mainly its other games that bring profit, including TS. Otherwise they would have a more ambitious roadmap.
     

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