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Is This Game Have A Great Future?.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by iosman1234, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Is that with or without the £1.1million Video Games Tax Relief credit for 2019? We should all be grateful to the UK Tax Payers for TSW.
     
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think this settles the OP's question. Turnover in one year is, of course, meaningless as a number by itself and indeed, so is profit for one year.

    But when you look at the trend across a number of years, including the shift out of large net losses, investment in infrastructure compared to debt, and the trend showing a now rapidly recovering equity position, then the the current trend (according to these filings) looks very good compared to recent history.

    Another corner turned (potentially) is that TSW doesn't currently have to rely on third-party content developers to drive sales of a content "launcher"... I would very much hope that they keep this arrangement in place (controlling the content), in order to fully exploit (and satisfy) the console market. So, TSW has got a great future - and it might even be helping to keep TS20xx alive.

    DTG could get tripped up by Microsoft at some point, but I think that the world of really nice looking train simulators is safe for quite a while.

    Yay....! ;-)
     
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  3. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with tax incentives for UK digital creative industries. There are some now fairly profitable software houses that started in the UK as very small outfits, but are now making significant tax contributions that wouldn't have happened if they were all strangled at birth.

    As an aside - as a third party developer for TS1, I am assuming that you declared all of your income to HMRC....?
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You really are obsessed with their finances.

    You have stated you had applied to work there several times, if I recall, which means you personally might have also benefited from that money!
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  5. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Precisely, lots of start ups have benefited from grants or a "leg up", I don't see why it has become an topic for discussion or what the agenda is!
     
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  6. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I'd go further than this. It's great to have a number of people that have life-long experience in and passion for a subject, but you also have to have people that are simply skilled to carry out a task (programming, modelling, marketing, whatever....), and people that can do it quickly and effectively, irrespective of their personal interests. So, if you have a bunch of graphic artists and programmers that are not "railfans" but are specialists in porting a title from one platform to another, and if that is potentially something that they find exciting, and are keen to do well - then that is far better than only having people that love the subject, and talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. When I catch a flight to Cairo, I want the pilot to be a trained pilot, and not a historian or expert in Egyptian antiquity.

    LOL - not quite... I could just refer you to what happened to the Marketing Department at the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.... but with TSW, I simply expect the claims to bear some semblance to reality, so an easy example is the use of the word "accessible" for the new OSD DLC - I would now expect the OSD DLC to have the following "accessible" characteristics:

    - you can easily find the DLC on the Playstation Store, as a DLC associated to the base game, and not have to explicitly search for it because someone forgot to link it;
    - there is a manual, and that manual is provided for players on all platforms;
    - people are told where the manual is, if it isn't accessible from the game itself;
    - the training modules can be started, easily followed (in supported languages), and completed;
    - the training modules have been stress-tested for absolute beginners, including the lady in the canteen and her grandson, and are not vulnerable to cognitive bias such as "Curse of Knowledge/Expertise"; and,
    - some effort is made to explain what it is that you are meant to do, how you can do it well, and how well you have done when you have tried, and for that assessment to be meaningful.

    I could go on, but I would expect the above very basics to be covered, as an absolute minimum.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  7. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I've never said it's a bad thing. Only, that if the profitability of a company hinges on government handouts, it's a fairly precarious position, as governments chop and change frequently on such things.

    I think DTG would be in a better position if they were turning a profit without government handouts. That's my point. As it stands the government could announce a new budget where video game developers tax credits are abolished and DTG would go bust.
     
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  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    No hinges, so no problem.

    If you charted the fundamentals from the DTG filings, then you would discover that very soon, possibly within two months from now, the position will look really quite good... I'd very happily buy shares in this company right now.

    No. No it wouldn't.

    ------------------
    I do hope that you get over your issues. Why can't you just look back and think:

    1. "Wow, I played a computer game that was almost made specifically for me, I never did like Doom II......"

    2. "And then they allowed me to make loads of money from the game, by drawing a few pictures of trains."

    3. "I made a load of money out of it, and had fun at the same time."

    4. "The incoming money has dried up a bit, but it was good while it lasted, and I can still have a bit of fun. I am certainly no worse off than when the game came out in the first place."

    Does that help?
     
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  9. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    I think this is something of a mis-characterization of the "pro-editor" lobby. I've used the editor on TS1 to create a total of 4 workshop scenarios, and for reasons that I don't fully understand I haven't yet received my "load of money". I'd like to see an editor for two reasons mainly. First, because user-created scenarios could add some much-needed variety (especially in terms of using locos on the routes that they we're really designed for). Second because I think third-party developers might be a bit more adventurous and a bit less risk averse, and might push forward with things like steam locos which it looks like DTG are avoiding for the moment.

    I do get that some people do complain about it a lot, but I think most of us just feel it'd be a better game with editor-produced content.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Creation: I don't have a problem, at all, with anyone that wants an Editor for TSW.... for making their own user-edited content, for their personal use, except that I'd like to see TSW first developed to the point where it is a pretty decent cross-platform title. So for me it's about priorities and timing - first fix the basic stuff like the UI, including its ability to, um..... "count" stuff . I really can't imagine why anyone want to have an Editor released (for any purpose at all) that's in a worse state than the current base game.

    Sharing: Some time later, you could then consider a way for users to share their created content - and that's potentially quite difficult on PS4 and possibly XBox. Liveries and skins based on existing content should be easy enough. Scenarios based on existing content would be a bit trickier. New rolling stock and new routes even more tricky. All possible, maybe, within a fully contained TSW ecosystem - but that would require a much more complex base game. It would be two orders of magnitude more complicated. You wouldn't just have to QA and support existing content, you'd also have to QA and support the system for creating content...

    Trading: Trading content is in a completely different league, when it comes to the cross-platform nature of TSW. Stuff that gets traded through PlayStation Store generally has to meet some basic level of QA. The expectations are much much higher, than what has been traded for TS1 in the past. And if a software company with 140 people that originates content plus an Editor for new content, is currently having difficulty with basic standards or is constantly sailing very close to the wind, then opening that up to everyone, to trade, any time soon, looks to me to be a disaster waiting to happen - and it wouldn't have to wait long after release for that disaster, based on recent events.

    GREAT NEWS: In the meantime, everyone that wants to create, share and trade, can do so with TS1/TS20xx.

    Characterisation: Yes - you hit the nail upon the head here. It is important to not conflate a more general desire from a wider group of TS1/TSW fans to create content and/or share it, with those few more vociferous people with a much greater vested interest (than say, yourself) that want to create content and trade it. And some literally just want to trade it. There's that guy on YouTube who always complains about TSW being made available to "console users", as if "console users" are some special kind of scum.... oh.... and look... he's got a website for trading TS1 DLCs.... what a coincidence....! It's trebly annoying because it is really looking like it is TSW that is now supporting the very existence of TS20xx, and that the income is mostly coming from PS4 and XBox players.

    Grapes: What I find difficult......, and I accept that I could be viewed by some as a bit of a hypocrite in saying this.... - is that it is a little rough to bash DTG just because they have not yet provided yet another market-place for the very few (very talented) people that are able to produce a basic wagon and sell it for, say, £14,000, and then to explicitly complain about (or "note") the industry incentives that enabled those few people to do that in the first place. It's barmy. It's barmy sour grapes. With absolutely no gratitude.... and that really squeezes my grape, so to speak.... ;-)

    TSW has got a great future. And yes, although a lot of us are getting a lot older, seemingly more and more quickly, and might be in a bit of a hurry to see the next stages..... everything comes to those that wait (....and happen to live long enough....). ;-)

    THANK YOU: Two childhood dreams of mine were to see a photo-realistic car driving simulator that was better than Out Run, and something similar for trains that would be even better than Southern Belle, and to live long enough to see it. And I have lived long enough to see both... with Gran Turismo and Train Sim World. So thank you to Polyphony... and thank you to DTG....!
     
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  11. MADxHAWK

    MADxHAWK Member

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    Oh Wow, and they just advertise a new Add-On for TSW, the
    Canadian National Oakville Subdivision: Hamilton - Oakville Route Add-On
    You get full 24 !! (in words twentyfour) miles of track, oh and the rout contains miles of yardtracks, sadly no one can use them cause there is no damn editor to make scenarios and use those tracks.
    and everything for just 30 Bucks.

    Sometimes it feeld like DoveTail is an asian company, they also dont care what their customers think, all that counts is sell, sell, sell, they just dont have learned that satisfied customers are returning customers. At least for me TSW is dead as long as there is no editor.

    Oh and dont underestimate the playerbase ok TSW is running under UE4 and need the UE4 editor but people learn fast.
    Ark Survival was released as early access with an UE4 editor and in no time people made fantastic mods for it, so saying uhhh no one will be able to make stuff cause its UE4 is BS. Ill guess it will only take a few days befor the first stuff would be available and for sure much more interesting than the stuff that comes with the routes...
     
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  12. arapajoe3

    arapajoe3 Member

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    Making a critique of this game is hard because I really like it, and anyone who likes trains and simulation. but again they take out new locomotives for really high prices for simply a locomotive and also the routes. I think it is a bad strategy on the part of the developer, the game has hundreds of bugs in all the routes that do not fix, do not offer new content for free, that is, updates that add more content without paying. maybe make longer routes or join routes to complete a large one. And worst of all are the prices, a locomotive 14 euros? It should be between 5 and at most 10, not to mention the famous editor that never comes... if the developer does not listen to its consumers, the game will probably end up being obsolete. I personally if the dlc's are not on offer at an acceptable price, I will not buy it. if you see other simulation games and the wide variety of things and tools that the user has to create content maybe this game would be better ... so they will see how they conduct this during this year 2020 ..
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Making assumptions is a generally dangerous thing to do, but I do make one assumption about people that read this Forum, and especially people that write on this Forum - and my assumption is this:

    With the exception of a very small handful of people with very deep vested financial interests (either now, past or future), everyone that interacts with this Forum really likes trains, really likes TSW (and/or TS2020), and really wants DTG to be successful in making train simulator software in the future.

    Negative views that you see on these Forums almost always come from a position that is, at heart, passionately positive about the game. So don't be afraid to critique the game, in any way. I know that you are "one of us", so to speak.

    That said - pricing strategy is for DTG to decide, because it is their business. I personally think it is a mistake to sell content at the prices they sell it for, now that the title has come to console. But - I think it is probably necessary for them to do it for now, given their current structure (which I assume is still largely based on the TS2020 model). I'd personally prefer DTG to move to a different model, with a very much wider base of players, but not everyone wants that in their own "ideal world", even if that much wider base of players is necessary for the survival of TSW and TS2020 for everyone in the real world.

    It might take a number of years, depending on how DTG negotiate with semi-independent content creators, before DTG can lower their prices to the consumer. In the meantime - I hope that they take some of the money that they made from console sales of TSW, and use it develop the UI so that it is attractive to console players, so that they can hold a place in that market. If they can make a bit more money, they might then take more of a risk, and invest more in their own internal content creation (although some 2nd/3rd party devs might not be happy about this). Then they would be in a better position to centralise and standardise their processes and their digital assets, making it all initially more robust, easier to maintain, and easier to upgrade. And you'd get a better train simulator for everyone, across all platforms, that is sustainable. That's what I hope for, because I want to be playing TSW until at least 2050, which is when all the world's electricity gets switched off.

    In any event - the people with the best data for pricing the DLCs are DTG. Nothing that anyone says here will change the price of DLC that is sold tomorrow. The only thing that would change the pricing would be based on what the spreadsheet says, based on sales data, and demand-yield projections. And, apparently, when Sony or Microsoft decide to do a sale...
     
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  14. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Was this thread really had a great past?
     
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  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - I think so...! And I think the evidence for the great future for DTG continues to build and build - take a look at this:

    https://dovetailgames.com/vacancies

    All of the TSW related vacancies here seem to address most of the issues that need to be fixed/developed with TSW, including:

    - introducing QA and QC processes that have a chance to be effective;
    - developing their own train-related content, so there's a chance it might work cross-platform;
    - developing gameplay features, to make the simulator appeal to a wider market; and,
    - progressing to building with the latest UE4 features.

    It's all good news. So I am actually chucking a few more hundred quid into DTG's pot in the next week or so, by buying lots and lots of their TS2020 content (SoLon and everything that can work on it...). And maybe another Caltrain shunter for TSW...

    But I would still like to see someone get their finger out and fix the Facebooking DB BR 155, so that it works on RSN, on the PS4.
     
  16. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's a lot of vacancies. They've either had a mass exodus lately or are expanding :) Hopefully they can hire some talented people to these positions.
     

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