It Genuinely Makes Me Sad That This Is Available On Consoles.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by tdurb0, May 7, 2021.

  1. tdurb0

    tdurb0 New Member

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    I'll never ever `switch', I'll at best 'have both', and will probably still use TS20xx 90/10% of the time, mainly due to route lengths. TSW2 is THAT close to be ironed out, and finished, but so was TSW1. Such a shame.
    In order, for me, are route lengths, amount of activity on route, amount of workshop items not requiring random added stock from AP or wherever. It makes driving what sounds like the best scenario out there then suddenly BOOM, not without a 3 year old AP digital download. It genuinely guts me to miss out on so much stuff, or more of it was standardised.
     
  2. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Really? So you mean I can realistically reskin a loco, using imported images, and then save it out and share it so that others can easily download it and install it? You mean there's a 3rd party community of developers making hundreds of routes and assets for it? If I get an urge to make a scenario using real timetables, based on... oh, I dunno... the one off SkyTV liveried Mk4DVT/Class 91 set and drive it from Edingburgh to King's Cross in a thunder storm, complete with lightning... non-stop along the entire route.... can I do that in TSW2? How about an old Northern liveried 156 from Manchester Piccadilly to Huddersfield... can I do that? Can I edit the world, and create routes of my own? Can I make my own models and import them into the sim? Can I edit things to my liking, such as sound files? If a tree is annoying me in a route, can I remove it? I can in TS.. I can literally press CTRL+E right there and then while driving the route and edit it if I want.

    If the answer is no to these (and other) questions, then it's not even close to being finished IMO.

    The reason third party, open development is essential is that without it, you'll NEVER get the wealth of routes and rolling stock. For instance, do you really think DTG will spend time and effort to include the Fylde line? Of course not... a short branch line.. why should they bother? If they did, will it include the long since closed Fleetwood line so you can run historical scenarios from I.C.I? No. Things like DP Simulations North East route... you reckon that would ever seen the light of day? Gu Studio's Breckland Line? Not a chance.

    If it allowed all this stuff, and basically did what TS20xx did, it would be amazing... well... apart from the rubbish draw distance issue of course, but the fact is, as it is, it's a crap console game. It's light years behind TS20xx in terms of content and features, and accuracy.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  3. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand the title "It Genuinely Makes Me Sad That This Is Available On Consoles"
    What is available on Consoles and why are you sad about it?
    Obviously not TS2021
     
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  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I can only imagine that he or she feels that being developed for consoles mean it's limited as a PC game as a result, which I kind of agree with. It was clearly developed with consoled in mind, not the PC. Simple things like not being able to even type text into the livery editor, or even import fonts. Can't do that on a console, so you can't have it on the PC either. Talking of which... can't import images either... because doing that on a console would be a pain in the ass. It's a console game, and as such, is limited.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I take the view that anyone that is sad about the (vast majority of) revenue coming in from consoles to help develop Train Sim World for all platforms (including PC) can easily make themselves much happier by:

    - making a financial proposition to DTG and DTG's investors, to make the TSW title PC exclusive; and
    - provide a substantial ongoing annual subsidy to replace the lost revenue stream from consoles.

    You'd only need to donate a few £million a year to subsidise the development on PC.

    So, it appears, that money can bring happiness, after all. Simples. ;-)
     
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  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    No one, including me said it should be PC exclusive. Personally I'm not bothered; I don't play TSW. I'm just putting forward a suggestion as to why the OP may be sad.
     
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  7. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Fair point...! I would say that there are other paths to happiness. We could have, for example:

    1. No Train Sim World at all, so nothing to get sad about (ignorance is bliss, so they say....!).
    2. TSW(PC edition) and TSW(Console edition) , as entirely distinct products (maybe give them different names)

    So, with option 2, the PC edition could have all of the gizmos that PC players expect, making them very not sad.

    But.... with option 2, I would expect all of the revenues from the TSW Console edition to only be re-invested in developing the console version. Because that is where you would get most revenue increase and RoI, because that is where the sales are.

    Consequently, I reckon the console version would get developed further and faster - and better. And in that scenario, I would guess that very quickly, some PC owners will be wanting the TSW Console edition to be made into a PC game. Which, I think, would put us back in square one.

    So - maybe it is all just fine as it is.....? ;-)
     
  8. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I bet DTG love it when their customer base argues itself into acceptance, makes their job so much easier being absolved of any responsibility to a community that has spent quite possibly 100's of thousands of pounds/dollars collectively on a product everyone seems damn sure is going to get swept under the carpet in the next x amount of years!
     
  9. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    No. It's a pile of manure. Nice shiny manure... but manure nonetheless, which is why I played it for 47 hours, then uninstalled it.
    54634563456.JPG
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  10. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed parts of TSW 2020 when you could use different traction in normal scenarios.
    Running the WSR 33 over NTP was quite enjoyable having to thrash the loco to keep time.
    33_Mirfield.jpg

    33_HUD.jpg
    But DTG took that away from us with the latest version
     
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  11. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I'm a veritable veteran compared to you.. :D:D
    Image5.jpg
    I don't own TSW2, I've not watched a stream or youtube video yet that has even remotely tempted me to part with my dolla

    Edit:
    I was trying to figure out why I'd played it on July the 4th (a memorable day seeing as it's my birthday) then I remembered, ahh, birthday, drink, drunk, mis-clicked TSW instead of TS :D:D:cool:
     
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  12. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I blame Andrew Hewson for the position that we are in now. When he made Southern Belle for the ZX Spectrum, he should have realised that the burden of responsibility then fell directly on his shoulders to ensure that train simulation games developed in an absolutely perfect way for everyone, at all times, over the next fifty years. No - make that five thousand years.

    It's all the fault of Hewson Consultants, totally failing to meet up to their responsibilities. That is where it all started..... Mr Hewson must be thoroughly ashamed of himself that he let the train simulation genre degenerate into a position where we have to survive with TS2012 and Train Sim World 2. And to think that he went on to make Pinball games instead of train simulators....! It's truly disgusting.

    The world is in a bad state, not only do we have climate change, pandemics and possible nuclear war between the US and China, we also have the very saddening situation where indpendent companies feel that they can just go ahead, at their own behest, and make software on computing devices that are not running MS Windows (as well as making them for devices that are running MS Windows).

    Microsoft themselves should shoulder also some of the blame for this situation. How dare they introduce Train Simulator software, and then abandon it, leaving it in the hands of a bunch of enthusiastic developers (that have done a particularly awesome job over 15 years), when they could have thrown just a few hundred million dollars at the project, and kept it going under their name, and exclusive to their specific operating system only.

    It's truly shocking.
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that you only played the TSW 2 game for 47 hours (forty seven hours)..... because it wasn't worth your while playing it for more than 47 hours, and that dipping into 48 hours or more would be too much..., but it took you 47 hours to decide that the software was disappointing.... the first 47 hours were reasonably good fun, but 48... nope... can't do a 48th hour.... cos you've had enough at 47 hours....?

    Or....

    ..... are you saying, "Hey, wow, I bought this TSW 2 game for £25 (or maybe a bit less), and I got 47 hours out of it.... like that's about three times longer than the average story length in most AAA games (which is about 16 hours), if you play them through to the end. What a fabulous and extremely good value game...!"



    I only ask because I I wasn't sure what you meant. I think you'll find that 99.9% of developers would be absolutely delighted if their customers played any of their £25 products for 47 hours. That's like two hours per day, for nearly a month, day in, day out.
     
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  14. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Hah, I don't think anybody has ever so spectacularly missed my point as you have just done, well done, good job sir.
     
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  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    LOL, well then EITMLIA5...... Explain It To Me Like i Am Five.... (because funnily enough, that is my mental age). ;-)
     
  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, yes. I uninstalled it.
    I'm not seeing your point. I got bored after 47 hours because I'd done everything. I'd done teh scenarios... and the time table scenarios were identical... just at different times. I got fed up with walking around looking for posters etc.. I'd driven all the traction (I also bought the Trans Pennine route along with the base game). 47 hours is not that long. I've clocked up thousands of hours in TS20xx.

    No. I'm not saying that, because it's not a game, it's a simulator. It doesn't have a storyline, or narrative. There is no end level boss. A simulator shouldn't have an "end". It took 47 hours to run every scenario, and drive every train, and then I got bored of it because there was so little DLC. There still is, as I've literally no interest in US or European traction.
    I think you'll find developers of simulation software would be horrified by such a minuscule amount of time. Not just simulators either; as many FPS games have deathmatch and PvP content. Also, some games are so good, you play them again and again, like I have with Portal and Portal 2. I still play the original Quake to this day.... TWENTY FIVE years after I first played it.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  17. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree. Some games are really good. And I have re-purchased and replayed Quake and Portal/Portal 2* (see note below). And although it is truly wonderful to find the gems, I think it is unreasonable to expect every future game to be a gem that you play for thousands of hours, or to be made to a specification that fulfils everyone's dreams, perfectly, all of the time. Such expectations are unrealistic, and if they generate "genuine sadness", then the ongoing massively exploding mental health problems in the modern world will go on and on, unabated, because such expectations will never ever be satisfied.

    Casual observation: [I am starting to suspect that this thread is really "Where is the Editor?" thread in disguise.]

    Random aside: [When I was younger, I spent thousands of hours pushing toy cars around a circuit boundaried by a broom, some shoes, and random bits of furniture. What I really wanted, of course, was GT Sport, Assetto Corsa, and Project Cars 2, on a 55" TV screen. But unfortunately I had to wait a bit.]

    Back to the point - Forty seven hours is (in my experience) the sign of an extremely good value game - even if you have played thousands of hours in the previous version of it, or thousands of hours in a different game. in this case, TSW did not turn out to be a thousand-hour gem for you - but it was a 47 hourer......

    Back to the topic (I think ?): TSW (or TSW 2) is what it is. It did not have to exist. But some investors convinced DTG, with a large chunk of cash that they were prepared to risk, to port TS2012 and their fishing stock to UE, and then on to consoles. And it paid off, and they've made a huge chunk of cash. And TS2012 benefits from this, because TSW pays for the offices, electricity, pantry supplies (I wonder what they do about the pantry in lock-down - do staff get free deliveries...?).

    And TS2012 is, relatively speaking (for a ten year old game), healthy, with new releases. And this is where I really put my cards on the table - TS2012 is SO GOOD, that I fully expect to be playing it for the next 30 years, preferably 40 years if they do something about increasing the font sizes on the HUD. TS2012 is (currently) a far better simulator than TSW, it has better gameplay where you really have to concentrate, more flexibility, and a wider range of DLC/mods (it has been around for ten years), and it has the Editor, with all the personal and community creativity options that come with it. It is a true marvel. TS2012 also has (in my opinion) better lighting and shadow management, and (I know most disagree with me on the next point)... better graphics than TSW, and a far more realistic colour palette, skies, etc. (TSW sometimes feels a little bit too much like Quake...).

    But I do like to kick back on my sofa, and play TSW. It's hyper relaxing. It has different immersion - I like to walk around rolling stock - it evokes a lot of memories for me, walking around at track level (in a way that TS2012 doesn't quite match).

    TSW and TS2012 are different games. And like the OP said, I will have both, thank you very much. Will TSW ever satisfy everyone's dreams...... well... for that.... we'll have to wait for a bit. It might take another ten years, or more.

    I am genuinely happy that TSW came to consoles. Because I tried TSW first (it was the gateway drug...), and that led me on to trying TS2012 on PC...... It will take a long time for TSW to catch up with TS2012, and it is possible that it never will (in terms of features). But there is a chance that it will, if the console players keep supporting TSW with their cash (but it might need enough cash for DTG to develop/buy their own game engine..... ;-O ).

    ---------------------------------------

    *NB: Have you tried the massive new Portal 2 mod ("Portal Reloaded"), available on Steam? I have downloaded it, but not got to it yet. And the Chaos guys are bringing out a full Portal Community Edition editor later in the year.... Happy days...! '-)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  18. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    In a way, yes, because the limited editing ability is one (but not the only) reason there's such a dearth of content available for TSW.


    Which, for a simulator (not a game), is terrible.

    Indeed. It's good... but lacks the meta-narrative that the actual games had.
     
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  19. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Here's me sat here with only 7 games on Steam that I have played for more than 100 hours of which only 1, maybe 2 could be classed as 'simulators'. Heck, I've paid upwards of £40-£50 on games I haven't even played for 12 hours and I still feel like I've gotten good value out of some of those. I will agree that TSW does lack content, but when TS has well over a decade's worth of near-constant content behind it it is hardly surprising that TSW will feel lacking in comparison. To me, however, TS feels archaic and counterintuitive at times, I play it mainly for specific content that TSW doesn't have (usually GEML or Manchester-Liverpool). There's a reason my combined playtime of TSW is much larger than that of TS.
     
  20. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It's been out for years. It's not a new game, and that's not the reason there's no 3rd party development. TS, by the time it was around for as long as TSW has been, had loads of 3rd party content.
     
  21. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like that is to be expected when switching over to a new and much more complex game engine to be fair
     
  22. IronBladder

    IronBladder Well-Known Member

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    I bought TSW on release. I was appalled at the lack of optimisation and terrible graphics as everything had to be set to min while still getting jerk-o-vision. I played it for 1.5 hrs and got a refund.

    I still feel resentment at the pumped up pre-release hype and promises that led to such massive disappointment for me. I now realise that broken promises and disappointment are an enduring part of the franchise, so it will take a lot for me to trust it again. Currently it offers me no reason to give up TS2021 as TS2021 does everything better than TSW/TSW2, as far as I can tell. And I have no console.

    If you like TSW, that's fine. Have happiness with it, I don't begrudge you that. But if your interest is railways, I think you'll find TS2021 is currently a better, deeper and more adaptable product.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  23. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me they tried cutting corners by using unreal, I feel they'd have been better off developing and building upon their already established standalone game engine instead of trying to make unreal fit TS's needs.
     
  24. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Where would they have got the money from to do that development....? Who would have invested in it...? What significant new development would you have done to TS2012...?

    And if they did try to do any significant development (and they magically got the money for it), what would they do about the ten years of community developed TS2012 routes and mods that would suddenly not work, if they even breathed on Railworks 3?

    UE serves a single purpose. It makes cooking TS2012 content to the console market really easy - and accessing that market means accessing vast amounts of sales (and currently, in a genuine monopoly).

    Consequently, we get an assured life extension to TS2012. And I am very "not sad" about that.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I sympathise and agree with you on all of that. Thankfully, I came to TS2012 after TSW launched - so I missed out on all of the bollards-style hype (which I know upset a huge amount of people). They are working on that, but old habits seemingly die hard.... one presenter on the RailFanTV internet stream was recently asked a question to which the true answer was "No". But the answer given was something like "Yes. Of course we will. Maybe. When we can we will. Okay - I mean No. No, we won't be doing that." Totally madness.....!!

    Aside from the ability to walk around as an avatar, TSW does have one benefit over TS2012. You generally get a decent standard of audio - or, at least, it is more consistent. Because it is on console, they can't do a "Class 89" (a very recent TS2021 DLC by DTG) - because nobody is able to come along and provide an audio enhancement pack on Playstation, involving a reference to half a dozen other DLCs. Some might disagree with me, but I regard this as a very good thing. And the DB BR 101 and Class 465 are prime examples of audio done extremely well in TSW 2.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  26. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    There are absolutely improvements that can be made to TSW, but I think adopting a widespread and popular game engine was a smart move. For an entirely new game limiting yourself to upgrading what is, in reality, a fairly obsolete game engine instead of adopting a current, popular and up to date one makes little sense. At the end of the day, all game development is built on compromise, a game cannot do all things to all people. TSW is not inherently worse than TS, and TS is not inherently worse than TSW. The notion that only one is truly worthy for railway enthusiasts is pointless and does not do anyone any favours. People enjoy things in the ways they want to and we should respect that, embrace it even as each new person that finds enjoyment train simulators, no matter what game it is, is a benefit to us all.

    We each have the choice to pick the game we, as individuals, enjoy most. Pitting one against the other to prove which is the 'better' game or the more 'accurate' simulator does little besides sowing the seeds of resentment within the community. We should simply enjoy what we enjoy, and respect the same of other people. The debate over which is better and why has no answer, they are simply different approaches to the same end.

    To put it simply, we are all here to enjoy trains, we all share that and we should celebrate it. 'My game is better than your game' gets us nowhere.
     
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