Just Trains - Blackpool - Preston - Ormskirk Official Thread

Don`t worry JT. There are plenty on here who only concentrate on what the DLC does not have.....

This DLC is somewhat Ironic for me. I hated the Pacers in my spotting youth. Hateful little things. Noisy, uncomfortable pieces of junk.
Nearly 40 years on, I am looking forward to driving one. Go figure.

 

Fair enough, I'm still going to buy the route as it looks superb! I was just a bit dissapointed finding out that the 101 sounds were being used for the TL11 powerd units.

 

I'm hardly focusing on what it does't have, I only mentioned that I was dissapointed in the use of the 101 sounds for the 142. I was hardly writing the whole thing off was I?!

Jesus wept......

 

Please calm Down. It was not aimed at you. I was replying to JT`s post, and we crossed over posting at the same time. I forget to use the reply button..

 

It sounds good, obviously having 100% accurate audio would be preferable. But most reasonable understand that it's not the easiest thing in the world to source audio for trains, especially ones that are no longer in mainline use. For me personally, as long as it sounds believable, and is of good quality with no obvious issues or interference, I'm happy.

 

Even though the Pacer do have the 101 sounds I'm still quite happy with the 3 livery's, the guard panels working, the bouncing, and it's a great model. Plus I am a little disappointed that the T11 will have the wrong sounds but that's understandable because you can't just go on to free mode and spawn a pacer with that engine and then record the sounds for it. One more thing to add is Layland bus's are still a thing with that engine but maybe that they weren't able to access that bus. Anyways I will definitely be buying this and putting it on to Tees Valley Line.

 

Unfortunately you were incorrect here. 101 sounds were used while mixing.

 

Thanks for replying and confirming.

I will still continue to purchase your DLC due to how fantastic it looks and how proud you are as a team for what you have achieved.

Your enthusiasm is second to none, so fair play.

 

Sounds are never the be all and end all for me (I also have 0 remembrance of the actual pacer sounds in real life, so I don’t think I would even notice tbh) and it sounds like you have done a great job with trying to get as accurate as possible what and wherever you could.

I’m Very much looking forward to the 14th.

 

Just watched the previews because despite the time period not being my thing, I was curious.

I'm glad I did. Because now I know to stay the heck away from this route.

How on earth do people consider these 142 sounds acceptable?? It's not just that they're bad, but also reused from literally the least appropriate DMU in the game. 142s used to serve my local station so I'm painfully familiar with how they sound, so I cannot get past this.

Even if I could, is no one gonna talk about the physics? I've never known a 142 to be so quick off the line. Not only that, but has no one noticed it appears to have some of the 101s physics too? You can clearly hear and see the train changing gears like the 101 does. That's why I said it's the least appropriate DMU in the game to recycle. At least with the 150 or 158, that issue wouldn't be present.

I wouldn't buy this route for a fiver with the pacer in such a state. The train is always the most important part of an add on in my opinion, and if you're going to do a route with the worst DMU Britain has ever created, at least do it right.

 

The 101 and 142 both had Leyland engines, so certainly more appropriate than the 158 or the 150. The original 142 setup also did have self changing gears automatic gearbox, and you could hear them shift.

You definitely seem to be massively in the minority with your thoughts on the route. The physics look fine, it's a light and small train, and it accelerates slower than most of the other stock in the game.

 

I'm assuming 142s served your station until retirement, as that explains why the ones previewed don't sound familiar to you. Class 142s have gone through an engine and transmission change since 1986 (from Leyland TL11's + Self-Changing Gears to Cummins LTA10-R's+ Voith T 211 r) which explains the more 101-ey sounds and physics. Hopefully during the preview stream they'll show off the Cummins engine variant which should sound more familiar to you.

Edit: Here's a video of a 142 leaving Sheffield with the original engine + transmission as a reference to how they originally sounded -

 

I live in the Welsh valleys, so we did indeed have them to the bitter end. I'll wait and see what the preview stream shows, but it'll be a hard sell.

 

I assume that there is no torque limiter on the 142 so starting full throttle on first gear on a dry rail should give some acceleration with the Pacer, like the video shows. I'm not surprised.

The Pacer has a pretty average power to weight ratio but the SCG gearbox should give some acceleration at starting on first gear.

 

I think a lot of people are getting the different 142 power units confused. Replacement of the Leyland engines with the Cummins engines began only a few years after the 142s entered service, and they’ve had Cummins engines for 30 year since. As a result most people’s memories will be of the Cummins engines, which sound totally different and don’t have the gear changes.

I’ve probably been on a TL11 engined unit at some time long ago, but I have zero memory of it so can’t comment on how realistic the sounds on the video are. I look forward to hearing the sounds of the Cummins version, and for reasons of nostalgia, that’s the one I’ll be using when the game comes out.

 

Indeed, they are getting confused and are assuming that the Pacer should sound like a class 150/158. Even Armstrong Powerhouse were not aware of the original engine/gearbox configuration until they were developing their second version of the class 142 for TSC.

It is likely that the Leyland TL11 engine has some lineage going back to the Leyland engines fitted to the class 101 so they may well not have sounded dissimilar.

Whilst it would be great to have the exact sounds sometimes compromises have to be made. It certainly won't stop me buying this route.

 

Especially since as far as I am aware, there are no surviving 142s with TL11s still installed. So you can't record them. Plus the fact that they didn't actually have TL11s for all that long, and due to how long ago that was any recordings then are probably not great quality wise.

So your only realistic options for audio are 1. A class 101, which used Leyland engines. 2. Find a Leyland bus with a similar engine.

 

There is the experimental railbus still surviving and the class 140 prototype Pacer. I assume they have the original engine and transmission configuration but I don't know if they are even running. I think there might be a class 141 with the original engine and/or transmission but I think that is out of service.

I am sure someone will come along to say JT shouldn't have made the train if they couldn't get the correct sounds. It sounds good enough to me, personally.

 

I am sure someone will say that lol, such a bad argument.
Sounds fine to me as well, as long as it sounds believable, and is of good audio quality I am happy.

 

I agree with this too.. the whole process of this route (the communication from JT, the scenery shots, and practically everything else) has been outstanding so far, yet the slightest issue and some say that it's completely ruined.. like if 99%+ of the route is spot on, it's still never enough.

my favourite route to date is the ecml, it's the route (and section) i always wanted in game. Is it 100% perfect? No. Are there issues with the route? Yes. Do i still really enjoy the route and can appreciate it for what it is, despite it's minor flaws, which is a very well made and thoroughly enjoyable route? Absolutely!

i think like almost anything in life, if you go into something expecting things to be 100% perfect, and anything else is not good enough and doesn't deserve your time, you're going to be very disappointed and miserable at almost everything you come across.

but as always, that's just my own opinion...

 

Unfortunately as far as I know, all the prototypes, 140001 and 141108 are all out of service, which means getting direct sounds is extremely hard. The only 141 in operation is 141113, which was a testbed for the Cummins + Voith, so that's also of no use.

 

Sounds really good to me. The original is the version I used to travel on (Chocolate and Cream Skippers) down in the south west. So I’m delighted that they‘ve even bothered with this version. So it’s the Cummins version that sounds different to me (Though I did travel on them later, just not as much, so no real memories).

I‘m really looking forward to the preview. Owning a lot of recent JT routes for TSC, I have high expectations but from what I’ve seen so far, the preview would have to be an absolute disaster for me not to buy.

 

I thought as much, I wonder is 140001 has even run in preservation.

 

Sounds are NOT reused Matt peddleston clearly pointed this out in roadmap stream last night

 

Matt Peddlesden*

 

I think about this for almost all the routes I play. Even some of the 'disliked' routes I still thoroughly enjoy.

Agreed, I think there has to be some level of give between what is expected and what is realistically achieveable.

I was jokingly thinking when this route was first teased, there'll be one, frankly minor, issue that will get blown totally out of perspective and try and bring the hype down...
...guess I wasn't wrong

 

The TL11 is several generations apart from the BUT Leyland or AEC engines fitted to first gen DMU's. The whole exhaust system reverberation and transmission sound would be different too. Well at this point I guess it is what it is, but certainly slightly perturbed by reports of the Porsche acceleration of the 142.

Whether it's the TL11 or Cummins version, the Pacers have a sound quite distinct from their predecessor heritage units or the Sprinter classes.

Like others have stated my main interest in this route is driving the classic traction, but going to Ormskirk it will be the 142.

I think this will now be shifting from Day One purchase to wait and see what the initial reviews have to say.

 

Are there any Leyland buses still with TL11 engines? Would these be a suitable source for sounds?

 

The problem again is probably not the engine sound per se but how it relates with the exhaust and bodywork of the vehicle.

Edit:
Found this link, might be worth a listen.

Leyland Tiger Ultimate Thrash - Leyland TL11 & Manual Gearbox - YouTube

 

Well since there are no 142s with TL11s still operating, there isn't really much they can do on that front. Any audio from the 80s is either going to be really hard to find, or not of sufficient quality for a game.

 

Oh I fully appreciate that but once again we come back to the familiar TSW story that seems to afflict every recent release regardless of developer - issues getting authentic audio in the game. It's not a total show stopper but once again the question must be posed when the projects are white boarded, selecting the rolling stock to include should include am assessment of sourcing the audio and that goes for both historic and contemporary trains where in case of the latter the operator may refuse access.

 

I mean sure, it should be evaluated, and weighed up. But considering it's impossible to record a Pacer with a TL11, I'm content with audio that sounds believable, even if not 100% accurate. This is definitely a situation where it is excusable. But when it's a modern train, still in service, not so much.

 

I demand to know why the devs didn't just build a time machine to go back and record perfect audio!

 

From the small amount of evidence we have, the acceleration of the 142 looks fine. The suggestion that it was too fast came from a miscommunication between two posters, which they’ve happily confirmed. It does go to show, though, how quickly these things grow legs!

Bad news travels fast. Good news takes the scenic route.

 

Appreciate the clarification. Was speed reading the thread while wife was nagging me about something and it doesn't pay to not listen to what she is saying.

In all likelihood it may still be a Day One purchase but it is just frustrating that we continue to have this issue of fudged audio in TSW which does not seem to affect TSC or other sims.

 

When I saw it in a siding at the Keith & Dufftown (?) a few years back I asked if it was running and was told "No, the lads ran it a few times until one of the engines blew and it's been sitting there ever since."

 

Our budget did not allow

 

Still day one for me. I can't honestly remember exactly what the early 142 sounded like. Probably got more memory of the middle variant as was about a lot for the period they ran and of course the later variant. I think over all the DLC will still beat most DTG releases hands down.

 

That's a shame. I remember seeing a photo of it at Coombe Junction when it was undergoing trials. It looked quite unusual with what I think was Moorswater viaduct in the background.

 

Call me a simple man who is easily pleased, but the fact that the TL11 sounds are remixed from 101 sounds really does not bother me in the least. In the case of both units it's a Leyland 6 cylinder diesel engine with a long exhaust and a manually shifting gearbox, the only difference is in the 142 said gearbox shifts itself without driver input. No TL11 Pacers still exist so it would be impossible to get correct recordings of one, I'd imagine while the AP sounds might sound 'better', they're probably not 100% accurate either. People need to let go of this obsession with 100% sounds, otherwise there are a hell of a lot of very iconic trains that we are never going to see in game. Not least of which I may remind you, that no examples remain of the original engine in the Inter-City 125 sets.

As has been pointed out further up in the thread, the units were re-engined not long into their service. Their years with the later Cummins engine vastly outnumbers their years with the TL11s. The Cummins engine by the way is also featured, we simply haven't heard it in demonstration yet because it wasn't there in 1986 so doesn't appear in regular traffic I would imagine, or at least only does rarely. It being featured is a bonus, but you can always use it in era appropriate liveries if you prefer those sounds. I am sure the Cummins engine will also be demonstrated in the preview stream.

If the best we get is what can be remixed and pieced together from similar sound sets? Still the best.

 

Having travelled on heritage DMU's with Leyland engines and Class 142's with TL11's even with the lapse in time I am quite certain the sound is not the same. It is far harsher and less melodious. As I noted above, these are engine types separated by 25 years of engineering development plus as I said the nuances from different exhaust and interior acoustics. Even the bus clip I linked earlier sounds nothing like a Pacer with these engines fitted.

 

That I do agree with from what little I know of the TL11s. I don't deny that the sound is off, my point is that when it comes to an extinct engine variant no sound we ever get in the game is going to be 100% accurate and it's unrealistic to expect that, and that if we do expect that then there are a lot of iconic trains with extinct variants such as my example of the 125 that we won't ever see. Unless someone one day just decides to take a TL11 and rebuild it into a Pacer as per the original blueprints, remixed sounds are the best we're going to get.

That being said, perhaps they could have been mixed a little better, given a bit more throaty roughness as the real ones did have. But as it stands right now, it could be worse.

 

Bingo!

No one expects perfection but there is a YT reference recording posted earlier in the thread and the JT sound guy should be mixing the sources he does have to match that as closely as possible. The same issue that has spoiled the Azuma, Class 700 and various other traction assets. No one is denying the challenges but in a payware product the developer needs to go that extra distance to get as close to the prototype as possible.

 

A video like that obviously can't be sampled for the addon itself but it can definitely be used as guidance. Anyone can tell that the engine sound of that video is way rougher than the redressed 101 sounds we seem to be getting. The current sounds can probably still be used, they just need to be roughened up a bit, actually sound as raw and unfiltered as the real TL11s did.

In the end, I can only imagine that the Cummins + Voith option will sound far better and will probably be the main one I drive anyway seeing as that was the variant I grew up riding, so by no means is any of this a game over for the route. It's still a day one purchase for me, and the Pacer will still be a brilliant thing to operate. Now all I need to do is slip onto my local heritage line when they next have their Pacer on driver for a fiver so I can truly compare the experience.

 

Sheffield to Cleethorpes on the last one of the night - 2 hours on a 142 through the darkness. I bet that felt like a long journey.

Mind you, I remember in the 90s BR used sometimes to link up its Barrow - Carlisle, Carlisle - Newcastle and Newcastle - Sunderland trains into through trains. A Barrow - Sunderland was close to 5 hours on a 142. Anyone who completed that deserved a medal (and a stiff drink) on arrival.

 

For anyone counting the days until release I can highly recommend the manual, a very interesting read full of tidbits of history for all the stations and other landmarks along the route.

https://dxhb0it26is40.cloudfront.ne...reston_Blackpool_and_Ormskirk_TSW4_Manual.pdf

 

As someone who knows nothing about these vehicles, I watched this nice documentary about the Pacer's departure and I have to say: I like these vehicles. They are exactly what I associate with “good old trains”. They are loud, make rustic noises, have windows that can be opened, jump like an attraction at the fair, in short they have character.



I'm looking forward to the DLC!

 

I do hope the Cummins engined variants don't turn up unless selected as that would be wrong for 1986.

 

Only the original variant turns up in the route in service mode so if you spawn on foot you'll only get the original but you can select any to drive yourself.

 

Looks tremendous. I hope your stream goes well tonight, you make a load of money this year, and you have more projects on the way for TSW.