Just Trains Making Wcml Over Shap And Br Class 87

I play on Xbox Series S. I would love to see the community mods become available for Console users even if it releases alongside TSW7

 

Another ‘popular’ suggestion is the APT-P which would have been operating for it’s last year in 1986

 

Wow, had to look that one up. Was it really only in full scale service from 1980-1986?
Yeah that'd be pretty "niche" to do up a whole train.
Although.....this site seems to say that testing was done on the WCML between Carlisle and Carnforth... so much like the TGV was tested on the SESH (and added as a layer there in TSW), a Class 390 could easily be added to the route as a "test run" and since it was directly based on the APT experience and technology, it would be a fine tribute.
http://www.traintesting.com/Class_390.htm

Now it wouldn't be in the 1986 timetable.... but like the TGV on the SESH, it'd be a one-off add-on scenario for fun.

 

Abso-bloody-lutely not! Luckily I know JT wouldn't do such a thing.

Spat half my mug of tea out when I read that comment!

 

Ah okay, thanks

 

110% agree.

APT at the outside but frankly of limited use and just like the real thing, a novelty item.

No for me it's either got to be an 86, an 81 to 85, a Class 25 or a Class 108 DMU.

 

They never really entered any form of "full scale service", I don't think there was ever any more than one unit in service at any one time but someone who worked on the WCML at the time should be able to correct me.

They were a brilliant concept but the development team encountered many challenges, BR rushed and botched the launch. It was pulled from service for further modifications, only to fail time and again. Eventually BR lost patience and cancelled the APT in favour of the more conventional Intercity 225 on the ECML and Class 90/DVTs for WCML.

Strangely, after the project was cancelled Crewe Depot tinkered a bit more with the remaining operative carriages and put together one unit as a spare and it ran fine whenever pressed into action. It would frequently surprise passengers expecting a more convention train. But its days were numbered and it was quietly withdrawn from service.

In retrospect, having two different developments teams working on two totally different high speed trains at the same time was a bit bonkers. There's an excellent book on the subject called "APT The Untold Story".

 

And I'll add. Having seen it fly past me when trainspotting with my uncle near Stafford back in 1984, it was a thing of utter beauty. I was so sad that Santa never brought me the Hornby version.

 

One afternoon in 1982 (83?) I turned up at Carlisle and was chuffed to find one parked at The Wall. Sat there all afternoon, ticking quietly away to itself, never moved. It was one of those days where there were ECML diversions too, so at one point I had a shot of it next to an HST … sadly lost the photo, but it’s clear as day in my head still

 

I just did some research on APT and though it was failure, it does look interesting to operate. I even found it was published on TSC in 2017 by DTG and has really good reviews (something for the next sale to consider). I think my vote would go for the APT. Sounds like great fun thrashing it up the WCML.

 

Imo, I doubt they'll be adding class 25s as by 1986 there were only 12 left at King moor and the rest were at Crewe by the start of the year but near the end most were gone from what I know, as only stranglers were left. So, it would be weird starting a service at the end of the year (1986) with barely any 25s in service. Unless they were ETHELs but I don't think any operated near Carlisle or Preston.

 

I think for most more casual people, an 86 may be a hard sell ("it's just a slower 87 with 3 windows"). Plus, what other opportunity will there be to put an APT in TSW? It's somewhat iconic, being our first tilting train, it's infamous in railway circles, many of the public of a certain age will have at least seen it and know roughly what it is (I understand it was all over the newspapers whenever anything went even slightly wrong)

 

Granted, but it wouldn’t it be nice if JT did a 25 as a DLC for NTP, with an occasional sub into BPO and their new route.

 

That's pretty much what I (as a non-Brit) have been thinking to be honest, but I'm sure there is enough of an audience who does care. I think the bigger problem is that it's going to be hard to make compelling gameplay for a loco that's so similar to one that's already included with the route. You can always make scenarios, of course, but it's not like there are gaps in the timetable that only an 86 (but not an 87) can fill.

 

The APT might have looked nice on the outside but they were spartan as hell on the inside. I was fortunate enough to get a chance to travel on one of the staff familiarisation trips that were arranged in 1980, prior to anticipated start of service. Standard or rather Second class then had seats which were a variation on the rather hard design introduced with the Mark 2 F and Mark 3 coaches. Interior panelling was a stark white plastic which combined with bright fluorescent lighting felt like travelling in a hospital waiting room. First class was a bit better but by no means that comfortable. Highlight of the trip was a rather nice three course meal in the restaurant car, with a Class 86 cab ride from Crewe to Rugby on the way home courtesy of the Area Ops Manager at Willesden who was also on the trip.

Oh and the tilt was disabled on my trip so never got a chance to experience that.

 

The main difference in terms of gameplay is the 86 was mixed traffic, whereas the 87 was almost exclusively passenger (I say almost as there no doubt was one appeared on a freight run at some point). Other than that, not much difference if anything.

 

Having WCML in 1986 without a class 86 would be like GWE without a class 166; BML without a 387; Boston Sprinter without an Acela etc. It just wouldn't happen.

I can see how it looks very similar to the class 87 and probably won't feel much different to drive and therefore might not be an exciting DLC. However you wouldn't just see a parade of class 87's on the WCML in 1986, not only 86's but class 81's and 85's would have been prominent too.

It would be like never making another first generation DMU out because we have the class 101 and they all look the same. Or even having just one Electrostar model and not modelling the others as they all look the same.

Personally I would love a class 25 as they are my favourite diesel loco after the class 47 but for realism for me, a class 86 (or an 81 or 85) is must. If it was the APT I would be disappointed, certainly if it was the first DLC for the route.

 

The 86 was slightly less powerful than the 87’s so there will be a slight performance difference. Sound wise near enough identical, compared to if they did a Roarer of course.

 

Fair, but so far I got the impression that Just Trains seems to be using the 87 for freight as well.

...or like Linke Rheinstrecke without a 140...?

That's absolutely not what I'm saying: to stay with the class 101 example, I'm not saying it never makes sense to do another first gen DMU for TSW because we have the 101; I'm saying that it's probably not a very attractive option to make another first gen DMU as a loco DLC for a route that already has the 101 included out of the box, and a complete timetable in which the 101 already does all the services that a first gen DMU could reasonably handle on it.

In my opinion, a loco DLC should, at a minimum, provide one of these two things: new timetable services, or a driving experience that's different to the trains already on its home route. If a piece of rolling stock doesn't accomplish either of those things, I'd prefer to see it included with a route instead of as a standalone DLC.

 

More importantly, the Class 86 would bring us an electric Freight loco. Though I suspect it would have to be a reskin, I can't imagine a mid-80s cab looked anything like when they operated for Freightliners.

 

I think Linke-Rheinstrecke should absolutely have a class 140, sadly it seems to be another route abandoned by DTG, maybe because it is set back in time and they have ticked that particular box.

I understand what you are saying about gameplay but I think for enthusiasts of a particular era or area, operations portrayed as realistically as possible, would be more important, it certainly would be for me. Sure the APT would look very different, drive very different and sound very different but it adds little in terms or realism or usefulness.

There were around 30 different classes of first generation DMU yet we at most will likely have two of them when the class 104 releases. I could name at least six classes which would have been seen on NTP in the period it is set. I don't think a class 101 would have been running the Lancaster to Morecombe shuttle in 1986 as there were very few if any full sets in the Manchester depots at this time. But I wouldn't expect a new unit to be modelled just for that.

 

I don't disagree - I feel the same about the routes and eras that I have a personal connection and interest in - but most TSW products will need to appeal to more people than just those "hardcore" enthusiasts.

 

Just to clarify, if it’s a Class 86, that would be a Day One purchase for me regardless of the similarities to the 87.
As would a Roarer or Class 25. APT unlikely to be and probably kept for a sale.

 

What DMU's operated on this section in the 1980's apart from 101's and 104's?

 

Out of interest are there any working preserved 81-85's? Just wondering about how sound would be sourced for these if they were ever to be modelled, didn't each 81-87 classes sound a tad slightly different or is my memory playing tricks!?!

 

When is this likely to be released does anyone know?

 

I don’t think so. Would have to be synthesised based on reference recordings. The Roarers were quite distinct especially the fan sound. The EU07 in SimRail is quite close but they are still a bit different.

 

The AC loco group has an 85 on display but it isn't a runner. The Locomotives - The AC Locomotive Group (aclocogroup.co.uk)

 

Class 108's were the most dominant DMU's in the Manchester/Liverpool area, probably with the class 104's second. Class 101's were prominent at Chester depot and Neville Hill in Leeds but weren't commonly allocated to the Manchester depots until the end of the 80's, so mostly likely they would have operated into the Manchester area but not from it.

Class 120's were fairly common around Manchester in the mid 80's some with class 101 centre cars. Class 100,103 and 105's also but they had gone by 1986 apart from some class 105's in parcels use and the "celebrity" class 100/105 set which bafflingly never got preserved.

 

Class 87s were commonplace on freight trains on the Northern WCML in the mid-late 1980s. Particularly on freightliner and steel coil workings, usually double headed.

 

I reckon an 85 would be a better shout - there were the 85/1 freight conversions (not sure when though), and the original unconverted batch regularly did both passenger and freight. Bit of a nod to the older pilot classes too.

Still hanging in for the 25 though

 

Ahh, I always saw them as a passenger loco. Learn something new every day.

Explains the freightliner formations in the TSC version.

 

Not sure if it's been suggested but Class 81's were a staple on this section on Hardendale to Ravenscraig limestone trains in 1986. Might be an outside shout for the new loco?

 

The TSC version is a lot of fun to drive, if you already have WCMLS I highly recommend getting it (on sale) and thrash it around.

 

84001 is also preserved but static.

 

There’s at least one of each of the AC classes preserved. The only one that didn’t make it was the experimental Class 80 conversion. I think you could see them all under the same roof at Barrow Hill up until recently, before 84 001 went back to the NRM.

EDIT: oh yeah that AC Loco Group site lists them all

 

I bet that HST would have been a Deltic if they hadn't been withdrawn by Jan 1982

 

Blackpool Branches was announced in August 2023 and was released that November. For this route, I should hope it'll be out by Christmas as (looking from the screenshots & the timelapse video) the route looks nearly finished.

 

For sure … I remember several weekends where ECML diversions sent both Deltics and HSTs our way!

Strangest Deltic sighting at Carlisle for me though had to be when Gateshead started using them for local runs and 55 019 with 3 Mk 1s stood in for a failed DMU on the Newcastle-Carlisle. The driver was obviously enjoying himself, let us in the cab and gave us a roar and a toot on the way out

 

Very much looking forward to the route.

I'd also put my +1 in for the new loco DLC to please not be an APT. While I appreciate the APT's "contribution" to the railways, it's still quite niche for this route. As most have said, getting a Class 86 and getting electric-hauled freight will be fantastic, especially over Shap.

 

God I hope so. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

 

I remember my Uncle showing me a photo of a Deltic at Leicester, think it was about 1977. A Peterborough-Leicester local DMU service had failed so a Deltic was put on a scratch rake of carriages and sent to Leicester in service. At Leicester it ran back round and took the return service back. Incredible times.

 

Whoa, now THAT would have been something to see! Talk about way off the beaten path!

My “home” station was Workington - one afternoon I stopped by as usual and got talking to Brian the shunter - great bloke - always had some interesting news or bit of gen about a namer lurking in the area - he couldn’t wait to tell me that the same Deltic I’d seen on the Newcastle run had just been through towing a failed 108. Never saw it myself, but some of the usual crew at Carlisle the next time I went up there were were talking about it. Couldn’t get away from 019 for a while

Ironically I’ve yet to see it in preservation…

 

I have travelled between Carlisle and Preston and love the scenery around that area. The hills are beautiful and so excited to see it recreated in tsw!

 

Useful for static observations and photographs though, for understandable reasons, I don't think any UK Heritage Railway or museum wants the responsibility that would come with stringing up 25kv OLE!

 

It is a pity that some kind of electric heritage centre never emerged, an 25KV version of Didcot or Quainton road. When you look at how well represented DMU's are in the preservation scene, after they were initially ignored, compared to practically no AC EMU's being preserved, it is very sad. I would love the opportunity to ride a 304 again.

 

Just such a huge safety headache with those high voltage wires overhead, I guess the heritage tramways such as Seaton or Crich manage because the voltage is relatively low DC as is the distance it can jump (though still potentially lethal), but no one comes back from riding 25kv unfortunately.

 

Yes that's fair enough.

 

Don't think anyone can.. Even though they currently have 1 released TSW DLC to their name, Just Trains instantly become one of the better TSW 3rd Party devs when Blackpool Branches released

 

They have always gone above and beyond for ts.