Less Console Game, More Simulator Please!

Can you elaborate on what exactly he said, please?

 

To address the point the OP made about collectables and "console kiddies", according to google, collectables first appeared in TSW in 2017, a full year before the first console release.

 

I wanted to be a train driver when I was a child and I still love the railways due to a strong familial connection. That connection died a couple of years ago and that's how I found my way into TSW. I really like the driving. I use safety systems, obey the speed limits, try to do things as realistically as I know how, etc. I've never understood the walking around (even along the Dawlish seawall!), collecting stuff and all the other non-driving paraphernalia but I accept that it's the game we've got. I play on console because I don't want a PC. I've written/managed software professionally, including intensive 3D graphics, for decades, so I always enjoy reading all of the 'expert' opinions on this forum, and a PC is the last thing I want in my house because they are just awful things to own (IMHO). It's fair enough to want more of a sim, and I'm kind of with you on that, but you won't get it here, so you're howling at the moon really. I think the reason why people have got most upset though is because you've wrongly attributed the reasons for it being 'not sim-y enough' to its availability on console, and then you've gone on to suggest that people who play on consoles are somehow less serious than people like you.

 

I stopped reading after "outstanding visuals"

 

Dad Rail is a train driver and he seems to enjoy it, despite its faults...

The fact is you want something this product wasn't designed to achieve. The people who enjoy it clearly aren't wasting their money.

Hopefully someone else will develop a simulator that is more complex and realistic in every aspect, then that will be the product for you.

And it certainly is possible on a console, as the hardware inside is effectively a PC, but usually optimised with faster BUS routes, etc. There is certainly no technical reason why console hardware would hold back the simulation aspect. The only limitation on most consoles is RAM, although its shared and integrated nature means it usually behaves faster than PC RAM. The biggest hurdle has been the Xbox as it has less than PS5. But really that's only an issue with read-writing high definition assets for the environment. If someone develops a simulator on console with stripped back graphics, it's definitely feasible.

Microsoft Flight Simulator is on console, now coming to PS5 too, and that is an incredibly in-depth simulator experience.

 

Console thing is a red herring for reasons others have explained.

I do agree with the OP that I would love the sim to be more realistic and the collectables stuff/scoring/etc is a complete waste of time. But the correct solution to the latter is to ignore it rather than demanding it's removed. The former though? I think DTG are perfectly capable but not focussing their time as sadly most are not too bothered. So for those of us who do want it, I guess it does need us to actually speak up, so well done to OP for doing so although you get more flies with honey than vinegar, this thread is probably not gonna acheive a great deal other than putting people's backs up

 

TSW is as much a "Sim" as Gran Turismo was the "real driving simulator". It is a game. An enjoyable game.

 

What I don't get is how removing the game from the console market would suddenly turn it into this ultra-immersive, super-detailed simulator. That's down to DTG. Train sim classic is PC only for example, and some of the trains that DTG made for that are awful, much worse than their TSW stuff.

 

With fewer platforms to cater to and dropping console's constraints and gamer's interests allows DTG's limited resources to be used to improve the 'experience' towards a more 'simulated railway transportation' kind of game.

For instance a simple business model instead of collectables and scoring? Apart from XP points, is there any reward like a new platform to serve? Or being allowed to drive rush hour extras in an already almost full timetable to prove your skills?

 

Shortly summarized: The question was asked, why Gen 8 consoles are still supported by DTG. Lukas elaborated that still a large player basis uses Gen 8. They are trying to make it possible, but they are aware that the old consoles reach their limits. While until now, it was not a problem to seperate between different consoles, they realised that a point is reached where areas of the game are worse [potentially only on Gen 9 not PC] due to watching out for Gen 8 consoles. This is also discussed now internally at DTG.

Obviously, it is more complex than just "consoles are holding the game back", but the viewpoint that "consoles (particularly Gen 8) are not holding back the game" might be changing slightly as well.

 

But a simple business model is already completely possible on console- tycoon games already exist on them! ATS/ETS2 are launching on consoles soon as well. DTG just haven't chosen to implement such a thing into TSW.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to see a waybill/industry system for freight, but that's in no way a console limitation.

As another poster above mentioned, collectibles predate the console release, so, again, that's a DTG design choice, not a console limitation.

Your opinions are valid, but you seem to be blaming the wrong parties here.

What TSW does provide is a fully simulated 24hour timetable, which i'm pretty certain doesn't exist in TSC, that supposedly hardest core of the simulators, that can only be run by the elitest PCs lol

That's ultimately what keeps me playing this way more than any other train sims.

 

Is the driving experience particularly unreaslitic? Dadrail seems to be generally happy with the experience.

I am just an armchair enthusiast so maybe there is a lot I wouldn't notice but generally the trains sound realistic, they seem to perform as I would expect, the signalling and safety systems largely work as I would expect. What exactly is unrealitic?

There are annoyances, I still don't understand why the train despatching/door closing "feature" is like it is, that I do think is unrealistic and quite immersion breaking, that would have been a priority to upgrade as far as I am concerned. The passenger behaviour is still not great, that I would agree with.

 

I have no problem with anyone sharing their opinion. He’s also blaming console users for why the game isn’t sim enough for him, so console users are going to have their say. Especially when he assumes that all console users only play for fun and to pick up trophies and posters when that’s just not true. Lots of console users (myself included) also don’t care about that stuff and just want to engineer the trains.

His actual criticisms are correct and I think many would agree, but don’t put that on console users.

 

Remember simulation is just pixels on a screen.
What is real? Can you be sure that we’re not in some digital world controlled and manipulated by extraterrestrials?

 

Well, some scientists believe we're in a simulation. Wouldn't it be funny if we are software loaded on another being's game console.

 

Gen 8 has restricted features already because they can’t run on the platform. Those features/timetables still exist on Gen 9 and PC though. At the end of the day it’s just optimizing to work with the console. There are people who have lower end PCs that aren’t as powerful as Gen 9 consoles that play the game, so if the above was true, they would be holding it back as well.

 

As I said in this thread already, absolutely nothing wrong with most of your criticisms. The issue is you are blaming in on console users when that has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

I’m mainly a console user that actually agrees with you in regards to seeing more simulation features in TSW, but you assume that I’m a kid (I’m not) and that I only play for the collectibles and trophies (I do not). Plenty of room for all of us to play and get more sim features in TSW, even if they lean more towards working on PC due to any potential limitations of console (which as I said can get worked out like they already had in the flight simulation world with MSFS).

 

I'm also someone who doesn't give a monkey's about achievements, mastery and collectibles.

But that really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I play on PC. I would feel the same if I played on console.

What mystifies me though is why MS and Sony didn't equip their machines with more and expandable memory. Even when the gen 9 consoles were released 16 GB was considered an absolute minimum for gaming. So now they're emasculated and future dlc will sorely test them.

Will 10th gen be given more memory?

 

Sounds like this game isn't for you. Best bet is to uninstall the game and start saving for a commercial/industrial grade simulator. Might be a few years.

 

Now, in terms of where we are at here, it's now number 6. We still lack HD textures in the cabs. the lighting is just horrendous at certain times washing everything out. The sound, remember now you cannot feel this, should be one of the main immersion factors. Does it really give you that audio experience?

The console, has yes, added features to make this a game and not a simulator, this due to the market research claiming it was boring.

It has limited your routes lengh and graphics quality due to RAM, timetables, interaction with the train due to controller compatibility, and created a division where DTG see more potential in developing quickly for a targeted audience. It also keeps mods away from enhancing the simulation, and makes you have to buy addons through a marketplace.

Now take MSFS, ASOBO decided recently to solve performance issues on XBOX by limiting the resolution of streamed maps. XBOX now happy, however those on PC now have blury textures. Do they care, no! Sim update 4 is being dragged along, while they focus on now targetting the playstation market. It's all about making a profit and the end user experience is suffering.

 

The blurry texture issues have more to do with MS full move to cloud streaming and not allowing us to download to our HD until SU3, which still isn’t working 100% correct. There were no issues with it on PC in 2020 even after they cut back the XBox performance slightly right around SU15.

And in terms of control, why don’t DTG follow what Asobo/MS did and have a condensed setting for controller players and allow for full keybindings for those who use Joystick + Keyboard/Mouse (which can be done on console btw).

Completely agree that they make decisions based on sales, but how else do they stay in business if they aren’t selling to a wider audience? If your point is that they are putting it out on console to get those additional sales and maybe not focusing on the immersion/realism because it’s about pumping out new content, then I’m in agreement. But any sort of “limitations” due to having it on multiple platforms is nothing more than optimization issues that can be resolved without impacting the PC version, because these would also limit those with PC specs on the lower ends, not just consoles.

EDIT: For clarity, I’m talking about Gen 9 consoles. Gen 8 consoles have to be treated a bit differently, although I understand why it’s still made available for these. A lot of companies still are producing Gen 8 content, but it’s been 5 years so I’m curious when they are going to all move off of it.

 

And we can start excusing our behaviour with "It's just the way I'm programmed".

 

I see the bashing consoles treads are picking up speed

 

Hi,... with TSW6... I felt it is the less interesting one, since TS2020 i first purchased!

Let me explain:
It is related of what Dovetail games offered to us:

As on every new version TSW "generation", we usually have 3 new routes, and new locomotives or trains.
Which usually was nice.

But this time, does not happened to me!
I am mostly disappointed, about what DTG offered!

Let me explain:

3 "new" routes: ??

> One is an extension of a route: yes Dresden to Leipzig.
That extension from Riesa to Leipzip only offers just most km / miles.
The scenery is almost the same.
With the same trains we have from years ago!
The Dostos are everywhere!
Yesteraday I drove one on the full route, and the destination name never appeared!
Only the AI trains have it!

We do not have new passenger - double decker EMUs for example trains or even some new freight cars.
Tank cars are ones of the most variety on real world, but we only have one! Considering the 6 generation of the simulator!

On the original Dresden Riesa route, when you arrive there you have a yard with trains.
Now on the extension, that yard, is completely empty! Ridiculous!

The new locomotive for this route is a shunter one!
It was mentioned it was requested on the forums.
Ok, but them launched it as single addon.
On a new sim, we need mainline locomotives!
Mostly of the videos in You tube channels showed the other routes instead.
Not forget about the "great modification" that the ICE-T now have a green stripe. It s a joke!

> The US route around or near NYC, is mostly the same we had on TS2020 - I believe ending at Penn Station too!
Talking about it, when you leave the tunnel on it you pass though a train washer.
Then the train and for some miles, the train only can go up to 8 mph!
You lost precious time on it!

The locomotives are US models of the European Alstom 185.

> Finally the new UK route:
This is the one that it really worth it!!
Despite again...not completely new train - being similar to the LNER on the East Coast Mainline, but now Diesel.
Anyway I liked it.
Furthermore if you can have the Cross Country diesel train too!
The scenery is really great too!

But in this case I accepted it. As sounds great and different.

Hopes in the near future we can have new routes and trains for this 6 "generation" adding new trains.
I mean despite of the other once announced of other countries!

Regards

That it is just my opinion, and of course you can disagree.

 

I take pride in the fact that I'm able to use my "thumbstick warrior" skills to drive trains in TSW on a console.

 

Okay, then. Let’s change the subject to first person shooter. Back in the day console was literally all call of duty, now it’s the other way around.

You can’t tell me you can have the same experience on a toaster compared to a high end gaming PC, this combined with high refresh rate monitors with a good mouse etc.

Now, you want nice scenes, packed timetables, immersion in HD graphics, and realism where the train can run smoothly. Ability to be modified by third party to allow for more enhancement. It’s time to move away from the toasters and get the simulation it deserves.

 

West coast mainline 1980s says otherwise to the whole limiting route size, the smaller routes are more cause by DTG sometimes being lazy

 

Don't worry at some point consoles will become more powerful than a PC

 

I don’t think DTG are being lazy, it’s to with the hardware limitations on the consoles, combined with a cash budget and project deadlines.

What you probably didn’t know, the WCML had to have its timetable cut as a trade off. Where are the HST layers? Yes, you guessed it, console was smoked out again.

 

I’d even go as far as suggesting console have a separate forum, and platform to us PC users, now that will really upset you all.

 

Nobody is saying you can have the same experience with a high end PC vs a console. Having a high end PC is clearly the better experience and there is no denying that. And I think most console users understand there is a trade off to not having the full experience of a high end PC (and if they do, they are delusional).

However using the FPS example, there is still a large player base on console and they added new features and physics in BO6 for both (and have crossplay between, amongst massive amounts of cheating but that’s a different conversation ). So should COD just stop selling on console because it’s a better experience on PC and lockout the people who can’t afford one and miss out on all of those extra sales?

Also third party add-ons can be supported, it’s been done by other games. It’s just much easier on PC since a framework for allowing those mods doesn’t need to be built like it does on console.

 

Nah I actually agree on this. Other forums have it already and it helps focus questions and troubleshooting that are tailored towards the specific user base.

 

Lol, not a chance unless you are using an ancient PC! Seriously hope you are joking.

 

I've Heard rumours that gen 10 could beat pc

 

But it doesn’t literally playing the full timetable right now on the series x and also the 3 original routes which were when this game was pc only was also small,

also you may have misunderstood me when I said west coast mainline because the one I’m talking about is Preston to Carlisle

 

TSW can already have mods on pc, so if it is somehow not meeting your demands for what a game should be create some mods to make it do whatever you're asking of it?

Edit: here's a link if you want to do something more advanced on pc: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/forums/pc-editor-discussion/

 

Well, Call of Duty on PlayStation 5 supports high refresh rate monitors and mouse/keyboard control, so I'm not sure what your point is there.

When PS5 released, it was the equivalent specs as the latest RTX GPU and 8-core processor PC, with certain hardware benefits over equivalent PCs.

Of course PC hardware moves faster than console hardware so a slightly superior GPU quickly came to market on PC, but it was actually the PlayStation dawn of console hardware that spurred on the acceleration of PC hardware development to the rate it is now.

I use both PC and console. When I got my PS5 it was more powerful than my PC, yet my PC was already running Microsoft Flight Simulator on full ultra settings, albeit at 1080p resolution and a locked 30 FPS – because PC settings are scalable to the user's hardware. Which should be proof itself why developers don't throttle PC versions to favour console versions. In all my brother's decades of being a developer, across pretty much every platform, including porting from PC to console or vice versa, I think he'd attest to the fact he has never once had to touch a PC version of a game to develop the console version (in fact more often than not ports of games are handled by separate teams, and even more often by completely different development studios).

The main point is, hardware is hardware, programming is programming, and the way systems are simulated, be it weather systems, aircraft or train systems, is identical on both consoles and PCs. It's all just floating point calculations. The only conceivable limitation on a console is usually RAM, but a developer would normally reduce something on the console version only, not PC, which is evident on gen 8 console versions of TSW versus gen 9 and PC. By your logic, the PC version would currently face the same limitations as the gen 8 consoles – which it evidently doesn't.

The only things really holding back the PC version are what they believe the market wants, i.e. the majority versus the minority of players, the publisher's personal development plan, and potentially the developers' skillset.

 

I'm not sure if you're just trolling or what but that genuinely makes zero sense. Such a thing wouldn't even be possible.

 

The HST didn't run on WCML during 1986. Nothing to do with consoles.

Also, console users suffered a reduced timetable on the Frankfurt S-bahn, whereas PC users could utilize a much expanded timetable with lots of layers (although that's more the game's poor optimisation on console which is a separate issue entirely). If your point was true, then PC users would've been shafted with the reduced timetable.

 

You don't have to leave your seat in timetable mode... collectibles are optional

 

This is not true lol. I’m a console guy but PC will always be better because once the console comes out, it’s already obsolete within a short time period when compared to a PC.

I just hope XBox (and PS) don’t lock themselves into another shared memory console because that limits what can be done on it from a performance perspective. But PC will always be ahead because new tech comes out on at least yearly basis.

 

Wait, are you trying to say consoles can't play first person shooters?

Lmao!!

Gen 9 consoles support m&kb, and high/variable refresh rates., and 4k textures. Your arguments literally don't make sense.

I just don't get why you're so mad about the fact that consoles are, in fact, mini PCs these days. Are they as powerful as the most powerful PC? No, but nether are large portions of the PC market- DTG has to optimize the game for those players as well.

Why are you so determined that it's consoles holding back your hypothetical SuperTrainSim, rather than the obvious reason that it wouldn't be an economically viable product?

 

I’ve been playing since the first TSW and I have noticed that the focus on accurate train simulation has reduced in my opinion. For example in the beginning a lot of trains had realistic procedures starting from cold and dark cabs , and I think tmore effort was put into accurate train physics . There were also manuals with the earlier versions which gave more details on operating the trains, but now this is less common. The class 350 as an example of poor simulation on WCMLS (the braking seems too good to be true) . The new talent 2 on the new leipzig route has many features not working now compared to the old one . I feel there is not as much attention to detail as there used to be with the trains. DLCs are released in seemingly unfinished states at times .

 

I can't tell at this point if you are trolling or are just a monumental...

 

EXACTLY.

There is barely any fundamental difference between a console and PC these days. Its not 1988.

Sure there are some PCs out there that will outperform a PS5/Xbox X, but there are also plenty of PCs that have less horsepower than a gen 9 console.

Even if DTG made this game PC only they wouldn't be releasing it only for high end gaming PCs and super computers. There isn't a big enough market for train nerds with $3000 PCs. They'd still be making a game that could scale to lower end PC hardware, so the entire premise of "consoles are holding back the game" is pure hogwash.

Look at the minimum PC specs currently. They are making the game to run on PCs with 8gb of RAM.

 

yes, and this is due to the (sad) fact that tsw has become a silly, casual, arcade game (the fact that thomas dlcs exist in tsw doesn't make me look exaggerated by saying this) and has completely strayed from its initial proposal, which was to be a simulator

 

There’s no troll here, just someone who has good situation awareness, and has voiced an opinion on how they feel about the true state of or lack of simulation, in a so called simulated environment.

Hopefully there will be a rival platform for a more detailed experience in the future, away from the arcade box.

The childish nature of this platform, combined with the toxicity of the community who won’t even acknowledge a single criticism.

Keep funding them, and good luck with number 7 guys. But spoiler alert, it’s the same as 6, but just an updated UI.

 

As I’ve already kindly pointed out already, sadly DTG are not interested in simulation. And I’m afraid to tell you train operators aren’t interested in providing anything to support this market either.

It’s only because of people like myself who are whining to provide some information you have what you got, for the moment anyway before it goes bust.

 

If train operators had no interest then they wouldn't grant licenses for their brands to be used.