Route Linke Rheinstrecke - Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'Player Feedback' started by TrainGeek08, Mar 9, 2023.

  1. TrainGeek08

    TrainGeek08 Well-Known Member

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    Evening all, TrainGeek08 here and tonight I am sharing my thoughts and hopefully your thoughts as well on the Linke Rheinstrecke route by DTG, coming out next Thursday

    My thoughts:

    • The route is of good length and quality
    • The route has appropriate layers for the era
    • Mainz station is looking great
    • Not happy about the render distance excuse to not include AI Traffic on the Right Rhine route
    • Let's hope this route does well!!!

    Below is your opportunity to share your thoughts about the route and I'll tag DTG Matt so he can pass the feedback back to the team, thanks all for your contributions in advance, from me, TG08, I'll see you around, goodbye ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
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  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No. Using the 110 as a freight locomotive is just... wrong.
     
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  3. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts:

    - Hilariously stutters and micro pauses frequently like any other TSW3 route

    - The trains look nice in screenshot mode
     
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  4. TrainGeek08

    TrainGeek08 Well-Known Member

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    Except from that... :o
     
  5. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Before anyone comments on the weird tunnel eye adaptation effect, that has been fixed on the release build. Also mentioned in stream.
     
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  6. juliplus#6089

    juliplus#6089 Active Member

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    The scenery looks really good
     
  7. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    About the BR 110:
    Wechselblinken not working if under 500Hz. Bug already present on BRO. Can you please check that for a patch?
     
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  8. dosto762

    dosto762 Well-Known Member

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    110 on freight and no 363/365 layer is dissapointing and noticed a lot of stuttering throughout the stream. But the detail on the 103 and scenery is nice.
     
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  9. graham.haddon

    graham.haddon Well-Known Member

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    There is a 365 layer? I'm not sure what you mean.
     
  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I spotted the donkey!
     
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  11. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    The scenery looks really nice....quite different to all previous German routes. The idyllic nature of a track winding its way along a river bank with castles and vineyards looks quite relaxing
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, the trees on the hillsides are rather sparse- not as bad as MSB (still yet Arosa!), but still, IRL those hills are heavily forested, except where cleared for agriculture.
     
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  13. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Too many compromises in my opinion. It really looks good but I'm just not sold on it, it really needed a freight loco and Im still not understanding the logic that the 155 couldn't be included because it's the wrong era, but the wrong era ICE1 is fine.
     
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  14. Scott295

    Scott295 Well-Known Member

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    Scenery and locos look great. I just pre-ordered it on Steam with the 10% discount. :cool:
     
  15. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    BR 103 is doing the IR too, so an IR-loco-DLC with 120 is very unlikely :(
    And of course wrong coaches for IR.
     
  16. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    155 would have required a new build. The ice1 although wrong didn't need to be rebuilt. That's the difference. It's a whole new locomotive vs a layer from another route. And it's only 2 services so not a big deal
     
  17. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    Rolling stock, stations and scenery all look incredible. Timetable seems genuinely busy, and good amounts of static stock in the sidings as well. Lighting bugs have apparently already been fixed in the newer development builds. Just a shame about the missing PIS.
    But all in all, positively surprised!!

    One question, though: Are all layers on old gen consoles?
     
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  18. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I have to say. the route scenery looks great. probably the best looking route in the game
     
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  19. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    I really like this route, it looks awesome.
    The only thing that bothers me is the missing Br101 substitution. It was used at that time and the only difference was a slightly different red tone :/
    I really do hope that this decision could be taken into consideration again!!
    Apart from that: really looking forward to next Thursday!
     
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  20. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    The article didn't specify whether it was next gen only or not so it's probably layers on all platforms
     
  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Because an all-traffic red loco (with a completely different cab layout) is obviously blatantly wrong, while a white train with a narrow stripe in a slightly different shade of red is not so obvious?
     
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  22. Ghostface1701

    Ghostface1701 Well-Known Member

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    Route looks good. If I had to have one nitpick, it's not what slight variations of locos did or didn't make it into the route, it's a graphical one. I noticed buildings had a low LOD until the train was almost right next to them. This makes things like window frames look crooked, and at one point it was possible to see right through large gaps in textures.

    I assume the LOD was set low due to performance reasons on the route, but I hope it can be improved before for the release build.
     
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If DTG do another 90s route they're going to have to take on the IRs; the era isn't complete without them
     
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  24. redtrainz

    redtrainz Active Member

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    People, we have the 103, on the Rhine.

    Yes, there are stutters and I'm a bit miffed about the missing PIS (but I understand DTG's stated logic there, though I hope they figure out how to implement the era PIS), but we have the 103! Probably the most iconic German locomotive!

    Yes, the render distance issue with the other river bank is a pity and I would love to see the traffic on Rechte Rheinstrecke, but to enable that, they'd have to change the default render distance for the whole game (I think?) at a massive performance cost, with much more frequent stutters. So I think we shouldn't give DTG a hard time on this one - having trains popping in and out of existence, as Lucas said, would be jarring and much more immersion-breaking, IMO, than not seeing any traffic there at all.

    I think DTG did a great job here, from what I can see - more detailed review pending; the scenery is great, we can finally drive the 103, it's properly long and not a dull accelerate-drive-brake-arrive.

    Also, shoutout to DTG Alex for the excellent moderation. At every pause, he moved the conversation along with apposite prompts.
     
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  25. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Thank you DTG Lukas for showcasing this route tonight! I am very happy with what I have seen. Scenery and included stock are all above expectations, for me at least.

    BUT: Please, please, please, do reconsider the decision not to substitute the 101! Because it would be realistic and would cover one big drawback of the route as shown: variety on the rails! This is what the 90s were, a huge mix of everything. The argument that it wouldn’t fit from the colours is simply a bad one (sorry…), as it is not true, especially, as it was running already with the Waggons you have on this route and in this year. Does not need to be a high substitution rate, but it must be there. I hope more people will echo this! It’s a low hanging fruit for DTG! And including the best loco in TSW will be rather a selling point:D
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The 101s came from the factory in traffic red; they've never been any other color.
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I am mildly disappointed, but not surprised, that there isn't a realistic diversity in the built landscape, which is a great part of this route's charm IRL. The houses are a relatively small selection of recycled assets, and I am especially disappointed that the real route's glorious collection of old churches has been replaced by the same Generic German Church 1 and Generic German Church 2 we've had ever since RT.
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or TSW2 route
     
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  29. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting one. Looked great (even in the horrible bright sunny weather), lots of nice details, and there is something to driving alongside a road and a river, racing cars and boats. Seems all that lovely scenery on the other side of the river potentially comes at a performance cost though.

    The 103 didn't blow me away, maybe if it can be taken up to speed on KWG in the scenario planner it'll be more exciting. The overall lack of variety might hold me off for the moment, but the flip side is that as a vintage route it has the cute 90s station adornments which are a nice change from the same old PIS screens and clocks. Maybe when the Niddertalbahn DMU layers in it'll add enough variety.
     
  30. cadeshr6s

    cadeshr6s Well-Known Member

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    Pls give us the Br101 as subtition, the Rest is totaly fine.
     
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  31. Oelix

    Oelix Active Member

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    Besides what has been mentioned before - what I dislike here and on every other route are the houses that at night / in darkness have EVERY window lit, especially in a garish white light. It looks terribly unrealistic, like an old model railway building that has just one overly powerful lightbulb inside. This is acceptable maybe for factories or some office buildings that are completely and evenly lit but not for places where people supposedly live and sleep. Is it so difficult to block out at least some of the windows?

    This screenshot is from tonights stream.
    123.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2023
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  32. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget it was a devbuild, they played on. That always stutters and lags more, than the release builds.
     
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  33. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    Not true. The first 3 101s were orientred, but the others were all verkehrsred from delivery. So yes, from the paint, it would be correct on this route.
     
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  34. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    All in all I'm kinda on the fence about some things.

    • I hope the BR 101 substitution will still come at some point
    • scenery looks really good
    • Timetable seems really sound, though it wasn't clear if any empty stock moves or light engine runs are included from the brief look we got.
    • it's nice to see the BR 110 on some higher level D-trains, though it seems as if the cab car is also doing these, implying the D-train formations are just the regular BR 110 + n-Wagen. It would have been nicer and IMO more appropriate to have the BR 110 + IC coaches here, just for some more variety and because the IC coaches are closer to what was used on these trains in real life, as these were usually some type of long distance coaches.
    • Still not happy with the BR 110 on freight.
    • Still not happy with the ICE 1, but I get the subjectiveness of that.
    • Sound seems fine but not special or anything.
    • IC formations seem to be on the longer side, which is very nice.
    • Unique castle and signal box assets are really nice
    • Churches aren't that nice. They're low quality, which is really obvious for some of the ones near the track.
    • IR services run by the BR 103 with IC coaches are okay for now, as it's better than an empty timetable, but I do hope we'll see the proper IR coaches for this one day.
    • Not having any shunting or static stock with the BR 365 from Niddertalbahn seems like a missed oppertunity.
    • The BR 628 layers from Niddertalbahn are really nice
    • (this is more a general game thing) with the new lighting, the track ballast seems really shiny and washed out in sunny conditions, I hope this is adjusted one day.
    • I saw a car drive through a closed crossing gate in front of a train again. I had hoped this was fixed now.
    • Missing PIS is a bit of a let down.
    • Some more livery variety for the BR 110 and BR 103 and n-Wagen would have been nice. A lot of the BR 110s were still beige/blue or even cobalt blue with updated DB AG logos at this point. A lot of 103s on the other hand had already been repainted into orient red. A lot of the n-Wagen also still retained their original unpainted livery, though I can understand that they chose to do just the mint livery, as the unpainted coaches didn't have the modernized interior the in-game coaches have IIRC.
    • Having the physical plaque on the livery editor version of the BR 103 is kind of annoying. It prevents us from making the orient red livery that sadly wasn't supplied by DTG ourselves, as there was no physical plaque on trains with this livery (or most BR 103s with the original beige/red liver in 1997 for that matter), just a painted on one. This will look a bit weird sadly.
    • Having moving and static boats is nice.
    • The cars are now era appropriate.
    All in all, kinda torn on this one. There's a lot of good stuff, but also some things that I'm kinda dissapointed about, as they seem like they would have made this a perfect route. There's some things that are inherent issues, like there not being a freight loco or IR coaches, which are probably the result of time constraints decided upon by management. Perhaps a loco DLC (which I will probably make a suggestion for tomorrow) could fix a lot of this. On the other hand, some things like missing PIS or better church models are things that may only be solved on the long term, but perhaps in an update alongside the release of a loco DLC. Lastly there's the things, like a BR 101 layer, the coaches the BR 110 hauls on the D-train services (I really want these to be IC coaches so I can use the BR 110 with these coaches aswell) or cars driving through closed gates that I feel could be fixed before release, or at least in an updat soon after release. Hopefully these will.

    There's also a lot of good stuff, such as the timetable in general, and the seemingly stunning scenery. I'll keep my eyes open for more info on all this, and will see if I buy it now, or a bit later (with the amount of releases I need to think a bit about what I spend money on). I hope this feedback can help with the routes developement.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
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  35. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The current render distance is 2-3 times that of the distance between those two routes in the valley.
     
  36. Oelix

    Oelix Active Member

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    I mean, you can see the parallel tracks and their traffic in Dresden-Riesa at a distance I would think is similar to the one required to cross the rhine?
     
  37. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    No, everything TSW3 branded lags, stutters and micro pauses regardless of dev or release build. The game is just hilarious that way.
     
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  38. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Well-Known Member

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    On BR 101 substitution, I agree. BR 101 should maybe substitute like 2-5% of the times for the BR 103.

    But the IC coaches should not at all be used for D-trains. That would be utterly wrong. Silberlinge (in the different paints) were actually used to help on there, but not IC-coaches. Personally, I don't like already the IC-coaches being used for IR, as I was hoping for a loco-DLC: BR 120+IR coaches+cab car.

    On most of the rest you said, I agree too.
     
  39. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    They didn't focus on it in the stream, but it seemed the other bank route was not even there, so it was left entirely out even from the route-building process.
     
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  40. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    How bad was the stutters? Due to a storm and work on the line round here, I wasn't sure how much was my end and how much was the route.

    A wrong era 155 would still be preferable to a passenger loco on the freight personally. But I realise others will have different views on this and guess whatever they did they wouldn't please everyone. It's not a deal breaker to me and I'll definitely be picking it up at some point sooner rather than later unless some major unresolved issue comes up on release, just don't feel compelled to make this a day 1 purchase knowing we've Niddertalbahn and midland Mainline around the corner. One of which is already a day 1 purchase and the other a sting candidate if its of sufficient quality.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Still trying to sell the myth that 3 stutters more than 2 did?
     
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  42. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    The typical 40 - 60% of the route.
     
  43. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    If by myth you mean fact, then yes.
     
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  44. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I mean, after the '70s the n-Wagen were increasingly rare on D-trains, certainly the international nighttime ones that had remained in 1997. The IC coaches would also not be entirely appropriate. The most fitting would be UIC-x couchette coaches, but those aren't in game, nor is anything close to them. It is a bit of a personal opinion, but I feel like the IC coaches hit a bit closer to the coach type used in that case (doors at coach ends, long wheelbase, made for long distance travel), as opposed to the n-Wagen. Reality is however that no accurate coach exists for these services, and the the n-Wagen could be a right choice aswell, without cab car however, as I don't recall ever seeing a D-train with a cab car (as they usually travelled internationally by 1997, where the cab car couldn't function anyways). However, with no accurate coach existing, I felt like it could be a fitting excuse to let the BR 110 haul some heavy IC coaches for variety. They did haul IC coaches in real life on a number of occasions after all, and these would provide fun variety and an additional challenge with their higher weight.

    As for a BR 120 + IR coaches + cab car DLC: yes and no. The BR 120 and IR coaches both fit on this route, but not in the same trains. The BR 120s on these route hauled prety much only IC trains towards the south and southeast (where they were stationed at the time), whereas the IR coaches on this route were pretty much exclusively hauled by BR 103s (with maybe a singular case of a BR 101 or 120 replacing a failed 103 being theoretically possible). This would also mean a cab car could not be used on this route (and it wasn't seen here in 1997 in real life either), as the BR 103 that hauled these trains couldn't operate with an IR cab car, as it doesnt have ZWS (the controls for cab cars). I think a BR 120 + IR coaches DLC is feasible, with the BR 120 supplementing the BR 103 on IC duties, and the IR coaches being hauled by the BR 103 on IR services though, with the 120 and IR coaches only being used together in training modules or future layers (and maybe a singular service where we pretend it replaces a failed BR 103 on an IR service).
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I can't agree there; the D-trains were using m-Wagen, but they were painted mint green like the Silberlinge were and so I think the current setup is visually closer than putting in red IC coaches. However, D-trains would have been longer, with no cab car
    It would be nice, but DTG haven't given us multiple liveries in a route in a very long time- I think not since Sand Patch. Not even something as painfully easy as a black Clinchfield F7.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2023
  46. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know m-Wagen ever recieved mint green. All I've really seen is original ones in blue/beige (or even earlier blue and green paint schemes) or in a modernized form in IR trains (and later IC trains). It's a solid argument though if they were in fact mint green. I'll retract my initial opinion then :)

    The livery thing is a real shame. Just a few liveries can make a route feel so much more alive and varied, and in case of the '90s, so much more immersive. I'll have to try my best in the livery editor now, but it won't be perfect.
     
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  47. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but in that case it's timetable trains which would be simulated one way or another, running on a track which is modelled anyway, so the performance impact of them is built in at the route planning stage.

    When it's pure scenery as in this route, and there's no built track and signalling or playable services there already, you only do it if you can spare the impact on performance, or the resources necessary to do it, and to me it's a fair enough thing to sacrifice if they're already hitting the upper limits of performance, or they want to spend time on more important things instead. The absence of traffic on the other side of the river did not seem to make a huge impact from the cab of the train as far as I could see. Certainly I was more concerned with the lack of variety on the playable tracks, not the ones in the distance you have to know are there to even realise anything is missing in the first place.
     
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  48. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    It is definitely worse in TSW3. I had TSW2 .ini cranked up quite a lot and this stutters a lot more with vanilla settings already.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's entirely possible; goodness knows there were a lot of blue-beige survivals in '97! And I have definitely seen pics of a few cobalt blue ones in the 90s (BR 110s, also). But at least officially, mint was the color for all basic-fare trains, i.e. without the IR or IC surcharges; essentially, everything which shortly would fall under DB Regio.
     
  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There's your problem. The right .ini settings can ameliorate the stuttering quite a bit (it isn't affected by draw distance or antialiasing settings, at all)
     

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