They have it for sure. As you have a control from the cab, it must be. Also, it is stated on the waggons itself: TB0 is nothing more then a TB5 with a central control, which allows the driver to unlock and lock the doors. Even on LFR, you can start driving with the doors still open and they will close automatically when going faster then 5kph.
All right, OK. Point taken. Nonetheless, both systems apparently only lock and unlock the doors (at least on older slam-door stock), not open or close them. That may be why the T lights don't work.
Incidentally, thanks to this convo I've added "TB 5" markings to my Silberling in progress. Thinking in terms of Niddertalbahn (1992), an n-Wagen in the old paint probably hasn't been upgraded to TB 0 yet.
Very interesting ! I did translate the thread you linked with Google Translate : https://rail--sim-de.translate.goog/forum/thread/39824-fahrtechnik-für-br110-br103/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp It contains valuable information about how to drive the BR 110 ! It seems that starting with 20 kN then accelerating with 40-50 kN is good. When driving the 110 in TSW on the Linke Rheinstrecke, I find that 40 kN generally gives enough acceleration to be on time (even when not using notches higher than 25), while begining to brake at around 900-1000m from the upcoming station when driving at 120 km/h depending on the gradient. It also avoids arriving way early at stations. Seems like a good driving habit.
T light is only available when the coaches have the so called "Grünschleife", what is a door state report in form of a cable that needs to be a closed ring to lit up the T indicator. Each door Interrupts the ring when opened. That's the old method on cable pin of the KWS. Today this is done by computers and over UIC.
I really did strike gold when I stumbled upon that thread. It’s not easy to find such detailed instructions. Glad you’re enjoying it as much as I
solicitr, I just want to thank you for our convo. I learned a lot about the different door systems while trying to piece together a timeline of when what rolling stock was equipped with which system.
How do you feel about end of track 11 in Mainz? It just ends with a pole between the tracks. No Sh2, no light signal, no protective magnets, not even a buffer. On Esig you get signalled Vr0 on short distance, but no deadend Zs3, actually not even 1000 Hz magnet active. Unpleasant in heavy winter in darkness, and passengers standing behind a mere pole would also not be happy if a train did not stop...
I have some questions regarding the PZB : - If you encounter a signal displaying Vr 0, the 1000 Hz lamp turns on. You slow down. The next signal, however, has turned green in the meantime, and you see its repeater displaying green (Vr 1). If the 1000 Hz lamp already has turned off on the cab display, is it allowed to use PZB Frei to cancel the PZB restrictions and regain speed (> 85 km/h) before the green signal ? Or is it forbidden to use PZB Frei even when seeing a signal that had become clear again in front of you ? - I know that the PZB enforces some speeds restrictions. For example in the "O" mode, before a red signal, the PZB allows 65 km/h (60 km/h for the driver) 250m before Hp 0 and 45 km/h (40 km/h) 97m before Hp 0. Are there some rules stating that the driver should drive slower ? If I compare with France, the rules officially state that a driver should be under 30 km/h at 200m before a red signal. An informal rule of "good habits to have" states that you should drive at 30 km/h 300 m before the signal, 20 km/h 200 m before the signal, and 10 km/h 100 m before the signal, even with "high performance" EMUs (and moreover the French safety system "KVB" doesn't allow you to regain speed before passing the signal, even if it has become green in the meantime). Are there such rules in Germany ?
AFAIK, the only Informal rule" (but good practice) is that you should pass a double-yellow Approach signal doing or immediately slowing to no more than 40. Otherwise, it's all driven by the PZB speed checks. (Note that if you pass the 500Hz and then the signal changes, you should be under restrictive monitoring until you pass the signal)
I see. So if when passing Vr 0, it is recommended to slow down to 40 km/h. It is more or less the same than Vr 2, then. Is it the same for Ks 2 ? Ok for the 500 Hz, which limits to 45 or 25 km/h in "O" mode. The PZB rules seem to be more appropriate for a dynamic and efficient operation of trains, compared to the French KVB which is sometimes too restrictive, especially with passenger trains.
From Ril 483.0111: The gist is: If you have established without a doubt that the next signal shows a clear aspect > 30 km/h and you expect neither a 1000Hz nor 500Hz monitoring in the next 550m, then you’re supposed to free yourself. Essentially, you need to see the main signal and what the distant signal attached to it (if there is one) displays. If another 1000Hz monitoring occurs within 1250m after the first (700m until you can free yourself + 550m), you need to be below the check speed before the monitoring resumes or an emergency brake application is triggered. If a 500Hz monitoring is triggered within those 1250m, an emergency brake application follows regardless of speed. Seeing how Ks 2 is identical in meaning to Vr 0, I would assume as much
I just learned something interesting- for the Steuerwagen (Bnrzdf 463.0), DTG used that series' number range when they first created them for BRO- but didn't notice that many of those numbers were converted in the early 2000s to 463.1's (no folding baggage door, but normal double door). So they're wrong on BRO, but right on LRS (but also wrong on NIB, since the 463s weren't converted from 740s until 1993-94)
It's been some time for me, but this was a great run when I took it IRL. Stopped in Koblenz, Braubach, St. Goar, Bingen and Bacharach (over night in Koblenz and Bingen). Very interesting stretch of the Rhein and good time period to choose. I'll add this DLC to my wishlist. Not something I would pay full price for (especially given current reviews) but on sale sure, could be fun! Oh and driving cabs I see, fantastic.
Once again, thank you ! Yeah for Ks 2 this seemed logical but sometimes there can be surprises on things that we think are logical
I bought it recently with a discount on Steam, turns out my fears were not justified, surely because the route has ben patched. Very lovely route. The BR110 and n-Wagen handles well (the only downside is that the consist brakes are a little too powerful), the BR103 is also good but not perfect (the in-cab Hauptluftleitung brake gauge displays wrong pressures while it is ok in the UI).
The idea is that even if you ie. follow a train and you are pretty sure that the signal comes out of red before you get to it, it doesn't always have to go to clear aspect. Even if you don't have scheduled stop, dispatcher might take you through sidings just so you don't have to stop fully, and you get Hp2 for that. Additionally, if you would get Zs3 showing 1/2/3, the 500 Hz monitoring is active and enforcing 45 km/h even while you can pass the signal it protects - and if you had free'd yourself before, you would get zwanged over the magnet. Regarding going slower than necessary - don't forget that by going very slow you fall into restrictive mode which forces you to 45/25 instead of 85/45, so if you are not stopping, you probably want to avoid that.
The feedback in here has been immense, thanks everyone and you even have the developers chatting in this thread too, keep it up everybody and I hope LFR has more patches based off of this fantastic feedback you all have been adding into here and I do hope that DTG are taking note on potential fixes for later patches down the line
Research failure on DTG's part- of the sort that only matters to obsessive anoraks... See the problem? The problem is that DB Fernverkehr didn't exist in 1997. It was created (as DB Reise- und Touristik) in 1999, and changed to its present name in 2003.
Minor oversights like this are not what bother me at all when I still can't use the Steuerwagen that comes with BR 182 on Rapid Transit. To me the artwork is fantastic and some minor thing that is incorrect will never be noticed compared to something functionally not working. Programming is where DTG needs to step up their game in my opinion.
Question for German rail geeks: on a DB passenger coach, how are linke Seite and rechte Seite determined?
I also have two niche questions, regarding advanced signalling. First, do you know in advance that your train path ends at tall shunting signal instead of main signal, or is it presignalled just with usual Vr0? Do you have to be slowed down before it (as it probably does not have 500 Hz)? Second question, in this sequence of signals, if you set a path across the station, the first signal shows kennlicht and the second one shows Hp1, makes sense (let's ignore that the signalling is still broken as hell and should be showing Hp2). What about trips that start/end here? On arrival, the first signal still probably is far enough from vorsignal for normal signalling, but would there still be a hint for driver to expect stop at the earlier one? VKB, Zs3 30? And on departure from the first signal, what would it correctly look like? I guess they cannot both show main aspect, because the second would show Hp2 without presignal. But I assume train path cannot start with kennlicht either. So Sh1 from here, and Hp2 on the second?
Obviously this is irrelevant for TB0. But for TAV and SAT: on modern EMUs or DMUs it’s determined through the bus system (actually relevant for all trains with a bus system) and what direction is selected up front. On coaches, like the Dosto, there is a direction switch, which must point into the direction of the loco. Quite interesting in this regard is RIL 494.0251:
To your first question, as far as I know, you don’t know. Tall shunting signals are very often also protected with a 2000hz magnat and should be well within the standard distance from the pre signal. Usually in combination with a main group signal behind the switch that is protected through this shunting signal. If your train ends at a “real” shunting signal, you must already be driving under shunting rules (ie not faster then 25kph). For the second question. In this instance, the signal in the foreground really only has one job and this is to protect the switch behind it. I agree, it would probably only show Kennlicht, as the route would end at the main signal behind it. This kind of arrangement always has a lot to do with local requirements. I don't know this in situation in reality. It looks strange that this signal does not have a 2000Hz magnet, which it would probably have irl. But in general: Both signals can share a single advanced signal. Depending on stopping distance, it may show a Kennlicht in case the first signal shows Hp0, otherwise it would not distinguish. The signaler would need to have the possibility to lay a route between those two signals, as the route between the signal before this one is already blocked, hence, it would not show Kennlicht only, when a train sits in front of it at Hp0. The same goes for the siding, which would probably have a signal more or less at the same distance to the next signal. Let me try to find some more info on this special setup...
Ok, I have some answers and I need to correct some of what I have said above. As stated, shunting signals can also act as a stop for a train run. Today they usually need to be build on a pole, however, you will find them on the ground as well, as it was build in the past, or necessary due to local specialties. Usually you will find a group main signal after the protected switch. Hence, they are not used as shunting signals. To the "Zwischensignal", I have to correct myself. It is, in fact, an Ausfahrsignal (exit signal). However, the way they work and display aspects was correct. If the track is cleared to the first signal, it's called a "Kurzeinfahrt" (short entry), if it is cleared to the second one it's a Langeinfahrt (long entry). Depending on the distance, the entry speed can be restricted by the entry signal. In case of the long entry, the first signal shows Kennlicht, in case of the short entry, both signals show Hp0 (red aspect). After a short entry, the first signal will eventually show Hp1 (green aspect) and the second signal will show Kennlicht. This is what the situation would be like with the current rules. I don't know the historic situation in Oberwesel. It may have been different, back then. But I hope I have answered the questions from noir ...
Actually I was asking for a different reason, painting. The wheels are labeled on the frame 1R-2R-3R-4R and 1L-2L-3L-4L. But Im not sure which side is which
Do you have any examples (TSW or real life) of this? I didn't know that shunting signals on a pole might be used differently and thought that you need proper signals for stopping a train (as opposed to a shunting move). You never cease to learn. Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall something like that happening at Duisburg Hbf in TSW. Gotta have another look at that at some point.
Sorry, was still thinking along the doors discussion earlier. Yes, you have a Drehgestell 1 and 2 (DG1 and DG2), where 1 is in front (obviously…), hence left and right is defined. On the coach you will find it written somewhere above the bogies. On some you have the wheel designation itself, like on Dostos. Here an example: I am sure I have seen it in TSW as well, but can’t recall where. This is allowed according to RIL 819.0202, which I do not have a copy of, unfortunately, however, I have a document basically explaining the 819 in a lot of detail. If I remember correctly they have to be on a pole in order to enhance visibility (which is then supposed to be 350m). Those tracks are only allowed to be driven with a max speed of 40kph. But, as mentioned, you would usually find a main signal right after the switch that is protected by them. Here an example I found on the net (Friedberg in Hessen). Note that the poles even have mast signs and the main signal behind them.
On Niddertalbahn, there is a tall Sperrsignal at Bad Vilbel platform 2. RB 7083 terminates in front of this signal, then couples to a second 628 unit which is waiting in the pocket track behind this signal for the return trip. In general, translating "Sperrsignal" as "shunting signal" is not quite correct: any kind of signal showing any kind of red light is valid for all moves, not just shunting moves. The reason only tall Sperrsignale are used as a destination signal for train moves is purely because they're easier to see, not because they mean something else than a low one. If you've got a path as far as a Sperrsignal (technically Zugdeckungssignal, but who's counting) on a platform (which will usually happen because your train is going to couple to another unit already waiting in the platform), the Einfahrsignal will show: In West Germany Hp2 + Vr 0 (or Ks 2) Zs 3 "2" In East Germany Hl 12a (Or Ks 2 + Zs3 "4") Zs13 Yes, the rules are still different in East and West Germany, and yes, you're allowed to go twice as fast in the exact same situation if you happen to be in East Germany. Köln Hbf has up to 9 (!) Zugdeckungssignale on each platform, but they seem to be missing in Train Sim World...
Oh yeah, Gruppenausfahrsignale are a thing. For these, you'd just recieve normal Ks2+Zs3 "4"/Hp2+Vr0/Hl12a (or possibly Hl12b? Not sure if 60 km/h would be allowed) since in this case the Sperrsignale are in the same place where you'd expect the Hauptsignal to be.
I believe you can see it in TSW when your freight train ends at Hagen Gbf. It seems to be used at a lot of large stations that are meant to hold freight trains, I guess to cut the costs and/or to reduce visual clutter. Are you sure that Zugdeckungssignal is the same as Sperrsignal? I know about the 2/3 Zs3 approach when on platforms, but I don't think the rules are the same there (at least they are not in the TSW implementation). What I mean is this situation, as OpenMinded is talking about as well. What I am wondering about is, that when I enter the station and (I assume) Esig shows Hp2+Vr0, if I have any way how to know that the end point of the path will be sperrsignal or large signal, or if I have to just rely on knowledge of the particular station as I go through the junctions. Alright, this is I think what I wanted. So the rules are similar as in ostblock, where main dwarf signal can exist, but only on tracks where approach is at most 40 km/h and not on main through tracks. Thanks!
As far as I understand it, a Zugdeckungssignal is a Sperrsignal used for a specific purpose in a specific way.
Yeah, but technically on the image above, if I enter the station on Hp2/Vr0 from left, I don't really know if I am being routed to track 7 with sperrsignal, or track 8 with large signal. Large signal is, well, large and well-visible, while sperrsignal might be difficult to spot at large distance when the neighboring tracks are occupied, the station is curved, etc.
True, but as a real train driver, you know your route, so you know how long the station is, so you also know where to expect the signal.
Fair point. Thanks for answers though! I did not really realise that these are probably always present in the group signal configuration until you wrote it. Then it actually turns both my initial questions to a single one, because the other situation is also a group signal, just with all signals large. I find German signalling super interesting, it works on very different principles than elsewhere, and even while it looks very simple in concept, real life conditions force you to quickly go well above what is written in guides. Few weeks ago I was in Frankfurt where I shot this situation. Not only that the first signal shows increase of speed which it according to many guides shouldn't, but also the second row of signals was super weirdly placed. The track between the junction and second signal is very short, not even a single loco would fit there, so its arrangement as a large signal did not make any sense to me. Eventually I figured that it's probably just a path signal to visually show you where you will be going (and probably makes the dispatcher's life easier to set the paths more clearly as well), and only implemented as a large signal to be visible. Still well within the legal frame, but rather unconventional use The same place in stellwerksim:
Do you know why this difference is still existing? My understanding is that the 20 is a consequence of the shortened d-way in case of a Zd. I am sure the east is using the same physics, hence, the same danger should be present there as well?! Or do they use it operation different... I am pretty sure I have read it is 40. However, the rail sector in Germany seems to live of its exceptions It is my understanding as well. In addition, I think a Zd (Deckundssignal) can only show Hp0 and Kennlicht I am pretty sure this is a "lange Ausfahrt", as mentioned further up, where I was talking about the "kurze"/"lange Einfahrt". The first signal acts as the exit signal, the second signal only shows Kennlicht. I am sure this makes operational sense, somehow. Probably the area in between is used if the train is short enough and placed in front of the first signal. EDIT: as you can see in the "Stellwerksim" picture, the platform is longer than the position of the first signal. This most probably makes this arrangement necessary...
No idea if 40 is "safe enough"... Either way, since Deutsche Bundesbahn didn't have Zs13 and instead used Zs3 "3" to tell drivers their path led into a dead end track, logically they could only use the number below that to signify no D-Weg. Meanwhile Deutsche Reichsbahn could just use Zs13 and was therefore free to choose any speed they liked. I assume the reason the difference is still there is because it'll be hard to justify either making all the set-ups in the West less safe by raising the speed to 40, or introducing new operational constraints in the East by halving the speed... If it's used to allow two trains to enter and exit a track at the same time, like in Cologne, yes. If it's used to merge two trains, it'll need to be able to show Sh1 as well, to allow the shunting move for coupling the trains. That's it, yes. On a path out of that platform, you'll only pass one Ks1 (or Ks2), either from the first one, or from one in the second row. The other signal will be turned off (Kennlicht). Which one is active depends on how long the train in the platform is.
Great insights, OpenMinded, mkraehe#6051 and noir. It all makes sense to me now. Guess I spent too much time in England lately!
Sorry, I have re-read your post and I believe I have, again, not answered your question correct?! I now believe you wanted to do a re-paint yourself and don’t know which side is defined as left and right. If this was the question, I can’t answer this, I am afraid. I believe it’s a definition taken during development of the coach. I don’t think there is a given definition…
Can somebody tell me where you can select which pantograph to raise in the 103? I can't for the life of me find the switch..
Feedback: way too much stutters to be acceptable. Without the stutters this would have been a very good route.
