Lirr Commuter - Why Did They Make A New Route?

The M9 is made by an entirely different company. They made it from scratch so its the same amount of work as a normal EMU. also SEHS costed the price of being a TSW3 dlc which was (for the regional packs) the same price as a standalone dlc or alternatively the same price as a full TSW game with 3 new routes so.... The development of the route is comparable to a "new" us route like matt said

 

Going to get this if one sale and what they could have done was make it 2023 with Grand Central Terminal and Floral Park Hicksville third track. Remember 3rd tracks lacks a platform at Mineola

 

Dude did you see what Matt said above? MTA probably would have canned the whole project if it was set in the present.

It sucks, but that's what it is.

 

In that case am actually glad it wasn’t updated in modern time now. I would much rather have the route actually make it then not make it out at all

 

They make what sells. It’s all about money and profits at this point. Original LIRR was very popular and did well so instead of something completely different, they’ll build off of what already has been established and has a following. DTG stays in their comfort zone and often times, it has a negative reception from us consumers, understandably so.

 

Well I don't know much about the Lincoln branch, but my recollection of the Doncaster-York stretch is a snooze fest with monotonous scenery. But a well-modeled York Station would be worth the extra moola. From my TSC experience, the only really immersive part of the ECML begins north of Newcastle.

That's a good thought. I hope that means more diesels instead of the modern electric joystick paradigm.

That's a good analogy. I replaced many of my DVD's with 4k versions too. So why would people not want to do a comparable thing with older TSW 2020-2 routes, even if it meant paying full prices again?

 

I love your meme! But that means that it could be a bit of a waste of money.

 

but at the very least could (and I hope they did) remove the grade crossings on the mainline to show work on the 3rd track is starting like what was done in TSC, but if the MTA said a hard No I would understand

 

Well, "sold" is in a way hard to judge, because LIRR was a core bundled route with TRW2020. As far as I'm concerned it was "free," because I was interested in Sand Patch, Great Western, Main-Spessart and Northern Trans-Pennine; it's inclusion made no difference to my purchase of TSW.

As Matt says, rejuvenation of old routes is a valid strategy, and, yes, a valid for-profit strategy. I happily paid for Mass Effect Legendary Edition, despite owning all three games in their XBox 360 form. If I were to replace my PC (I should, it's really old), I can't very well tell the vendor "I should get the keyboard and monitor and RAM chips free, because I already own a keyboard and monitor and RAM"

 

Would love to see TVL extended to Bishop Auckland and a new loco.

NTP could be extended somewhere and would greatly benefit from a revisit for TOD4, updates, etc, plus a class 25.

ECML to York would be nice, plus a class 91, or left field option, a class 55 for heritage railtours.

Would love to see BML update or Brighton - Eastbourne extended to its natural terminus (Hastings?).

 

You could still buy the lirr as a seperate dlc. even if you didn't buy tsw2020. Also the PC specs comparison is a poor analogy as you don't have to replace a keyboard or monitor if you are getting a new PC

 

But why not do it along with the other two bits in the same area? Far Rockaway and West Hempstead? Seems to me like doing the area and leaving out these short bits is weird.

 

now that's what I would pay a full route price for. doubling the route length is a big task. just the airport branch is not worth 35 euro's in my eyes. I read a lot of extensions are good or extensions are bad. I don't think it's that simple. how the extension interacts with the original route is also a key factor, including the possibility of a new train. and of course not everyone likes the same things. For example Salzburg to Rosenheim is a great route which some people would like to München to drive railjet services and others. that would include the S bahn and another RB to drive too. although it's great. not everyone wants to play 2 hour services. so for some the branch to berchtesgaden would be a way better thing. or something I haven't seen mentioned. Go the other direction to Golling abtenau or Strasswalchen. extending the austrian services and one of the S bahn. for me personally I'd love to pay for all four of the options. But I am really happy with old routes getting a revival. SKA is I hope near finished and I have let it lay low playing it until there is a new timetable. but the entire Rhein Ruhr cluster also could do with some love. Especially Hagen to Finnentrop. If that is to TOD4 and has even more rolling stock than the two great loco dlc already it to me becomes my new most favorite route.

 

DTG will price DLC according to the project time spent, which may not align with our initial impressions of what’s been updated or added. So judging the price on route length alone is not really fair, as much work has surely been done to bring the scenery, trains and signalling up to TSW4 standards.

 

Fair enough

 

Especially considering that the West Hampstead Branch is only 5 miles long

 

Like Matt said above, they don't have unlimited time. 5 miles isn't a 5 minute job. If you've actually ran or driven 5 miles, modeling all the tracks, station scenery takes a very long time. They eventually have to stop at some point so the dlc can be released. They also don't have unlimited budget. At the end of the day, you can't get everything

 

Have to agree... 5 mile track seems a huge effort for dtg nowadays...

 

Seriously, speaking as someone who finds it difficult to even progress model railway style routes in Trainz these days, surprising how long scenery can take to do. Especially as we all clamour for detail way out from the track, doing urban areas (unless you’re Rivet who just plonk house models on the terrain MSTS style) is incredibly time consuming.

 

Were there ever plans to throw in Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, and/or East Williston in there? The stream shows that 1/3 of the Far Rockaway branch is there, and in the old LIRR East Williston looked 90% complete. Perhaps timing/budget constraints?

 

If this sells well, expect very few new routes in the future. I mean, why would they build from scratch if they can just use AI to upgrade textures and add 1 new unit and charge you £30 for it again...

 

Because people don't work for free. Case closed.

 

Simple.

If you're happy with an ancient DLC that looks like a zombie apocalypse version if LIRR keep playing that one.

If you want one that actually has some semblance of the real life traffic for that area, buy the new one.

It has been explained many times why the old one was past the point of being "fixed" without a ground up rebuild. The signalling and timetable was beyond repair due to the tech at the time it was made. It wasn't a matter of some devs updating it to new lighting in their spare time. They had to pour hours into this including getting Brandon to completely re-do signalling and a totally new Joe timetable.

The old one wasn't terrible because it was broken, I don't think it has any major game breaking bugs at this point. It was terrible simply because the game has advanced so far since it was made and the improvements to the game couldn't easily be applied back to it. Matt has tried before and failed. Needed more time and money than a spare time project.

That is completely worth the cost of admission IMO. The new branch and M9 are nice bonuses but when you think about it even the M9 if it got released on its own wouldn't be free.

Sure many people might disagree with my evaluation but there is nothing forcing anyone to get this new one if they enjoy the current LIRR. I don't know how anyone could still enjoy the old one or want to keep playing on that timetable but people are free to do that if they want.

Maybe DTG set expectations poorly by releasing a few "free" upgrades/extensions in the last couple years (and I am happy to have gotten those), but those were also much newer routes or simpler ones like WSR. I don't take that to be a precedent that means every route that gets re-done in some way has to be free. I will look at each one individually and if it is worth the money in my opinion for entertainment value I will get it.

 

In which case you as a consumer have an option to choose either one to enjoy i guess.

There's a lot of new things going on in this route. A hell of a lot upgraded

 

So people who like the og route, but don't care about the extension or M9 should have to pay £30 for updates to a poor quality route they already paid for...?

 

If they like the current route they don't need to pay anything. It still works.

 

Did you actually read what I said? If all they want is the FIXES, paying £30 for DTG to fix issues is a steep price. People shouldn't pay for bug fixes. Even EA don't charge for fixes...

 

As I see it I am paying for a new train, a new extension, a completely overhauled signalling system ripped out and renewed from scratch, a hugely more immersive timetable and TOD4 lighting. I don't expect that for free!

If you don't want all that then you don't have to pay out the money. Or wait a year or two for it to be much reduced in a sale.

The original route is now very old I had moved on from it years ago.

 

Even so, the fact remains that the signaling in the original was a mess hence why the timetable in the original is rather quiet. The idea that because they got the singaling wrong in the original that they should essentially resell for full price for a new singaling system, an extra 10 miles and a new timetable when there was already a busier timetable made but never implemented due to getting the singaling wrong from the start is not a business practice I can't get behind. $20-$25 I think would've been a more fair price for this in my view

I can't think of any game that I've played where improvements or upgrades to an already existing product were locked behind a paywall.

Also this route whist looking nice does have many reused assets. Penn Station looks nothing like it does in real life. East New York Station is too clean and too bright as well although considering DTG reuse assets quite often, that shouldn't be suprsing. So much for the whole route being completely overhauled

Just because we don't have to buy it does not make it immune from criticism

 

How does a revamped LIRR selling well impact new routes being made? That's just nonsense.

 

What "bug fixes" are you even talking about?

The new route has:
1. Extended trackage, some new and updated scenery.
2. Updated M7 and a completely new M9.
3. A new and improved timetable using TSW4 advancements.
4. Completely new signalling system using TSW4 advancements that allows for a vastly improved timetable.
5. TSW4 lighting/weather.

These are additions, not fixes.

If you want those things, buy the new route.

If you don't care for any of those things and like the 2018 era route, keep playing it. The old LIRR is a TSW1 route that was upgraded during the TSW2 era. It will continue working as it has been for ages.

Simple.

 

1. Every route in TSW uses reused assets. This is like the 4th time we've gotten that Penn station. At least this time they fixed the clipping.

2. Signalling in the old route isn't broken. It works fine (at least by TSW standards), it just isn't accurate because of the tech used at the time and can't handle a fully populated accurate timetable.

Of course the signals from a 2018 route do not work as they do in 2024 TSW4 routes. They shouldn't be expected to. They are "a mess" when you compare it to modern routes but they are par the course for what was going on back then.

LIRR 1 is a TSW1 route that is I think over 6 years old now. It simply can't be updated for free. We are lucky it was even ported all the way to TSW4, the old NY NEC couldn't even make it that far.

We have heard the reasoning why the old LIRR can't be updated over and over so it shouldn't be a surprise. The choice was either no update at all or a paid one. And as usual people are free to choose how to spend their money as they wish.

Just because DTG has made some other updates or extensions to routes without charging doesn't mean that is a rule they have to follow, they evaluate their plans based on time taken and return on investment I am sure.

I agree a reduced price would be nice or a loyalty discount for everyone (this is Sony/Microsoft's problem). But if the choice was current price or nothing I will take it at the current price (assuming it releases without major issues).

 

Honestly after seeing the preview I’m honestly glad and impressed by what DTG has done considering the restriction in place, While I do still hold my criticisms of the route it’s still very well done

 

I think he is implying that if it sells well we will get more remakes than new routes.

But I don't think so. Maybe one remastered route every now and then.

 

I haven't advocated that this should be for free although I can't think of games that charge for improvements/upgrades to existing content. It shouldn't have been released with broken singaling to begin with. Imagine if the devs who upgraded and fixed the mess that was Cyberpunk 2077 told players that if they wanted the improved version that they would have to pay full price. The backlash would be enormous.

Also they kept saying that the route was completely overhauled and clearly that isn't fully the case hence why I pointed out the reused assets.

The fact is that if the original LIRR was released with the full timetable originally and with the signaling system working properly, this route wouldn't have been re-released. It may be 6 years old, but they have kept it on sale ever since so not all players who own the route got it 6 years ago. Not to mention that improvements to the M7 could've been added as an update

 

The OG route came out 5 1/2 years ago.

It was built with the TSW 2020 engine.

It was upgraded for free for TSW2.

So yes there has been enough work done and difference in the game to justfy paying for it. You already got your free UG.

Besides most people probably aquired it in a package with TSW 2020 which I might add was $29.99 back then with 3 other routes. So most didn't even pay full price to begin with.

 

Who says I think it should be free? I just don't see it being worth $40.

 

Last I checked, Phantom Liberty was 25 dollars.

The old route's signalling did work, within the parameters of 2019. The timetable was beyond the capacity of TSW1. Neither was "defective," any more than a PS3 is "defective." Just way out of date.

 

Phantom Liberty is not a paid patch. It's a dlc that adds new content. As for the singaling, It didn't work properly because it was modeled incorrectly.

 

1. Fair.
2. If the M7 needed fixing, then yes, it's an issue with the OG route and it should be backported.
3. Could have been implemented with the M9 as a Loco add on.
4. Again, comes with fixing what was broken with the route. People are paying for a fix to what they released, obviously not as intended.
5. A feature we PAID for when buying TSW4 is not a reasonable reason to make someone pay for updates.

If you're happy to pay for updates, fine. Just don't be upset when others point out its a anti consumer practice. Say you play Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth. Would you be OK with Square Enix charging you £70 for a higher quality mode?

 

You're paying for a TSW2020 route to use TSW4 features. I'd say that's reasonable.

What is unreasonable is to expect something to be given away for free when it uses features introduced years after its original release. Costs time and money to implement these newer features.

 

LGV was given away for free
All preservation crew updates and improvements were free.

Calling it unreasonable is unreasonable.

 

Am I right in saying you still need to have LIRR 1.0 installed to.get the NYT LIRR layers? It was briefly mentioned in the stream that the classic LIRR is used for layers in NYT but no mention if LIRR 2.0 does as well. Seems like a bit of an oversight if not...

 

So you agree that you already got your free upgrade from the preservation crew.

And now that the end of that products lifetime and basically a brand new route has been built to bring a update to a previously well sold route 5 1/2 half years later. So yes it's $40.00.

How much is a loco DLC ? $22.99

So they are charging $17 for the extension and new timetable as a package. Or even think of it as a gameplay pack.

So $40.00 seems reasonable.

 

That is how it sounds to me. Shame we can't free up some room unless you only want NJT in Penn on NYT.

But then again that would probably improve performance at Penn.

 

LIRR got a PIS update and they had the Ronkonkoma branch trains run on the express track. It was an update. I'd hardly call that an upgrade or a major improvement. The route already had pis boards but they just didn't work and even then, the one that was implemented is inaccurate. Also how has the lifetime of the product ended when it is still for sale and has had some minor updates recently?

 

I like the PIS upgrade don't get me wrong but they asked for help sourcing the PIS designs from the community after people were rightfully mad that the PIS on LIRR1 was incorrect. So they took that generous support from the community and turned around to make them pay for something they should have had spent the time to do right the first time.

 

Actually, the preservation crew had the correct PIS designs but the preservation crew were not given enough time to implement them due to self imposed deadlines so they added the innacurate british pis instead. I wasn't in the forums, but I do remember seeing that stream about that update and hearing what happened. That was quite an odd situation to be completely honest

 

The new schedule isn't a fix. The old timetable is the best that they could do in the game at the time with the signalling that is built into the route. There was no way to update a modern timetable without doing the entire signalling from the ground up. That was never promised with the old LIRR so I don't know why people expect to get it for free 6 years later.

Likewise the M7 isn't a "fix". They are adding things to it that were never promised with the old version, like updated system screens, fault system, etc. The old one works fine and actually got a lot of attention since release (including entirely new sounds a few years ago for free).

Even in some fantasy world where they somehow were able to put the new signalling and timetable and extension into the route for free, they'd have charged for the M9 anyway.

We don't need 5 ongoing threads with the same moaning about $40.

People can buy it or not buy it.