That's a shame but not a deal breaker for me, their branding is pretty subdued and not in your face like some.
Ok, so why would they string them along in the first place??? I understand the your logic but that doesn't excuse them having a last minute switch-up which ultimately just screws over Dovetail, the developers and marketers.
Interestingly for me, I would have thought the licensing would have been some sort of contract. Not saying they can't have caveats and break clauses (which we dont know if thwy have been broken), but the direct output from the loss of the licence is loss of sales, so it has a financial impact to DTG. Most companies would have a contract in place that looks to mitigate that risk. We will never know as its an internal issue for the business, but it does surprise me. Only thing i would say is If it was the leak (which I doubt), then I would hope DTG would advise everyone that this is direct outcome of such an action, and that this is why people need assist in protecting sensitive data going forward.
Perhaps an LNWR employee played the game and took offence to the tresspassing needed to gather those silly collectables off the right of way as a key game element?
On X LNRailway have acknowledged "several messages" about it and are logging it. Will we get an actual answer? Probably not... I'm going to guess it's something to do with collectibles but we'll probably never know.
Guys, stop pestering LNWR about this. Yes, it's a shame, but it won't change anything and may make it worse. Leave the licensing negotiations to DTG.
But people want to know why. To go from announcement and then the following week pull out for no apparent reason will understandably cause frustration.
I agree that it is frustrating and does certainly raise questions, but realistically what can the players do about it? They're just consumers of the product that DTG are making, and are not involved in the licensing process. I'd imagine they wouldn't get a full answer regardless as it's likely considered confidential information. In the end, it just won't help the situation.
The last thing we need is LNWR getting messages on Twitter about it, just leave it alone. Having people confront or enquire about losing the licence concerns me, that this may affect future licences or put them at risk because TOCs don't want the fall out from some petty enthusiasts. Am I disappointed with LNWR dropping out? Slightly, yes. But do I want some railway veg acting as the unofficial spokesman for TSW? Definitely NOT. Just leave it alone for goodness sake and leave it between the two companies involved, we do not need the embarrassment of some veg going overboard on something that quite frankly does not involve them and could make the situation worse for future licences.
In lieu of that, I would like to share this post: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/a-message-about-lnwr-branding.84179/ Dovetail is specifically asking people to not reach out to LNWR.
I don´t think you can stop people and I´m not suprised it´s happening... if the rug is beeing pulled just before release, people will take to social media and demand answers. But in light of the SBB thing this is very concerning. More train companies seem to be pulling back now.
There was an NDA breach featuring the train in question. Coincidence? The little grey cells are telling me otherwise. Perhaps there were ongoing talks and an agreement hadn’t yet been reached and then all of a sudden a picture appears in public of the train with the livery already done. Kinda like those people who build a massive outhouse in their garden before actually getting planning permission and it ends up having to be demolished, DTG had jumped the gun and made the livery and the revelation that they had already done so without full permission put an end to negotiations and all branding had to be pulled. Had the breach not happened then permission may have been granted. If this is what happened, those people who said the leak wasn’t a big deal have now been schooled. PS - it’s only a theory, could have been something entirely different.
I can't physically stop them. But I can certainly let them know it's doing more harm then good... If they want to shoot themselves in the foot and put future licences at risk then fair enough. But, if not, I advise them to keep their nose out of something that doesn't concern them. LNWRs day to day job is transporting real life passengers, not having to deal with the railway veg concerned that play a simulator game... (BTW, my post is not meant to come across aggressive towards you personally)
SierraOscar95 TSW Mobs on social media going after train companies is something, that does not suprise me, but it is very concerning. We might be going towards a future with unbranded trains on every route, because all the railway companies get scared and pull out. Beeing the biggest Train Simulator with lots of kids and teenagers on consoles is not always good news, it seems... TSC and other games fly under the radar and seem to have no problem or just add the branding freeware afterwards.
lol, it's always those pesky kids with their new fangled consoles, the game would be so much better if it was only available on etch-a-sketch.
They may have seen something (*cough* Euston) they didn't like - or something happened. LNWR have never given a license before so it's not as if they've ended a historical agreement abruptly, it's a first time partnership which they withdrew. The wording of the first announcement also suggests DTG had the "understanding" they had the license - which to me suggests that caveats were in play and that it was depending on something(s) being done. If it was any concern about the 350 (like SBB or LIRR's) then they'd have told DTG to remove or simplify the 350 - not remove logos. Idk their reason. Ask them, I guess.
LNWR and WMR are the same company. West Midlands Trains - Wikipedia. And you'll remember that WMR have indeed had a TSW route before. "don't do this."
I have to agree with the speculation, the leak happening and DTG having "understanding that we had permission to use the LNWR brand" only for it to change at the last reads as if they did have a contract in place, only for one of the two parties to violate it. And unfortunately I could easily believe said leak being the catalyst for the termination of the contract. I actually remember making this post years ago, with a rather relevant section to some of the recent talking points. (The section from about 7:44 to 10:10 is the part most relevant for what I'm talking about.) Important Note: The video and text is a part of my original post. But I'm excluding it from the quote and putting it in this post so that you don't need to go to the OG post to watch the section in question. Not to mention I think it's relevant enough for the leak discussion to be on topic anyways. Edit: Resized the text to normal size as opposed to shrunk down text, I don't it's needed here like it was with the OG post.
I have always said I am happy to have unbranded trains where branding is not possible so this won't change anything for me. The logo is unimportant as long as the train works and has some similarity in terms of colours and patterns. It does seem a little pathetic from the operator to withdraw their licence to use branding and reflects badly on them.
After the update today in announcements I'm not surprised they pulled the license. Who wants to deal with a company that's has such a proactive community? They probably just not want to deal with people asking questions about a game they are playing. I don't think I can remember a game where the community engaged with social media channels of brands featured in a game. Next time the Formula 1 game sucks I'm gonna call Ferrari and Mercedes
Mind you DTG could save a shedload of money by bringing unbranded trains into their game. Just saying.
I'd like to point out messages I've seen on X haven't been rude or aggressive, just general curiosity as to why the sudden change... it's not unreasonable. Today's announcement should've been made at the same time as the withdraw imo. Hey ho...
Maybe in future there needs to be some written contract, so that the train company can’t do a Micky mouse at the last minute and once development of a route has started. I can’t imagine DTG went into making WCML knowing the 350 would be unbranded.
Thing is from what DTG have said in the past it sounds like they already do that. I remember specifically back during TSW2 Matt & Protagonist were asked about branding, and had mentioned a US chemical railroad had actually declined to license a route during the early Railworks era. They were already a good way though development (I think they mentioned something between 40% to 50%) and had to completely scrap the project due to the licensing issue. And from that point DTG always makes sure they have licenses acquired and ready before development starts on routes. PS: If someone has any clue what video this was said in, please let me know, I would like to actually link it here if possible.
I think there needs to be tougher regulations in place, in a form of a contract and possibly legal representation involved. DTG need to change their methods in how they conduct business with these train companies. I’d love to know the procedure what goes on behind the scenes in securing a route to make. It can’t be as simple as ringing up a fella at the corporate HQ and asking for permission, if it is than there lies the problem. No legal binding, just word of mouth. Not good enough.
This. No way did they not have it in place. Isn't whole point of their LAMPOIL system to make sure this doesn't happen. highly doubt they made a route "on the off chance". JD said in another post it was "withdrawn last week" which sounds like they had a license but now don't. For what reason I doubt we will ever know. Unlikely DTG will say anything as it could cause issues with future licensing. Give it a year and after LNWR falls back into DfT control, then the trains and signage may look like this anyway. The route is just a bit of foresight to 2026! Taking of Avanti, did notice on the stream when I think Daisy said about the charging tables something like "if they work", Matt was very quick t say of course they work perfectly all the time. He's probably been sat round all morning dreading a call from Avanti withdrawing the license for insulting the charging tables.
Agreed. Verbally harassing LWR on social media isn’t the best course of action, if anything it will impact future content for the game. The last thing LWR wants is bunch of angry rail fans cursing them out. It’s not ideal having no branding, but it still won’t lessen the fun I’ll have playing the WCML.
Yeah seems like a silly thing to have said, nevermind from a dev, but from someone who works for another TOC too. Fresh off the heals off already losing a license & the clearly focused interest Avanti had in having the refurb replicated in game. Seems like it would be a stupid to take a dig at Avanti.
Never ever insult those from which you stand to benefit. Customers, licensors, etc. Take them for granted at your peril.
I'd avoid mentioning any small slip ups made on the stream, just incase someone of any importance is reading! Haha
The stream was quite comical. Don’t know how many times Matt jumped in, whispered to Daisy to correct her. I can just picture it. All the LWR executives now around the table watching a big screen and clinching their fists in disbelief, whilst Matt is sweating bullets lol. No wonder he sounded so on edge last night.
While (I assume) your post was at least somewhat in jest, given that there was not only the very recent withdrawal of the license but also a TOC staff member on the stream, I think it was probably very likely that someone from LNWRs legal representatives was viewing to determine if DTG were compliant with the legal request made of them
I think the leak was indirectly involved. It was probably the first time WM saw their branding being used without their expressed and continuing consent. I'd agree that canvassing WM over the situation when only DTG and WM know the full story is silly and could result the 350s having to be put back into their original livery.
Operators and businesses in general don't sit around on forums looking for critical comments from individuals to decide how to conduct their business with other companies in future. If they do then they are more pathetic than I first suggested. In my opinion, withdrawing a branding licence just before release IS pathetic. If they don't like criticism of their actions, its their problem. Personally, I don't care whether their logo is in the game or not. The train looks good enough without it.
Also enjoyed Matt telling Daisy to slow down with the start of the guard mode section - and having to repeat it when she didn't. Just how JD/Alex/us must feel
Without all of the facts we don't know where the blame lies so it's premature to call WM names. Maybe you know more than me though.
Yep, the sense of entitlement from a few is way past the boundary of acceptable to me. By sending a message, even polite, to a potential client of a company YOU DONT WORK FOR, it risks relationships and future content. Quite simply it's none of our business. Whatever you think about the pulling of the licence, its just not acceptable to go beyond the forum or discord messages. If community members continue to do it, DTG may well take the stance that they are going unbranded for all future routes. Between this and people saying Matt should resign, I think a few need to grow up and take a step back. That's people's livelihoods and businesses you have no right to interfere with.
In Great Britain, the rail network is basically privatised, so there are various private companies that operate the trains. We call these Train Operating Companies (TOC). Examples include the publicly owned London Northeastern Railway, the privately owned Avanti West Coast, and the topic of this thread, London Northwestern Railway.
Sorry, as said above it is Train Operating Company, and they are the companies which operate passenger services across the network, such as those mentioned above. You will likely also see the term FOCs which is used for Freight Operating Companies, who are the various companies transporting freight across the network, such as GBRF.
It is quite possible that LNWR don't know what the situation is themselves. There was an election in the UK in July, the old (Conservative) government lost and a new (Labour) government was elected. The new government has its own ideas about how to run Britain's railways. They have already stated that franchises will not be renewed or extended after the current contracts expire. The current contract for LNWR can end at a date chosen by the government, not before 15 September 2024 and not after 20 September 2026. The government is required to give a certain amount of notice (I am not sure how much) and have not yet given notice. When the government does give notice it should be published on government websites.
