London Overground Mildmay Line: Stratford-willesden Junction Discussion Thread

I mean proper track laying can take seconds or hours (with easements - I mean i did the track for the original North London Line on TS (not the goblin section but all the bits surrounding it). Although the above i wasn't talking about a merged route but the original steam version Still though, thank you .

I mean scary to think that at least 3 routes were built from or use sections from South London & Thameslink (North London, North London & Goblin, Chatham Main Line (not medway), and also Chatham to Ramsgate and Dover (the thameslink core)

 

The problem some of the counter arguments don't understand is, no one doubts that a lot of work has gone into this route, and as a small personal diorama it does looks good. No one's denying that, however, feedback on this type of thing is absolutely crucial...

Just because something looks visually good, that doesn't necessarily translate to hours of good gameplay if it is extremely short. It can look as pretty as you want but that doesn't mean 12 miles is going to be extremely immersive route does it? As I keep saying, the word diarama comes to mind. Very small, short and pretty. But very limited if you don't have full end to end services.... It'll get pretty boring very quickly.

And then you get the argument about the layering ability of this route, and again, I'm all for as many realistic layers as possible in a route... But, if the unplayable AI layers are one of the biggest selling points to make a very short route worthwhile, why not just log in to Railcam and watch real trains? Unplayable AI layers are fantastic and are a key feature in making a route immersve, but I think the unplayable AI layers are being oversold in this instance. Driving a 66 over 12 miles? Yeah... Not for me I am afraid. Driving a 378 on part of a short London Overground route? Nah... It honestly just baffles me this would be a payware route in its current form.

Do I respect the fella who made this on his own? Of course I do, it is certainly an achievement. Do I think it's a good idea in its current limited form as a payware route... Absolutely not. That is constructive criticism, not a personal attack. He has got the visuals, and detail perfect. But outside of that to me if just seems a bit of a novelty route and nothing more at the moment just on the basis of it's length and the services it has to offer.

The other problem I think people are overlooking is, if you accept these type of developments and pay for them, you will start the ball rolling with other developers thinking this is acceptable and creating small, cut off, partial routes and charging you full price for the pleasure. Absolutely not for me, if you create a micro route that has end to end points you need to include the full route and operations, otherwise it really is pointless.

It's not asking for the world, nor is it rude, like others are making out. This is valid feedback.

 

Just a point of comparison for those interested.


Shame I no longer live in the area or I would've taken a picture irl too

 

The scenery difference is crazy

 

Horses for courses isn't it though. People are on here demanding the Dev take on board their criticism as if they have the final word on this matter. There is an attitude here of "if I don't like it then to hell with everyone else". You know what sounds boring as sin to me?? Driving an antiquated shed for 90 mins a run through a bit of a valley in the 1980s.

A handful of forum members are not spokespeople for what other people do or do not like or what others should or should not buy.

 

We do have the final word, because unless this comes out for something like £17.99, which it probably won’t and they’ll go for £24.99, many will not buy it. Doesn’t matter how good or dedicated the developer is, I already have numerous of this type of route taking up several Gb of hard drive space in a sim which has a larger footprint than MSFS2020. As stated many times before, this is not a charity where we need to feel sorry for people. It’s a commercial business and a relatively expensive one at that.

 

I'd rather an antiquated shed which can stretch it's legs on a wholesome and complete section of a route, over a modern shed where I blink my eyes and the route is already completed and and is a stones throw... Horses for courses aye? And I get good game play for the money I invest.

 

DTG and third parties have teams of people, they can afford to build longer routes (despite not seeming to do so) over someone building a route on his own.

Once he's used to the tools and confident in building routes and such, who knows what that'll lead to?

 

I'm sure the developer is level headed and can see for himself, extending the line to Richmond isn't a bad idea in future now he is use to the tools... Criticism and feedback can lay the foundations for positive change.

 

And I am more than happy to agree to disagree on that. Shap isn't for me, I prefer a 30/40 minute modern commuter run. The route is what it is Dev has build what he wanted to build. It is just a case if you don't like it don't buy it.

 

Having the connection between Gospel Oak and Willesden immediately makes the GOBLIN route more interesting for depot runs.

I will support this release, the full NNL would have been better but it's a new developer and who knows, if this initial small release goes well then maybe we'll get an extended version to Richmond and/or Clapham Junction.

If it was me making an Overground Route it would be Romford to Upminster and it would take me until TSW9 to finish it and it still wouldn't be very good.

 

The buildings are in the wrong place, the fence is a different colour, and the switch is in the wrong place, not to mention the trains are different

Literally unplayable

 

Well I sincerely respect that and will also agree to disagree.

I can see the developer is talented by the detail in the preview pictures. But without repeating myself I've made my stance on the subject incredibly clear so I don't think I can add anymore then what I've already written!

 

Like everyone else I'm disappointed it doesn't go all the way to Richmond, however I am more excited for this then I was for the Goblin Line. If the scenery is done right we could be getting some spectacular urban sights like we've never seen on a British route before. All the screenshots look very promising.

It'll likely be a day one purchase for me.

 

The skyline looks amazing in the picture I saw.

 

Same for me, I am hoping for an extension in the future but I am mainly excited for the 378 as I prefer them to the 710s. Hopefully the 378 will appear on the Watford DC line on some services and as AI on the goblin.

 

Can it be AI on the Goblin without a timetable update? 4 car length compared to 5 car?

 

I hope so, but even if the 5 car cannot substitute for whatever reason, I think that there is a 4 car variant of the 378 which could possibly substitute. This would be better than just seeing 710s on the NLL.

 

There are no 4 car variants of the 378 anymore, all have been extended to 5.

 

Excellent i was hoping they where going to release when they did the Goblin line Earlier this year.

Well-Done & Welcome to incredible Trains on there first entry for Train Sim World

 

I.T. did suggest on Facebook that the complexity of the editor - especially when being done with the aim of creating a commercial product - caught him off guard.

That being said, 18 stations and 12 miles of urban scenery is no mean feat and he should be applauded for that - especially doing it solo. There's a timetable with 10,000 services (imagine that but with Clapham added!) and a brand new train as well.

It's unfortunate we won't be able to get the full NLL but it's a very good effort from him and for me he deserves praise for that above all else.

 

Now that I've had time to think about this, here is my full thoughts.

From what I've seen, the route does look nice as I have said and I probably think it will have a similar quality of the Sufferagette Line. However I do agree about the complaints of the length. DTG knows that players do want longer routes. Players are rightly tired of having routes that end at illogical end points. Now, obviously making a full 400 mile route isn't possible, but the full Mildmay line is 17 miles long. London Overground lines are not long at all. Not including the full line was just begging to leave the door open for criticism

Now yes he may not have been able to make the full line because he is "learning the tools." But then my question would be why choose as a first route to make a dense urban line? Usually third party developers tend to make rural or suburban lines as their first route as a way of learning the tools which is understandable. If he wanted to learn the tools or get the hang of it, then perhaps he should've made a much more simpler route. I can understand wanting to make a line that you happen to use on a daily basis, but you are essentially opening yourself up to potentially biting off more than you can chew. He wasn't forced to make this line at the end of the day and certainly isn't forced to not make the full line and release it so soon. I wouldn't mind waiting longer for this route to release if it meant the full line was made.

I think the route having 10,000 ai services isn't breathtaking to be honest and is being oversold. Most of those services are non playable will just go in and out of portals. I remember when the preview stream came out for the Suffragette Line and DTG was focusing heavily on the layers and not the main route itself presumably due to the fact that there wasn't much to do on that line but most of those layers weren't even playable. Heck, I don't even use the class 66 on the Sufferagette Line.

Also I really don't understand why some players are gaslighting about the criticisms. I've seen some people act like people are just being mean to this developer or are being hurtful when that hasn't happened. There are those that are not happy about the length and that is understandable. At the end of the day, this is going to be a self contained line with no branch lines and little service variation like the Suffragette Line but at least that line is a full end to end route. It is understandable that players are not happy about the length.

Just because this is being made by a solo developer doesn't automatically give him a pass from criticism. Just because players don't have to buy a product doesn't make a product immune from criticism. Just because it is being made by a new developer doesn't give him a pass from criticism. That certainly wasn't the case for NASCAR 21 or the New Test Drive game which were both made by new developers. If you are satisfied with this route in full, then that is good. But just because people are complaining about the length doesn't mean that they are hating on the developer or trying to be mean. They are just giving their opinions which is the literal purpose of this thread. I swear that there some people that grow a temper tantrum whenever there is criticism of a product and act like even the slightest bit of criticism is harsh or mean which is just ridiculous. This product is not freeware and will probably be sold for $30 so people have a right to have a view regardless if it's positive or negative.

I do wish this developer all the best but I do hope he takes the feedback to make even better products in the future and perhaps this can be a lesson learned that players aren't going to be happy with short full line routes having their length cut

 

I dont know how like 5 miles is gonna help this? its still short but now with more stations added on. I agree that it would be beter if it was a full route and the power switch is atleast a little bit interesting but this doesnt add as much as everyone seems to think. The interesting part of the route scenery wise is past willesden. Goblin is only 1 mile longer with 5 less stations and I find that very fun to drive. Just making it longer isnt gonna make it less one note as its the same services just 10 minutes more of it. If you enjoyed goblin you'll probably like this one but if you didnt like 5 extra miles isnt gonna make it any different

 

Having to end a service at an area where the train doesn't terminate in real life does ruin the immersion. Also having the full end to end route allows players to do back and forth services without having to exit the train and going to the menu to select a different service. Sure the Suffragette is technically longer, but that is a full end to end route

 

I personally feel like the argument of 'if you buy this you enable other devs to also cut off routes' isn't really a good one. Devs have been attacked in the past for cutting off routes at weird places (Peak Forest for example). The difference here is it's a solo project, in an area dense with scenery, and with plenty of services. People know that and will judge accordingly. I don't think that if for example Rivet sees that people buy this and decide to cut off their next route at a random point, people will judge them way harder and will 'vote with their wallet' accordingly. I think other devs are fully aware of this, too, and will not use this route as an excuse to cut short on their next developments.

 

You can still do it at willesden junction. just get on the next train that's on the other platform. I do agree it ruins immersion a bit but that wasnt my point. Its more that the gameplay is almost exactly the same and that if you find the route boring 5 more miles isnt gonna make it any more interesting. The goblin example isnt cause its longer but bc its the same type of route end to end. if you dont like that route you arent gonna find this or 5 extra miles of it any more exciting

 

For me it is simply going to feel weird ending a local services so close to it's destination. You expect to complete a journey on a shorter route. I like to get as close to possible to being a real driver so it is a case of what is immersive. I enjoy these kinds of routes as much as long distance runs.

I understand that long distance routes are going to be different.

I still think it's exciting to see another UK developer and I look forward to what is to come from him.

 

Yes but as I said it ruins the immersion which in turn does affect the gameplay and not in a positive way. Sure we have a bunch of one handled emu's so the driving experience won't be different, but going to the terminal station does add to the experience for the reasons I outlined.

 

Starting to realise that this add-on might set a new benchmark for detail, realism and accuracy in the game. The amount of assets of real buildings and structures in London that we’ve already seen across this forum is ‘incredible’. With the 10k+ ai too, this route is absolutely going to feel alive and real, to a level (at least in a modern way) that we’ve not yet seen in TSW. This will become a route that we measure others by (I hope)!

 

One thing I would say in defence of Willesden as a terminus- I believe in real life London Overground have a traincrew depot there, so it's conceivable these services would have a change of driver there. Therefore in a way it could be more appropriate to end the player's journey there.

I might be completely wrong of course, are there any locals who have noticed driver changes there?

 

I agree that the route is a bit short, it should be going all the way to Clapham. As you can get a Lo train direct from Clapham to Stratford. If dtg were making the route I would probably be annoyed!

But as this is a new developer (1 man team) I think it's a wise move! I feel that the detail wouldn't be as accurate if it was the full route.

As for people saying this should be freeware! Like wtf! Stratford Station is a big complex station, the time that goes into modelling that alone I image is a lot, let alone the rest of the route. I'm sure a lot of the community members would put the hours in for free

 

on the German forum someone made a great comparison regarding this discussion:

The repairman is coming to do work on your house: unfortunately he´s alone today. He will only do half the work and won´t complete his job, but charge you the same price and leave. Don´t be bitter! Don´t be negative! He is working alone, have understanding and don´t moan.

 

My feelings on this announcement:
- I am incredibly happy that this route will appear. Class 378 is one of my most anticipated trains.
- I am upset that the route is being released in a shortened form.

I cannot fully support the dissatisfaction expressed on the forum. This would be appropriate for the release of the DTG product. In this case, I assess the situation differently:

- a new developer, working alone, first steps in the editor, started the project for himself, in plans he wants to reproduce the wide network of transport in London.
- you can be sure that the line will be reproduced in full in the future.

It is wrong to demand more from the author than he can do at the moment. This project may be in development for many years. I consider its release in small stages an acceptable solution for myself.

If I offered you to test a 10-mile section of my route, would you also be indignant why it is not 100 miles, as it was in the TS route?

There is only one issue left that will be seriously discussed - the price of the product.

If the author had his own platform for distributing his content (without DTG's participation) and offered the content for purchase as a free developer, many of those present would not allow themselves to express their dissatisfaction with the route and would remain grateful for what is already at this stage of development and would talk about their desire to receive a finished product in the future.

 

Neither of these things have been hinted at, let alone confirmed.

 

Nobody has said it this route should be freeware in this thread

 

That's not a great example. If a person charged full price but did half the work, a person would normally just wait until the full crew is available to do the work. A business would just offer a lower price or some sort of voucher if all the work won't be completed

 

You mean you and a few others want longer routes and you are tired of "illogical" end points. There are plenty on this thread who appear happy with the announcement, or at least willing to give it a chance.

 

It's not my cup of tea, but more power to the developer! It's a big project for one person, even just the 12 miles. It's a part time passion project, so that further limits the time he can put into it. Given his previous hints that he'd like to do a full 'London network" then it stands to reason he may just keep adding to this route and additional ones in the area to slowly get there. But, as they say you have to start somewhere.

 

The thing that I noticed is how passionate the developer is about his work. His original ambition appeared to be what looked like all of the LO routes and more besides, I have no doubt that this will be a quality piece of work and if it's well supported he may feel more inclined to add additional sections using the track he's already laid.

The really important thing is that we have a new traction builder here, the Class 378 is extremely useful and could be reasonably modded to be a 376 if we get more South Eastern routes.

Finally, the comment about the sheer volume of AI traffic is very exciting. The more the merrier for me as single traction routes can feel really lifeless.

 

Except it's not a good comparison because the route has been marketed as Stratford to Willesden from the start, no false advertising going on here

 

Er, no I can't.

 

Yes, because a repairman in your home and a train sim DLC are comparable..

 

I’m not going to pretend to know how difficult it is to produce a route single handedly, but knowing how much I struggle just to create a single scenario with the editor, I wish the dev the very best of luck!

Those comparison shots with the WIP 378 and 710 on WCMLS were pretty incredible, I’ll certainly be following this with interest.

I do get the disappointment, but with the 10k AI and playable services, it would have been a monster even going to Clapham, which would have added untold numbers on top of that.
Anything that adds something new, like the 378, is a win for me!

 

Thank you for releasing this publicly, Johannes.
There is something about travelling along lines that thread their way around the backs of cities & towns, showing the often older, less visible side, that provides me with a sense of being in an alternative world.
I recall that I enjoyed running freight along the North London Line in TS.
It's a great concept to follow on from the GOBLIN.
I'm happy with the length, given the huge quantity of assets required to do this properly. The end to end drive time is 44minutes similar to other routes. Given that it's taken Johannes ~six months, I guess most have been ported from Transport Fever etc. For me, given that the locos are undemanding to drive, the immersion will be from the environment, which I suspect is where his expertise lies.

Johannes original post with screenshots -
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/london.81279/

Social media -
https://www.instagram.com/IncredibleTrains
https://www.youtube.com/@IncredibleTrainsSimulation
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61568639972627

 

There was a tim recents were 4 cars ran on gobiln

 

Replaced by 710s now though.

 

I'm curious whether the entirety of Stratford station will be accessible, or just the Overground platforms. It's an absolute monster of a station, with several railway routes AND tube lines, so I wouldn't at all be surprised or even upset if it's not all accessible. Rivet and DTG have done similar with Edinburgh and St Pancras.

I'm praying that some form of on board announcements will be included. It remains my only real gripe with Goblin. The announcements are near constant on real Overground trains, so the lack of their presence is very noticeable.

 

Can we please just enjoy what we get and stop talking about all other wishes we may have? Let's welcome this new studio. What I have seen looks great, but creating you first route on your onw and then in a busy urban area is huge job. If we support this, there may come more.

 

So long as they bring an extension in future I'll buy it.