Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback

see showing my age! I was working on projects for the same publisher at the time!

It was my first experience of train simulation. Just loved it, written by Mike Male a Heathrow air traffic controller.

 

I’m not saying don’t, I’m just saying Skyhook are underway with working on our concerns, and we should allow them the courtesy of getting on with that, there’s nothing more to be accomplished until we see what materialises.

Hah, I mean, I wouldn’t be buying that sort of title and expecting to be wowed, for context I’m speaking about their TSC work.

Well, it is for DTG, Skyhook haven’t said as much, although they haven’t detailed what they’re planning - just that MML has been built with more in mind.

I mean looking at the various TSW versions, the consistency (lack of it) quality, the way it’s marketed - DTG are far from the year one talks of not having a repeat of TSC, and well set into their usual habit of milking train enthusiasts.

 

I'm just going to contrast the above highlights with this line from the opening post of this thread:

I have never heard such dense corpo-speak. I mean, Formula 1 drivers at post-race interviews have a lower cliche-to-normal-sentence ratio than the post quoted above.

Again, your work in communicating with the community is greatly appreciated. Unironically so.

No one "sniped" at you. You were asked some really rather ordinary questions, which you proceeded to paint as "being combative." The fact that your company just released the worst-rated route in the history of TSW and the third-worst route in the history of ever isn't a snipe, it's just a fact. Until it is fixed and you sway some of the reviewers to flip their thumb up, that will remain the reality. Yes, people will bring up the price point at every corner, despite you personally not having anything to do with it. Yes, your product will be compared unfavourably to Niddertalbahn. There are very good reasons for both of those things.

 

I would say you are sniping and are being quite rude to be honest. Also, where is the factual evidence of this being the third worst route in history?

 

It's not a FACT. It's your opinion, which you are entitled to. Am I happy with the product, no. Could I do any better. NO.
It has not ruined my life, and nobody died. At the moment, that's a good day.
So many entitled keyboard warriors on this forum nowadays.

 

My advice to Jane and to others doing her incredibly difficult job is to ignore people who are rude to you, and respond only to those who are polite and constructive in their criticisms. By responding to those who are rude, aggressive and personal, you only encourage them to believe that is the best way to get your attention.

 

Strangely enough no. But I do remember this!!!

https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/9935/ZX-Spectrum/Master_Cutler



Hentis

 

Given the large number of fixes and changes they're working on simultaneously, including some added on the fly based on feedback in this thread like the mid-track bushes, it's absolutely reasonable to have no idea whatsoever when the "done for now" stage will be reached. Sometimes you just have to patiently wait to learn how long you'll have to patiently wait.

 

I sort-of don't want to admit that I do, cos that means I must be "super old" too. But then again, I guess I am... I remember when there was only ONE green loco on the whole network. And one black one. And maybe a couple of yellow ones

 

It's not "my opinion," it's literally the truth. Look at the Steam scores. MML is at 26%. No TSW route is lower. The 2 TSC routes that are rated worse are: Köln Airport Link Extension at 20% and Midland Main Line: Sheffield–Derby at 8%. That's it.

"Where is the factual evidence" It's literally on the storefront.

 

OK. But dial down the outrage, eh? It’s just a game. They’re trying to fix it. It’s not like they’ve doubled the price of petrol on us

 

The truth. LOL

Aah I see now. You are basing your FACTS on Steam Reviews. Which are other peoples opinions..... I will give you a moment to digest that....
FWIW, Midland Mainline on TSC is a very well made route. Just not the Steam version.

What you really mean is that based on Steam reviews, its currently the third most unpopular route, based on public opinion.
The route is not as good as it should have been, so early adopters are upset. But that's the chance you take.
Nobody had to buy it. Everyone had a choice. Skyhook are saying they will fix it. Maybe they will, maybe they wont. Typing angry words on a forum is really not going to change that.

As nice as it would have been to buy this on release, experience told me to wait, and I am glad I did. If the fixes are done to a decent standard, I will buy the route when its on sale.

 

To be honest for me Scores on Steam mean nothing, Its how you the individual Joe enjoy the route. If you dont enjoy then fair enough. Others are. For me I like the route and was well looking forward to driving on it. But it has problems. Such as to the extent some of those problems are literally game ending where they dump you out the game (and livestream) approaching Nottingham and Leicester. But until there is a fix that's released, can live with it by at the moment by not using the route. The route is also sparsely populated with ai traffic which I found disappointing but I can understand why they've done it still doesnt mean I am happy and complacent about it. I'm Hoping it will be fattened out at some point with more traffic. Jane has said about they are working on an update, I dont think it will be too long to wait just go with that. Skyhook could have taken the stance of not saying anything to us about what they are doing. So just think yourself lucky we are being kept updated.

 

Steam reviews aren't the 'be all and end all' when it comes to determining a product's worth value, you know. The considerably less toxic XBox store currently shows MML as a slightly above average 3 stars out of 5 (6/10 in old money) and from the various videos I've watched that seems to be a reasonably fair reflection of it's overall quality.

 

Alright, alright I wasn't even particularly upset until I got called an entitled keyboard warrior for citing factual numbers, to be honest. If that's the prevailing attitude, no wonder...

That's where we disagree. I think that's an important method of expressing customer dissatisfaction. If no one typed angry words, we wouldn't even be here.

That's where we agree.

Well, that's not the case for most people. Would you, as an ordinary person, buy a "Mostly Negative" game? I know I wouldn't.

But they are a hugely important indicator.

Spoiler

I'm declaring venturing out to the general forums a failure and retreating back to logging bugged scenarios or something. Should've never opined on any recent releases, what a mess.

 

As an ordinary person I do my research. I look for videos or watch live streams of games. I make my own mind up.

 

Have some respect. You have been nothing but aggressive towards forum members and the CTO of Skyhook who has just been hired. And for what? Because she can't give you the answer you want?Would you like to be treated that way? Say you don't like the route, don't buy it and move on. No need to attack people for not getting the answer you want.

I buy dlc based on what I'll enjoy or pick them up on sale and none have disappointed even if the reviews are poor. Sure, bugs exist and they can get annoying, but do I go on the forums being aggressive to forum members and the company cuz of the bugs? No. I act like a civilized adult, report on the bug and let the devs handle it. I don't care if the devs have a poor track record. But I don't go around doing what you do.

Reviews are not a reliable source. Some people complain and moan for the sake of complaining and offer nothing constructive. People do not update their reviews after updates have come out, meaning the review does not reflect the actual experience. So saying it's the worst dlc based on percentages alone is ridiculous.

A bunch of fixes are coming according to Jane. Take it or leave it. But your behavior is inappropriate.

 

I didn't think I was particularly aggressive. I mean, there wasn't even any name calling or anything! Well, apologies all the same, if I upset someone. Communicating in English is hard.

You shouldn't dismiss negative reviews as "complaining and moaning." Those are dissatisfied customers, some of which won't ever come back. Some people don't update their reviews after updates, that's true. I say that's all the more reason not to release unfinished products. "Release now, fix later" has become somewhat of a common practice, and I don't think it's a good one. What happened to No Man's Sky is a circumstance that arose first due to Hello Games being a small, inexperienced indie studio with zero idea of how to market the game and how to set expectations for it, not a model to follow. And I never said it's the worst DLC, by the way. I said it's the worst-rated TSW route. Which it is. To be generous, without the price hike, it probably wouldn't even be rated that low, but, again, due to a multitude of circumstances and reasons, it just is.

As I've said, I'm glad fixes are being done (according to Jane). When the patch comes out, I certainly hope it will make the route worth buying. At the end of the day, everyone here, myself included, just wants more good content. If I sounded harsh, that's because I still have some sliver of belief that standards can eventually improve and this "release now, fix later" mentality can go away. Hopefully, the new hires at SHG can make a few steps in that direction. We'll wait and see, but for now, i'm eagerly awaiting the fixes.

 

Dreams of driving the HST from St Pancras to Sheffield, with optional routing via the slow lines at Sharnbrook. In about 2026, but worth the wait.

Almost poised to rebuy this but being polite and diplomatic (unlike some of the preceding commentary) I shall wait and see how things progress just a little longer.

 

Well said Jane.

 

I also wrote that I appreciate Skyhook's communication at the moment. But at the end of the day, visible action must follow at some point (I know it's being worked on). It doesn't have to be today, tomorrow or next week. But if too much time passes, the "child has fallen into the well." Because as soon as new DLC are released in the meantime, interest in MML will decrease more and more, while the bad reviews on Steam, for example, will remain. Will there be any big changes then? Rather hardly.

Unfortunately we've seen so many times under TSW that people said "we'll do it" and then there was a long radio silence. Years later, still nothing had happened. So I can understand if you are skeptical. Me too.

Personally, I'm someone who would immediately take back the bad review if the revised product really got a lot better. That would only be fair.

 

Ah yes, a mate of mine had it on his Spectrum and I couldn't keep off it (that and Spy Hunter & Football Manager) but I couldn't find Southern Belle for my Amstrad CPC 464 anywhere, don't know if it was ever released for that. The only train sim I had for my Amstrad was a text based sim called Lickey Route - I later went on to write my own text based sim (Lime St to Euston) whilst in college and another sim called Station Manager (which I never completed) on my Amiga 500

 

Brilliant. I got Tees-Tyne Pullman on the 48k Spectrum and remember being really disappointed there was no windscreen view. Everytime I put TSW on I always imagine if this was available when I was a kid.

 

I completely agree with where you’re coming from on this - unfortunately, ever since the widespread acceptance of “Patch Tuesday” this is now seen as the norm.

I hate it, both as a customer and a dev.

As a customer I tend to avoid brand new releases of software (couldn’t help myself with MML though, as I was really looking forward to it!) - it’s safer to wait for at least the first point release of iOS, for example.

As a dev I’m continually being told by the commercial folks that we can ship with known, sometimes major, bugs because everything can be patched later. Unfortunately this approach doesn’t really work, as we’re supposed to be concentrating on the new set of paid features in the next roadmap deliverable...

But … if enough people kick up a fuss the PO’s HAVE to listen, so I also agree it’s right to complain here too - just less stridently than some have been, recognising that in this rare instance there appears to be some genuine engagement. Being overly aggressive is counterproductive.

 

Steam scores are pretty meanlingless as what percentage of purchasers review products? I have never reviewed a product on steam. There are some who review everything good or bad as it is probably almost a part of the hobby for them. I would say a lot of the steam reviews are rants, some are comical!

Lies, damned lies and statistics...........

I do understand the frustration but at least Skyhook are undertaking to put things right so I think we should give Jane and the developers space and cut out the angst and let them get on with it and see what they come up with.

 

I would direct you to DTGs product output over the last six years or more...

Loads of people kicking up about releases, issues, crashes, red lights, OHLE going through bridges, releases being scotched etc etc
Doesn't change anything unless someone at the stop makes sure that any release intended is stopped at some point, checked for everything, run by some people who know what they're talking about and devs given time to make required changes BEFORE release.

That's not kicking anyone in particular, it's pointing out that if you hang around these games (ie TSC and TSW) you'll know that the pattern has been "Don't talk about it, don't show it to anyone so they can criticise it in time to fix it, get it out the door and hope we can get enough people to buy it so we can feed the cat and make the next one"

What they make is "good enough for some people" and given there's little to no competition it's not like we can go elsewhere to get some decent train simulation (especially if like me you're not interested in foreign routes and only play UK), so people stick with DTG despite the issues because what they produce CAN be good, but something somewhere has been disconnected from the quality of output, and that's been there for as long as I've played TSC and TSW

 

Yeah, it might have made me think twice about spending a month’s pocket money to sit all morning on a tatty old cross-country 108 to Newcastle only to get rained on all afternoon from my grandstand seat opposite GD in the vain hope of copping that last 46 …

Probably wouldn’t have, though

 

I don't think you can ever replace memories like that.

It would be nice if in TSW had more opportunities to replicate them.

My favourite memories were rattling into New Street on hybrid Tyseley suburban sets or one of the funny 101/116 power twin hybrid sets which could move compared to the 3 and 4 car sets or the class 114's which seem to shift out of New Street like anything! The smell of diesel in New Street is something I wish I could bottle.

Anyway digressing here......

 

That’s why I can never really associate with BCC in either TSC or buy it again for TSW. My introduction to the route was in 1976 on a Midland Rover ticket. Tyseley Class 116’s on New Street to Lichfield City (all blue livery and original red and cream upholstery). The only time you could travel to Redditch outside the peak was on a Saturday when the shoppers train ran around lunchtime with a single Tyseley bubble car.

I really am an old fart.

 

Well based in no small part on what your 158 author (cwf.green not sure of his real name) has reported in another thread, decided to extend a leap of faith and buy this. Also helped by the fact there is a bundle on Steam (which I already own the other items) which makes this cheaper than the standalone selling price - go figure.

 

I got to ride behind the last Class 46 on her last week in service. "LADY" - Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeomanry. Working a Saturday Scarborough to Luton service.

 

memories now of those very same DMUs and seeing Class 50s sat on Saltley Shed!

 

Ok, nostalgia aside, I have an update for you guys.

The plan is for an official patch update notification to go through social media channels on Tuesday. I am not going to pre-empt that with the list here, but a LOT has been done to date. For those outside of the UK, it is a public holiday here on Monday.

I make a disclaimer here to avoid any confusion or disappointment, that not every update and fix is on that official release. We wanted to share the headline items rather than create a huge laundry list. I can get you guys the whole list shortly. So again, the update list going through channels is the highlights, not the definitive list of everything.

I hope people are pleased with some of the major items on that list.

Does patch 1 address everything down to the last detail? To manage expectations the answer is no, but the overall changes are now in to well over 100 with some major overhauls. We are working priority first, with patch 1 covering a whole ton of things that the community and ourselves considered important. With lots of other updates too!

Is this the end of support for MML? Far from it, work and updates will continue beyond the release of Patch 1. Work will continue without a break. We just want to start getting updates out to you as quickly as possible, with work continuing until we complete our full target list.

I also have some good news later today on a feature that so many of you have been asking for.

Thank you all, both for your patience and support.
Jane

 

Working GSM-R and wipers that actually wipe?

 

Possibly a better timetable it could be

 

I wouldn't call that "a feature", so I'm guessing it's something else

 

sorry not being cryptic or trying to build anticipation. I just want to make sure I absolutely confirm the detail before sharing

 

Well... kinda cryptic and definitely enabling mysticism and speculation...

We shall wait with baited breath (and maybe a sandwich... I vote cheese and ham)

 

Extension to Wellingborough..?
Class 222??

Still looking forward to it, whatever the mystery reveal.

 

Not really surprising because mowing ones lawn let alone a simulated one,is about as exciting as "well" watching the grass grow.

 

Tell that to these guys...
http://www.lawnmowerworld.co.uk/

 

Oh it got quite exciting the other week when, braindead moron that I am, I didn't watch what I was doing and sliced through the lead.
Luckily ground was dry and it didn't knock out either me, the fuse box or have my missus dusting off the life insurance policy, but reminded me I should invest in a RCD and that replacing the lead is nearly 25% the cost of a new mower.

Sorry for OT ramble.

 

It looks like skyhook might be headed down the same track as DTG when it comes to fixes.When DTG releases a big update with a long list of what was done or undone it looks impressive on the screen but the affects can be just as bad as good either way beside without full testing,there can be just as many new problems caused as ones that get fixed.

 

Going to keep an eye on what these fixes bring, see if it's impressive enough to open my wallet or wait until next patch/sale

 

A history of lawn mowers,doesn't mean it makes for a long lasting exciting adventures thrill ride of a game for all who buy it.

Besides if it did people wouldn't be in such a big hurry to get the roomba version of a lawn mower.

 

Just to confirm, I have asked that every fix goes to full testing before release to ensure a) that the fix works b) that it has not broken something somewhere else.

An update from us (as people have asked for it) doesn't mean we are not still working on the patch, not testing it etc.

I just wanted to reassure you, this is just an official update for you guys and in no way reflects on the patch process itseld.

all the best
Jane

 

Given the "fixes" are coming within a month of release, sounds like they ran down that track rather than ambled as others seem to...

 

Hi Jane,

Appreciate the open communication and the responses in this thread. Not sure if I'll get an answer to this and I won't be surprised if I don't but how long does Skyhook plan on continuing support for MML in terms of short/medium/long term (not fishing for dates)? Is MML an exceptional circumstance (because of potential further development) that it will receive more/long term support as opposed to other releases from skyhook?

Thanks again for everything and look forward to the improvements!

 

I was joking... I'm sure goat farmers don't play goat simulator for hours as a busman's holiday, but people might play it for hits and giggles for a while