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My Opinion On The Current Rush Hour Situation

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by FD1003, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday I couldn't help but notice the outrage of the community, in front of the new Rush Hour article, and I think everyone almost unanimously (except the few contrarians) agrees with the fact that Riesa-Dresden shouldn't have been cut, and this "small detail' was buried in a FAQ and not in the main article, which is obviously, not good.

    This has sparked some hatred for DTG, with the same old argument of calling them lazy, incompetent, etc... and this makes me a bit sad, for me it's clear that this situation in very VERY far from ideal for them, but sadly this BRD thing is just a carbon copy of the HHL debacle, just on a much larger scale, and what makes me sad is that it looks like nothing has changed.

    The fact that DTG managed to over promise and under deliver even in this age of talking about things once they are set in stone, is telling, they are incapable of delivering the product they were developing within their time limit, and they are probabily working as hard as they can.

    I have an opinion of what happened but that's not the point of this post, I just want to give my feedback and possible suggestions on how to improve.

    1 - roll back the decision of cutting BRD, from your perspective those branches might have been the straightforward place where to cut cost and dev time, just like the high door DoStos, a new loco for HHL, and using the BR143 headlights in the BR112. Wasn't one of the main lessons from HHL: "some things that might not even be that important, the moment they are lacking [or even worse removed] gain a lot more importance because they are put under the spotlight"

    2 - take more time to create DLCs, even cancel one or two that might be early in development or planned, they are no longer in the roadmap, so we won't even know what happened, it's clear that Covid disrupted the 2020 dev cycle and a lot of stuff got delayed and/or got released without getting the time it needed.

    3 - Include more content and more trains. I'm tired of buying the same trains over and over and over again, with BRD I've bought the BR185 and the talent 3 different times, and with Rush Hour I'll pay €40 to get NO new trains. And considering what happened with BDR I won't bet on the 387 having a new cab or the F40PH being much different from CalTrains or the new NEC being better than the old one...

    I've got two suggestions on how to that:

    1 - now the 3 RH routes don't have to be released togheter, and you broke the original plans, better to get BRD late, than get a shell of its former self, people will buy the pass anyway, it's too good value for money, even if BRD didn't exist in the first place, people would buy it anyway just to get BML and NEC.

    2 - do more train DLCs and plan them in a smarter way. Just like the Class 465 for SEHS, Wouldn't it be cool if Skyhook was close to release a US diesel for CC instead of the 187? Instead of the 313, why not make a Class 385 for GCC? Plan Train DLCs to add value to newer routes if it's impossible to include them directly in the route because of time or cost constraints. I think the 465 showed we will happily pay the premium if the train is good enough.

    EDIT [24/09]:
    Let me clarify some things I should have clarified earlier.

    As the title suggests, this post is just my opinion, I still trust DTG to make the best (or least worse) decision, I just wanted to make sure to voice how I would rather see the branches on BRD rather than another german route (this post was made before the "official announcement" that the inclusion of the BDR branches was going to cost a german DLC and the countless posts and polls that spawned), I'm conscious this will hurt their profit, and it's their decision wether they can "afford" to make the community happy, I also suggested the train DLC option in case that might bring some additional income (but I'm sure the marketing guys figured that out already without needing me saying anything), I specifically avoided talking about the price because that's not what this thread was all about, and there are A LOT of other thread talking about that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  2. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    DTG simply must change course here, or it’s going to lose a lot of support. To say it cannot change course now is ridiculous. Nothing is impossible. The Dresden route should get it’s promised branch lines and being told to like it or lump it is just not going to wash. The feedback has been very loud and very clear. But as a community, if DTG does not change course, we absolutely must show them our unhappiness by not buying the route. Hopefully that will make them think long and hard about their priorities.
     
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  3. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they really should take a more community-centric approach.

    I know they'll say "oh we take your advice, we listen" etc. I think there has to be a lot more community input.

    Watch them come and say however they "can't" delay Dresden.
     
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  4. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    DTG are pretty old fashioned in that they are not really responding to what their customers are asking, they are not really making what their customers want. They have an in-house idea of what people want and are making according to that and their own budgets.

    Today, many companies have completely changed their models so they are far more flexible and responsive to changes in demand, indeed you can order many products to-order, made to your own specifications. But here, DTG are saying this is what we make and you can either buy it or not. It is a position that is crying out to be destroyed by an eager competitor who is responsive who gives the playerbase what they want and doesn't just "hear" the comments but reacts to them and has a strong track-record of doing so.

    Posters above have highlighted a catalogue of things that have been done badly and not corrected despite an outcry. I would say SEHS is the only time I can remember them stopping, building a wall in that case, and then producing something that ultimately has not gone down that well but at least avoided the hoopla that the earlier stream produced.

    I have spoken before about the internal strife where they can't even get accurate patch notes out and sometimes seem not to know the contents of their own patches or where work has gone to once it is off their desk and gets lost in the ether or a massive Q&A queue.

    This should be a wake up call, but so should it have been the last times it happened. Same problems, presumably for the same reasons and the same people involved. Not a good look.
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would say it's clear that DTG tend to over reach themselves and end up failing to produce the quality they want to, hence the backtracking.
    It's a constant issue that's rearing it's head and the glossing over of the hard truths is crawling back in since Sam stopped doing the roadmap streams

    I enjoyed Nat and Adam's report on Tuesday, but much of the depth of the questions on this site in the last month was skipped over and I doubt tonight is going to be better with Matt and JD

    Unfortunately nobody seems to want to own up to the fact that they say what they WANT to do rather than what they are capable of achieving, and then a lot of people on sites like this get rightly butt hurt when they thing they're getting a decent experience only to find that things get changed "because of timeframe issues"

    Well let's put it this way, I for one would prefer new routes and locos don't come on the roadmap until it's finalised what's coming with the route, and by finalised I mean the scenery artists have actually finished their work on it. At least that way we know what is coming rather than someones dream route
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What you said makes me think of Glasgow Cathcart Circle And Legends Of The Great Western. Two dlc's that nobody asked for. I remember seeing a suggestion for what would become Haupstrecke Rhein Rhur but a much longer version of it way before it was released.

    It makes me wonder what's the point of a suggestions forum if dtg aren't usually gonna make what people ask for
     
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  7. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    A few people asked for Cathcart Circle.
    And a lot of people asked for Scotland.
    As was said on a Cathcart Stream - it's a nice little starting point (for Scotland).

    Plus who's complaining? It was the best route In a while (in terms of quality and being like the real thing)
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't really the point, I can't say for DLoGW, but GCC is an excellent DLC, and it was created because they noticed there was demand for Scottish stuff. And actually that's what they should do, if they don't have time for huge 100km monsters like BRD do smaller projects, if they up being well made, like GCC.

    I just think the 313 is a bad idea, it will improve ECW, yes, but now that I have the 314 it's not the new fresh experience I was expecting, and for their similarities, and considering the fact the 313 is being delayed again and again, it's way too much work for a very similar experience to a train already available, especially since it will do nothing to newer releases like BML (and that"s the point).

    I really like DTG, and TSW but recently there have been too many mediocre or bad DLCs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  9. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I, like many many others have done some DTG bashing over the last couple of days but credit where it’s due, Cathcat Circle is great. And with Rivet’s input as well.
     
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  10. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone has been DTG bashing.

    There is a difference between bashing & being critical.

    Bashing is just doing it for the sake of it.
    Nobody has been doing that these couple of days.
     
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  11. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's not really about bashing. Personal insults are unacceptable either way.

    It's about voicing our dissapointment and discontent, and explaining how and why DTG's decisions have made us unhappy and have made us lose our trust. It's about explaining how we'd like to see things done instead.
     
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  12. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There has been some "bashing". Silly rhymes and oft use comments like "DTG are lazy" don't really add to the debate and are bordering on personal.

    The announcement is very disappointing and badly timed with the price increase but we don't know the precise reasons for this, which maybe if we did it would be easier to understand. I am sure DTG haven't done this because "they are lazy" that makes absolutely no sense at all! There has to be a commercial reason for it, probably time constraints. All products/projects have deadlines and once you have set a deadline and a budget it does make you hamstrung.

    It might not stop me getting rush hour as I was mainly excited to the London to Brighton route but I will certainly be looking at how it takes shape over the coming weeks.

    I do think DTG have handled this clumsily and isn't the first time they have inserted their foot in their mouth over the last year or so.

    In the end though, worse things happen at sea!
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Alot asked for Scotland, but not that route in particular way before it was announced. Im not saying it's a bad route or anything but the whole point is dtg often times makes content that not many even asked for
     
  14. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Well as I (and they) said, it's a nice starter point.
     
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  15. Jamy

    Jamy Active Member

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    It's obvious to me that this "Working from home" isn't working. Too many distractions. Not a lot is gonna get done with the olympics being on TV
     
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  16. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    DTG were this way well before working from home, it's just being less open hid that a tad (and only a tad) better.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  17. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    DTG ignores the community and has old fashion mentalities because they lack competition. As long as that’s the case, they can do as they please because there is no one to steal their market share.

    They won’t change until someone steps up and listens to the community, and develops a product that can challenge them.

    They say if we want the branches, we’d lose another German route in the cycle. They word it to seem like a loss for us, but really it is a loss for them (I.e. lost opportunity to make more money).
     
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  18. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The fact that DTG is a) discussing the issue, and b) following how much interest there is for the branch lines, is evidence that they do take an interest in what we think.
     
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  19. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's kind of the point of this post, I'd prefer the branches to yet another german route, and make the trains planned for that route as Loco DLCs for BRD, or other RH routes. (if they were even going to do new trains at all). Obviously it's lost profit for them but it would be better for the community IMO, unless that "missing" route is going to be something spectacular
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  20. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Dresden will be something spectacular with the branches. I’d rather take that certainty, than the uncertainty that some missing route might have been something spectacular.

    (Besides, whatever the missing route might have been, it doesn’t mean it would never happen, just that it might be much later rather than sooner in DTG’s plans.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  21. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    I equate your points saying they listen and take interest to a politician listening to peoples problems but doing zero actions to resolve the problem. It’s easy to listen and say you care, it’s different to act on the concerns and make things right.
     
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  22. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    We’ll have to wait and see whether or not they deliver on their original vision for Dresden.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe it's gonna happen
     
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  24. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    What I found baffling during the stream is the reasoning behind the price increase. So basically, you announce the price for a product, then when you have to delay the product you also increase its price because it takes more time to develop? Imagine if every company in the industry did this. Games and expansions are regularly delayed, of course they take more time this way, but no one increases their prices because of this. DTG must be dancing on the knife's edge financially if they have to do this. Or the upper management's way of thinking is totally different to the rest of the industry. Because anywhere else this is not how it works. And it's not such a big delay either. One or two months more development immediately justifies $10 more? Imagine how much Cyberpunk 2077, Crackdown 3 or The Last Guardian should've cost then.

    As it stands now, we end up getting less content, some of it delayed and costing more. And the quality of it is still up in the air. I have my hopes up of course, because for me quality and the experience is most important, it's not like Rush Hour is unaffordable all of a sudden. But I can't support this sentiment at all, and what guarantees that this will not happen with other routes going forward (scaling back, delay and price hike). I simply disagree that any company should make the customers pay for mismanagement or planning over-ambitiously beforehand.
     
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  25. argyle_smurf

    argyle_smurf Active Member

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    Similar to above, they want to charge more because they want more time, but won't give what we're asking for because they haven't got time.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    As they said on the stream though, they shouldn't have announced it when they did. If they hadn't you wouldn't know about and would probably think that the three routes for £34.99 is actually okay. It is likely that other projects from before have been scaled back.

    It is disappointing sure, maybe they will do something about it but I doubt it.

    But as I thought it is down to commercial decisions, every project in every industry has a timescale and often things get cut back, I have experienced it in my own job. If they were to add the branches they say it would take two to three months extra and we shouldn't assume that everyone is happy to wait that long.

    On reflection I still think the package is good value, if not as good as when announced and will be purchasing it once I have fixed my gaming computer.
     
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  27. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    Oh I'll tell you the reason:
    [​IMG]
     
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  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair I was one of the 113 people to vote yes to a price increase here IF that would result in more time and care to make better DLCs, and I stand by that, and because of that I am not too bothered by the price increase, IF it leads to a better DLC. As it stands I think it makes some sense, more time to develop = your employees have to be paid for more working hours, but I've never seen a delay where the extra expense was passed onto the consumer. Anyway even at 40€ is still exceptional value for money.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  29. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    But in that thread, many people answered the quality of the DLCs need to go up if the price goes too. Here we get a price increase AND content cut (which could at this point be argued is a quality drop, the route is not interesting anymore).
     
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  30. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    three routes for £34.99 is actually okay i like
     
  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course, in this case it's hard to decide, given it's still a massive discount, but yeah, as I said, higher price for better stuff.
     
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  32. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    It's not the price we're ticked off about, it's the combination of price increase and content decrease. Also the whole reasoning of 'pay us more money because we are delaying the product'.
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is a very simplistic way to look at it. Without money a company cannot survive or flourish.

    Everything, whether it is a house, a computer game or a plastic bucket from Poundland is produced to a budget. It might be an inconvenient truth for you to stomach but they have obviously realised they need to increase the price for the extra needed.

    It is still disappointing but maybe we will end up with an even nicer looking product for the extra money, despite the loss of the branch lines.

    You still get three routes for £34.99 and you haven't lost anything as you didn't have it in the first place!
     
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  34. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    Yeah I know this, but a reasonable business move would be telling your customers "hey listen, we kinda f'ed up with this, so we're gonna do the right thing and deliver what was promised even though it would mean decreasing the profit we make on this a little bit". It would not be unreasonable to expect them to deliver this route in a way they only break even; they make plenty of cash on the other routes. It would serve as a warning to the team to not overpromise anything again, as they themselves would be the ones to feel the pain from it. The way they are currently handling this screams "yeah lol you're not getting that even though we promised it to you, because I want that money to fund my next yacht". It's just become painfully obvious that DTG, or at least it's management, is only in it for the money and not because they like trains.
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It would be for a major DLC especially for those working there. A loss leader would really be for a small party piece not the most important launch of the year.

    I don't know the figures involved, of course, but adding the extra branches might not even mean they break even.

    I think they know they have made a mistake.
     
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  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    That's cool, but not very useful to the customers, is it?
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Not at all but at least they have held their hands up which they wouldn't possibly done two years ago.

    I am as disappointed as the next person as I was looking forward to the German route having a network feel about it, but nothing is going to change the current situation. At least no one has parted with any money so at least no one has lost anything.
     
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  38. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    DTG are not there just to make routes from suggestions, they can also have their own ideas about what is good for the game and still be popular. I didn’t ask specifically for any of the routes that have been released but I’m enjoying them all to varying degrees. Suggestions are just that, suggestions.

    The extra price is because they are already having to take more time to deliver the content. The branch lines would need even more extra time which would impact seriously on future DLC production, which is a whole chunk of extra income lost, and potentially lead to another price hike.

    This is the actual situation and more people need to realise this. Once the disappointment subsides people will still have some great content for a small outlay. Some people may take longer to accept reality but I’ve been playing TSW for a long time and accepting the reality of things is second nature to me now.

    On another popular suggestion of ways of protesting. It’s difficult for anyone wanting to ‘vote with their wallet’ by not buying this particular route because it is in a bundle, but the concept of a ‘vote’ with your wallet for any route would only work if Dovetail know for sure that you would have bought the route but are not because of something. Otherwise it’s just a purchasing decision. Giving feedback here on the forum, as many people (is it everyone now?) have, saying how disappointed you are is the best way of showing how disappointed you are without depriving yourself of anything.
     
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  39. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, as I said before it's still very good value for money, but I think the most disappointing this is that BRD was going to be the first actual, network-like german route, the only exception being RSN, but that route is starting to show its age, without the branch lines I fear BRD is just becoming a new SKA, and considering I own every train in it, I am not all that happy to get this route, the situation is similar for BML, yet another southern electrostar route, there is nothing wrong with that, I loved BML on TS2021, but again it's not like I can't wait for it. NEC has the potential to be great, but looking at the situation, I'd be surprised if the ACS-64 and its safety systems are any better than the TSW2020 NEC... Without the full BDR, Rush Hour seems like it's lost a huge part of its appeal to be honest.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  40. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    As far as pricing is concerned, there is something of a contradiction here. DTG has said, on more than one occasion, that a price increase would not change the quality of routes. Are they now admitting that the regular price is, at least sometimes, not sufficient to deliver the product that they would like to offer?
    I agree that the Rush Hour price is still a real bargain, even if you only really want 2 out of 3. As I said on another thread, there is no indication that a price increase for new individual routes is imminent, but at least some of us think it is probably justified, if it helps to avoid the "crunch" that has occurred with the current releases.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  41. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    If prices go up, fewer people buy, so it’s not guaranteed that higher prices equals more income. It’s a delicate thing. Increasing the price of a three route bundle to what is still a good value package is possible and is paying towards the extra development time required for these three routes, while still giving people a good incentive to buy.

    For people on a budget, increasing the price of DLC would likely lead those people to buy fewer DLC and for others it would stop them buying any DLC at all. For dedicated fans with more money to spare it wouldn’t make much difference to how much they buy, so there’s some more income there, but the combination of all those things is unlikely to increase DTG’s sales income, and would most likely decrease it as you price some people out of the game completely. TSW isn’t only competing with train simulators it’s competing with other games.
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe what you have said is why dtg were hesitant to increase prices. I personally found the reasoning as to why prices went up kinda strange. Things get pushed back alot in the gaming world but it's very rare for compaines to increase prices because of a delay. Frankly this doesn't usually happen. The season ticket is still a bargain but I don't personally think the reasoning is something fully justifiable unless they are low on cash
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  43. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Call it what it is, terrible program/project management on DTG's behalf. DTG and any kind of program and project management isn't looking like a good thing on your resume in a competitive industry. Their lack of competition is why they already haven't been driven into the ground.

    Think about this too, when they realized this, they had meetings to find out how they could sell this to us as a good thing (when it's a loss for us with a higher price and less content). Sure, look at the 'great' deal we are getting compared to the normal price, but it wasn't the 'great' deal they initially advertised. It's like one of those fly-by-night used car dealerships. They just know they have enough of the fanbase on their side to accept it.

    If they had good program and project management, this wouldn't have happened. They screwed up, and they are looking at us to pick up the tab for their mistakes.
     
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  44. Wieczorek

    Wieczorek New Member

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    Current Situation of Rush Hour is very good and i am happy!!!!
     
  45. Wieczorek

    Wieczorek New Member

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    Please stop write about this Theme is boring.Vivre la RH!!!!
     
  46. Wieczorek

    Wieczorek New Member

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    Long Life DB,Amtrak and Southeastern!!!!
     
  47. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    I too am happy about the current situation and I know many are angry that the price has been increased. Last year I paid £39.99 for the deluxe version which included four routes. DTG should have softened the blow by charging the same price or even more and included four routes in the package.

    I appreciate one route at a time as it gives players more time to get involved with the route. So for me it’s a good idea, DTG.
     
  48. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind that the price increased. $30 for 3 DLC routes was a steal. DTG charging $40 now because they need to work on it longer than anticipated is not an issue for me.

    What does concern me is the removal of the Dresden branch lines. I hope DTG will come up with a favorable solution (that keeps everyone happy including the bean counters) to keep the branch lines in the route!
     
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  49. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    a future separate DLC one for each branches
     
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  50. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You know you don't have to reply to the threads right?
     
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