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Would You Be Prepared To Pay More For Route Dlc?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by hightower, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This is my little digression - the disputes are a bit related to the fact that part of the community expects TSW to be a game (in my opinion it is the best train game on the market); the second group (e.g. me) - being a simulator. This is not the best simulator on the market, although it may be the most complete. In my opinion, DTG can do much more. This is my very subjective opinion!

    Coming back to the topic - I chose YES in the survey \o/
    I wish fewer more polished, tested, more expensive DLCs.

    very sehr mocno YES
     
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  2. hightower

    hightower Guest

    That is a very good way of putting it. If it were rubbish I don’t think it would generate this much debate. I think it’s the unrealised potential in this game/sim that is the frustration for many of us. We get annoyed because we care about what happens to the game.

    I think also that a lot of people underestimate just how many people like trains, in whatever capacity, from your archetypal train nerd to people like me, who are into simulations and find it relaxing and a switch off from their work.

    Make something irresistible and people will buy and play it, I’ve no doubt. I know a number of people in that very boat.
     
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  3. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    The thing with TSW is, it tries to be both a game and simulator while being neither at the same time. We get some simulated things but never a full simulation. As well as silly game-like things such as collectables en-route. I think they need to focus on being a simulator first and foremost.
     
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  4. sjjones98

    sjjones98 New Member

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    I understand what you are saying but with regards to SEHS in particular DTG had the original TS2021 route to guide them as well as plenty of resource material in the public domain. Why was the fence missing in the first place and then replaced with an incorrect one? Same applies to the OHLE gantry. I cannot understand why this was not done during the initial development and although as Sam said these are not deal breakers in isolation there would have been far fewer complaints. They do seem to be masters of shooting themselves in the foot!
     
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  5. 59321747

    59321747 Active Member

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    In fact, DTG can choose to develop in this way, of course, it may take longer, but DTG can add more developers to improve development efficiency, for example, the Eurostar route from London to Paris, they You can sell it separately, you can buy a complete route, or you can buy a section of the route.
     
  6. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I think that SEHS is an interesting example, but I'm not sure it is totally representative. It clearly had some earlier delays we don't know about as it was supposed to be launching before Christmas. The fact that it arrived at the initial stream late, incomplete, still in a dev build, still with things that were absent and then got bashed for being rushed must have been viewed quite ironically inside DTG towers.

    I wonder if the route making teams are not even in terms of their experience and ability levels. It would be a nice in-house exercise for DTG to see which routes were delivered on time, fared better at launch, which needed less after release patching, and which teams were responsible for each. There might be an interesting pattern.

    If it takes you longer to do something and then it still isn't as good, well raising prices isn't going to go anywhere near addressing the issue.
     
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  7. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    THeY DiD ThAt WiTH SeHS, it tooked them 4/5 years to finally listen to proper feedback from the players ahahahah. Rivet Games always done that with their TSW/TS products and i remember they ading a scenario on the BR 204 ( 2 hour one) to improve the Gameplay, that's the kind of think DTG will never do. SEHS should have been delayed and released when is ready instead of us wainting for 30 bugs fixes. But you guys always find a way of defendind DTG. Preserved collection is making TSW moving backwards, that should have stained in TSW 2020 , but yes, let's copy pasted and release it full of bugs.
     
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    How about we look to the future rather than living in the past?! What has gone, has gone and we can't change that!

    As for your comment about defending DTG, if you looked through my posts you would find I have been critical many times, however overall my postings betray my general feelings towards both sims which is largely positive, that doesn't mean I think everything in the garden is rosy. I will admit sometimes I appear a little contrary, however I do find cheap point scoring ("But you guys always find a way of defendind DTG") and pointless bashing to be objectionable and counter productive.

    For example I did at first think a fuss was being made about the colour of the ballast and the missing fence but on reflection I realised that wasn't fair as we all have different expectations and areas of interest. In fact I can see that small details like that have enhanced the route, even if the fence is the incorrect one and extremely ugly!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I voted no as in general I feel £25 is the comfort zone the majority of the market would bear.

    It's also a very subjective question as I would probably not hesitate to handover £40 for a decently done West Highland or Kyle Line complete with Class 26's, 27's and 37's and a decent representation of the 1981 timetable including all freight movements.

    However none of the routes I bought so far have even really been worth the £25, maybe NTP but that's all. The identikit German routes with their identikit Dostos held my attention for a while, but I'm kind of grateful I bought most at 40 - 50% off in the sales.

    And so long as (i.e. as in forever) DTG and their chosen partners have the monopoly on route and rolling stock building, no freeware or hobby third party option, we should not hand them carte blanch to overcharge.

    That said there is probably room in the market for a deluxe standard of route, just as with flight simming you either spend £20 on a Just Flight effort that vaguely resembles the prototype, or the wife files divorce papers when you happen to mention spending £120 on a PMDG product.
     
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  10. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Guest

    I absolutely agree that all projects have financial constraints and yes, I fully understand why gamers would love to pay more in order to have longer development times and prettier routes but what happens if the majority disagree and DTG make less money through increased pricing than they normally would have? Would you be happy to pay even more for a future project in order for them to balance the books once again? And so forth....
    In all honesty though this shouldn't even be a topic of conversation because TSW is far from being a new game and DTG have already had more than enough time to put their ship in order without the need for a financial injection. Subscribing to the idea of a price increase would be akin to condoning the way in which the game has evolved and whilst I do respect that some will be more than happy with the 'pay more' philosophy that, sadly, is something i'm not prepared to do.
     
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  11. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I mean finish developing.
    We see with every DLC that it is released unfinished. That there are sometimes major bugs in it, that functions are missing that should perhaps be added at some point. The DLC are released in an early access status. It is hardly believable that they did not know about it.
    Not to mention the bugs that always existed in earlier DLC. Some scenarios are unplayable and are simply not fixed, even though you report it and it is confirmed that it is a bug.
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You've never been to a massage parlor, have you? :cool:
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what you said. Nat has even said that if there was a price increase, not much would even change to the people who support the the idea of a price increase think would change. You have some that say the base price for routes are already expensive and some who wait for a sale or discounts. Increasing the price for a route and locos (loco dlcs don't even sell well in the first place) will probably frustrate those players even more and that in turn could lead to less sales which could hurt dtg. Ladies and Gentleman, this game has been in the market and using the same engine for 4 years now. DTG in those 4 years have had more then enough time to learn how UE4 works, deliver high quality routes, fix issues and had enough time to get everything in order with this game without extra financial injection. Increasing the prices of a route won't change anything. DTG have made good quality routes in the past and once autogen is improved I'm sure we will get a high quality route 50+mile route for $29.99. This poll doesn't even represent the whole tsw2 player base so if prices do increase for routes and if sales and revenue drop, are people who support price increases gonna support further price increases to help dtg balance their budget to make up lost revenue again and again? Whilst I understand that some wouldn't mind paying more, I don't think the majority of players would otherwise prices would have gone up by now for routes like peninsula corridor and LGV since they are pretty long routes and pretty decent quality. If people really want to get more money in dtg's pockets, maybe consider buying everything dtg make for this game. Also tsw2 is not the only game dtg make money off. There's Train Simulator 2021 and all it's dlcs that are doing strong and Fishing Sim World Pro Tour
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting that a (hypothetically) unprofitable product line be subsidized by profitable ones just to keep it afloat?
     
  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    No im just saying the other games that they make so people know that dtg make some sort of income off the other games. I am not sure how much money they have made off those games but I'm just saying. TSW2 would be more profitable since it's a train sim on console. They've seem to also make a decent amount of cash off of ts2021 with all the bucket load of dlcs there and it's still going strong in it's prime. This is me assuming of course
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  16. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Active Member

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    The question was simple - are we ready to pay more for a longer route and wait a little longer than usual. The author of the question assumed that the quality of the route would remain the same. And the answer is simple yes or no.
     
  17. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    This, basically. It's not unique to this game or forum, but the basic inability of people to express an issue without being rude or acting in very bad faith is one of the most off-putting things about online communication.

    I'd pay more for something specific like longer routes with more rolling stock. I'm happy with what I get for 24.99, and I'm not massively put out having to wait after purchase for patches to fix things, I can just as easily wait until those things are fixed before purchasing, but if it's a route I want I'd rather be getting enjoyment out of it in the meantime.
     
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And nat has said if there were price increases, little to nothing would change at all so that's a clear no unless you don't mind paying extra for not much change
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Let's put it this way, using an existing route as an example: Rhein Sieg Nord, a route which was I think done very very well both in level of detail, custom assets and (mostly) lack of bugginess. One of DTG's most successful.

    But- would I pay $30 rather than $24 for that route if it ran all the way to Siegen, the natural terminus of the RB/RE services that run on that line? You bet I would. Would I pay $30 for RRO if it included the ICEs and IC2s that run that line? Yup.
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean if they made the ic2s for rro, that would cost $20 and if if they just layer ice3 from hma or ska into rro, there would be no need to pay $30 for that. Kinda makes no sense and seems like an extra $10 wasted for what is effectively a 17 mile route for extra services that can be done in less than 28 minutes
     
  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Taking the existing 146/Dosto train and painting it white would cost $20?
     
  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG would probably sell a DB IC train for $20 as a loco dlc since it would be a "different train" but I would hope I am wrong on that.
     
  23. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    I certainly wouldn't mind paying up to £30 for DLC as long as the quality is consistent and small attention to details aren't missed.

    Perhaps if DTG sorted out their awful time constraints and were given at least over a month of development time I'd think that quality of their route/addons would be far better, and the high price tags would be probably be justifiable in my opinion.

    A prime example would be the pheonmenal Class 411/412 pack that was released by Armstrong Powerhouse. Pratically nothing was heard about it and yet out of nowhere it was released to the public on Youtube, It blew my expectations sky high. Although the £29.99 price tag was quite a bit of an eye sore, it is definitely worth every penny.

    Maybe if SEHS was given "overtime", perhaps it would be as rushed and half-arsed
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Same story with AC4400 from Searchlight Simulations - flawless victory :D
     
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  25. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    I take it you live in London. :cool:
     
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  26. hightower

    hightower Guest

    About 60 odd miles away.

    I was shocked the last time I had a drink with my Dad up North at the prices. It’s catching ;)
     
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  27. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And to think back in the day a pint was 60p......
     
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  28. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    My first pint was 1/11 (that's just under 10p for you young 'uns).
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Change back from a half-crown? Bloody hell!
     
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  30. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    LGV was copy paste of old TSxx route to cope with release time. I could pay much more to have Mediterranean flora and new terrain from Avignon. Same for getting a lot more traffic. My PC can handle as most of real simmers.
    All we can expect is like having perfectly well polished Calais to Dover as it is copy pasted tunnel + 2 complex stations.

    I would pay more for some routes to be professional simming and not half arcade. Why not.
    Huge anticipated routes could be released with double the price but need to be perfect with announcements, tested etc ...

    They could make 2 releases like casual and pro. It would fit and please both markets.

    Because as it is going for now it seems it is coming out of Early Access.....After so many years (CSX owner here)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    SEHS technically got overtime because it was pushed back. Although that "overtime" that it got didn't give us an overall good quality package
     
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  32. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    I haven't really read the thread, but my response to that question is this - if it meant that routes would be overall more polished and less buggy on release? 100%, I would pay even $10 more. The way I look at it - each route is essentially it's own mini-game. If I pay even $40 for a route that brings me EASY 20-30 hours of enjoyment (and that's for ones I'm not fond of, where as ones I like this number could go into the hundreds), I don't mind, because the truth of it is - how many other games have we paid $50-60 for that essentially gave us 25-35 hours of gameplay time. Now that's $50-60 per game, whereas routes that bring is the same amount of game time (if not more) still cost only $29.99. I believe that it would be okay for DTG to raise routes to $40, only if that meant we get much more polished routes and they lower the prices of loco releases from $19.99 to $14.99. How is it that we can buy a DLC with 2-3 train/loco types for $30 with a route, and be expected to pay $19.99 for a single train/loco?
     
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  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair I get much better scenery on assetto corsa dlc for about £20, I get cyberpunk detail for £35 and I van get assassins creed scenery for about £20 - 40. I’m fully aware these are different games, engines, genres etc....

    My point is that with this level of detail at £25 it’s ok but not an incentive to give more. Above £25-30 I’m then in the realms of being able to get a whole new game.

    To quote your “FML” , I see your point yes but to me it does not represent value against cost.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I love playing ACC. And that game is not particularly expensive either. $35 is at the relm of getting a new game. What would even be the value of increasing costs when not much would even change as confirmed by Nat. What if you spent $35 on a route that had the same quality as sehs or worse. I don't think you would be getting good value for the cost. I feel this thread is pointless because whilst I get why some people think that increasing prices may lead to change, the reality is that it won't be the case as confirmed by Nat. You could spend $35 on a route that may not be worth $35 and that might get some upset. I feel like the issue is DTG doesn't really invest their resources properly to deliver good quality routes all the time. Look at HMA for instance, that route was a high quality route but ever since it's really gone downhill after that. Maybe if they invest more resources to deliver good quality routes, then the return investment on that would be less negative reviews and more Day 1 sales. SEHS sure didn't have the best quality all round but I bet it sold like hotcakes. If people really want to get more money into dtg's pockets, maybe consider buying all the dlc for tsw2 because increasing prices will not lead to the change that some are thinking will change and you probably won't get a better valued product at a higher cost
     
  35. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    I see the new CSX scenario pack for TS2021 is priced at £6.99 for 10 scenarios (so I guess ~$9.99?). And it requires additional content that probably adds up to around £100. I'm sure it's a very good pack, but it shows the sort of money people are expected to (and are) paying.
     
  36. 01438820193

    01438820193 New Member

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  37. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    If we go by the current sale prices, the costs are as follows....
    Hanover Subdivision: $27.99 USD
    Clinchfield: $29.99
    Miami: $15.99
    GP40-2 Pack: $7.99
    Sd80MAC: $5.99
    Miami F40PHL-2: $3.24
    Scenario Pack itself: $8.99

    So in total thats $100.18 Usd, but its assuming one doesn't already own the content that the pack needs, plus one could also get the Clinchfield route for $1 via the Humble Bundle offer currently being offered.
     
  38. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    This is similar to what Stujoy called a "secret pricing strategy". However, the target player for this pack is someone like me who already has the prerequisites because they are fairly old dlc (except for Hanover) and is a CSX/ American fan. Few, if any, players would spend $100+ just to get a scenario pack.
     
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  39. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Here is what we pay in Canada with the current sale prices
    Hanover Subdivision $31.84
    Clinchfield $16.99
    Miami $17.59
    GP40-2 Pack $9.11
    SD80MAC $6.59
    Miami F40PHL-2 $17.71
    Scenario Pack $10.34
    For a Total $110.17
     
  40. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I definitely agree with this, TSW 2 routes typically come with 1 brand new loco, routes that come with more than one are usually an existing unit that has been tweaked.

    There are a few examples of routes that are technically more expensive, even though they’re the same price.
     
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  41. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    By the time TSW was released we should already have top quality.
    Why pay more for what you should already have?
    you are completely crazy !!!!!
    For me it is already too expensive considering the quality of the product which I consider to be "unfinished" since a multitude of bugs still remain the day of the release of the DLC.

    When we get the quality that we should have for 3 years now then, maybe I'll pay more for a few more miles.

    while waiting DTG do what you are paid for and do good, even if it means postponing releases.
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That was not necessarily the case. GWE came with three new locos. So did Sand Patch. So did NTP. So also did MSB, although the 146 and 185 were variations of each other.
     
  43. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they have kept their DLC route prices at £24.99 for a decade, hats off to them, but my income has dropped 20% permanently, theirs hasn't.
    So how would I justify a hike of £5 per route? Not sure I would. And I am pretty sure there are a few of us train game hobbyists out there that are even worse off? Keep a wider audience or narrow it down even further? Not something I can answer.
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    A price hike can't be justified if not much will change quality wise
     
  45. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Price, value and worthiness are all very personal evaluations. I am surprised that the costs for DLC have remained relatively consistent over the near decade I have been involved in train simulations. Not only that but the quality has improved consistently as well. Would I pay more in the future? .... probably since it is my hobby, would I expect more in the DLC? ... probably as I have from the steady progression over the years. Would I voluntarily campaign to pay more? sorry, but my Scottish ancestors comes into play here... no.
     
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