My Thoughts About The New Dtg Class 60.

Having just read the post on their Facebook page today and after failing to find a topic on this official forum about this new add-on DLC that is coming to Train Simulator 2021. I would like to air my thoughts about this add-on as well as raise some serious questions to DTG for possible other features such as liveries and functions.

First of all. I want to fire away some questions to DTG about the orientation of the locomotive because in the screenshot preview. Its actually Cab Number 2 that is leading in the image. Will this be the leading cab when I add a driver icon in the scenario editor? Or will this be corrected in the final release?
The actual locomotive if Cab Number 1 is to leading should be as per my photo below.


The next burning question about this new Class 60 add-on is about the "setvars" and the codes that would be used to control the nameplates, number positions and the depot plaques that would be present on the BR versions of the Class 60. Will there be any option to alter the setvar codes to hide the nameplates for when reskins and alternative set ups are done? For example 60063 was originally named as "James Murray" when in BR and Transrail livery. But in its current DB Schenker livery. 60063 is not named and it has different fonts for the operating fleet numbers. Will there be options to add the font style variations to be a setvar as well. Here is an example "60063=L;DBC;F=2;N=0;P=0" that would be for the DB version and something like "60063=L;BR;F=1,N=1;P=1" that would include the nameplates and the applicable depot plaques as well.

My final question will be about the physics and the if this new Class 60 will have a full functioning cab and features like opening windows, photo-realistic cab and other features as well? As we are in 2021. I strongly feel that these should be as standard and I would rather wait a bit longer for this features and functions to come out rather than be rushed out and get a lot of negative reviews. Also being the very last UK built diesel locomotive. The Brush Traction Class 60 has its place in the history besides 60098 being the 1000th locomotive to be built at Loughborough.

 

I’m not sure what you mean about the number 1 or 2 end. No driver chooses which end leads, it depends on the orientation of the locomotive relative to its position on the network.

I’d be more concerned that 071 was a Coal Sector locomotive in the trainload era, the buffers are a little small, the textures look naff and the panels where the windscreen wipers pivot shouldn’t be light grey!

 

If it is Bossman Games then I suspect it will be very done.

 

The icon in the photo says otherwise.

 

Fair enough but the title thread implied that it is.

 

Folks from what I have been reading on the Facebook page which is how I got wind of this add-on. There is a lot of information that the Class 60 model was made by Bossman Games (BMG) but due to the issues beyond their control. DTG has inherited the locomotive model (AP must of passed on it) and are now releasing it under their own name.

As for the Cab Number 1 and 2 ends. There are panels inside the cab that have Cab No1 and Cab No2 inside and this is also confirmed in the Class 60 Book by Edward Gleed and it is a great book to get if you are into these locomotive like I am. It will be interesting to hear what DTG will say about the features that this new Class 60 has and unlike with the WCML South. I hope that DTG will put quality BEFORE quantity and will check, polish and put time into this pack rather than rush it and make a hash of a potentially promising project.

Don't get me wrong. I am no DTG fanboy and I will call them out on their faults like the WCML South that was rushed and next to no beta testing was done before release but I respect them for stepping up to the plate and putting the route right. Personally I would like DTG to shock everyone and release this new Class 60 pack as a high quality add-on that will have been tested properly and will superceed the older 2007/2008 ex-Rail Simulator one from Just Trains which is a dated model and has physics that are an insult to the real Class 60. Hopefully the DTG/BMG new Class 60 will be a far superior add-on that will give them credibility and a potentially nice new add-on that is amongst the first to come for 2021 in terms of modern UK diesel locomotives.

 

When you say "the Facebook page" which one?
A link would be helpful

Irrespective of which is cab 1 and cab 2 it does not stop you driving the loco from either end.
In the editor for the picture above they might just have placed the loco that way round for a photograph

 

If the worst thing about a product is the cab number then it can't be that bad.

I'm confused about the critique of the cab number - do these locomotives get turned around on turntables each time they change direction? If so then no point in a second cab.

I suspect as 749006 says, they put the cab without the driver in at the front for the purposes of a publicity photo.

 

Quite often there are things in one cab and not in another, minor variations or start up sequences that can only be done from one end of the loco. Doesn't change much when you're actually in motion because the driving controls are about the same, but the purists will know the difference

 

If I was a developer and the main thing people were complaining about was a tiny, trivial thing that 99% of people won't notice then I'd consider that a success.

Very strange to not just criticise a DLC before it is released but to criticise it for something ridiculously small....

 

What you've listed is AP's version of doing things. I imagine it'll be a similar system to the Class 86 or 56, ie something like 60054Def:
- 60054 is the loco number
- D refers to the trainload sector decal
- e refers to the depot plaque
- f refers to the nameplate

 

I believe what they're asking is whether DTG will follow AP and get into the minutiae of every variant of the engine etc or if they'll do their usual of "one size fits all (none)"

 

Don't forget JT have done a Class 60 that uses AP's sound pack...

Eric

 

I already own a tug, very rarely drive it. For myself, I see no value in getting a remake unless it was significantly better, maybe, perhaps?

 

You can add driver icon to any end you like.

 

Unless you’re able to do cold start variants, where there might be issues with moving from cab to cab (eg battery isolation switch might be in no 2 cab), it’s not likely to make much practical difference.

 

If you look closely at the screenshot on my first post, the driver is there in the cab number 2 end which makes me suspect that DTG have wrongly used cab 2 as the "front" of the train when the locomotive should have been flipped. Yes I will admit that I am a bit of a rivet counter but I have high standards. Blame my parents for that .

The JT Class 60 is okay bar the buggy handling and the dated cab with very limited functions but its showing its age as it was originally made for Rail Simulator from the days of Kuju. I hope this new version from DTG/BMG will be much better for handling if they take the time to do the tuning right and give us a more functional cab to match. If they rush this out and it gets a load of negative reviews then they only have themselves to blame.

 

Surely in real life the driver would sit in cab 2 if that was at the front? I'm really struggling to see what the issue is... The DLC hasn't even been released...

 

Are you sure? Because I have just done an experiment with the JT Class 60 and the driver "icon" just shows at the cab number 1 end and I am using the Class 60 as a light engine. Well I have enough experience to hit CTRL+= to change cabs manually as I have been playing train simulator since 2015. But I like to make scenarios for absolute beginners as well mate.

I will admit that I am a bit of a rivet counter and a big fan of these monsters for machines. Whilst I do the "jump in and drive" scenarios. I also like to do the more difficult types when it involves starting up the locomotive as the "first man/woman on the shift" type of scenarios which adds more engagement into the experience of what a real train does but within the limitations of the game .

 

Of course but what I am referring to here is the "icon" when using the scenario editor. Will it appear above cab number 2 or will it appear above cab number one like on the JT version? I assume you make scenarios for train simulator? If not then I won't expect you to understand the technical sides of this subject. But I also make scenarios as well as play the ones that come with the DLC. Hope that makes sense.

 

I think the main points about the number one cab come from the real world: radiator end, proximity to certain circuit breakers, and what not.

I’d suggest waiting to see what is produced. I’m sure it can be rectified quickly if an issue.

Has there been any previous cases of DTG losing track of their senses and foisting a wrong way round loco on the unsuspecting TS clientele?!

 

So exactly what I said then?

I've not known any DTG loco to work like that and frankly comparing them to someone else's (really old) product doesn't help the case.
Hopefully DTG will have modelled D and ND for both ends of the loco, but that's hopefully
Until we see it on stream we will only have conjecture

 

Yes, I was agreeing with you

 

Nope... assuming, because that would be sensible, and why would you not be able to do that... but if you cannot, then THAT is the real issue here, surely.. not which end on one particular model they decide is the default end. If you can't... that's just ridiculous and needs sorting.

 

The driver icon token in the editor will only ever appear above one end of the loco - typically the one wiht the driver modelled in it. This is the default cab the player will spawn in in scenarios and what not. The reason this is the case is because the game needs to know what the "front" of the loco is and what the "back" is, mainly for the purposes of coupling and TAB to pass signals. Other than that, it has literally no practical implications and of course there's nothing to stop you changing cabs (indeed I've seen scenarios where the first instruction is to change cabs, as you spawn facing the buffers).

 

Err No.
AP brought out a sound pack for the JT Class 60 - you can not bring out a sound pack until you have a loco.

 

I have a suspicion when this releases they'll withdraw the sound pack and replace it with an enhancement pack.

 

According to people on Facebook this is a DTG Production

There is Nothing on the BMG Facebook page and if it was a joint production you would see their logo on that picture.
You would not see a picture unless it was within a few weeks of release so to start saying "the loco should have all these features" is a bit late in the day.

 

I meant the fact that AP have a 60 sound pack that you can use with JT's 60...

 

I suspect it's just a publicity shot and they've just ensured that it's a driverless cab for the shot. I suggest people calm down and only cast judgement once it comes out...

 

Compared to Bossman Games' Class 50, the texturing, particle effects and headlight flares all look lower quality and more equivalent to DTG products. Either DTG has used the raw model from BMG and applied their own work on top or have built another model from the ground up. We shall see. Last we heard of the BMG one was about a year ago mentioning work was postponed due to the need for a reference trip cancelled due to covid. I might pass on this if it has no unique advantages over the JT one besides better texturing.

 

Personally I just want DTG to make this a good add-on and actually get some positive reviews for it on Steam upon post-release and not all negative ones because of poor planning and low quality sounds like the LNER HST has on Steam? I think its a good pack and the negative reviews are just being harsh on the product. Come to think of it, why should I really care if DTG get it right or mess it up? People will buy it and so will I! .

No-ones getting flustered over this and I know there is some trying to twist what I am saying on purpose but I am not biting the bait and I am just ignoring them.

Well there was talks on social media that BMG had abandoned the Class 60 and then DTG announce one about a year later? Maybe it could be a completely separate all new project from DTG and if its that case. Then bravo to DTG but if BMG still have their Class 60 project and it comes out later once convid is over then that's grand. But all in all, there is the potential for a Class 60 Enhancement Pack to come in the future as well which will just go into my collection.

All in all. I am going to buy it for three purposes. First is to compare it to the JT Class 60 for starters. The second will be to test the quality and the handling because the handling is atrocious on the JT Class 60 when hauling a heavy train and the tuning is poor. Third reason is to make better and more compatible Steam Workshop scenarios which I love to make and share my work with those that download my scenarios .

I will give my verdict that will be when the Class 60 is released as I am assuming that testing, scenario writing and polishing is in progress at the moment.

 

Just to add a rivet counter comment the OHL warning flashes are wrong for the Trainload livery...

Eric

 

The OHL warning are the post 1998 variants which are not correct for this Class 60 livery and DTG should know this.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71092681@N07/14718846145/
60015 on that photo and shows the correct white background with the red "Danger" text and flash.

 

It’s becoming a bit like one of those ‘spot the five differences’ games!

 

Just to add a rivet counter comment the OHL warning flashes are wrong for the Trainload livery...

Eric

 

So you would be happy to buy the pack and criticise it if DTG gets it wrong then? At least my topic here is trying to help DTG get it right first time before release so that their new add-on won't get slapped with loads of negative reviews on both Steam and YouTube which has sadly been the case with some of their recent add-ons!

Why do you think I opened this topic in the first place? I am trying to show some community spirit and at least help DTG improve their new range of add-ons and as far as I am aware. Apart from some posts on Facebook. It seems that the community is not that interested in giving feedback in a constructive way as me having knowledge and references for these locomotives. My topic should help them make the product better BEFORE release and if that means highlighting errors and giving feedback on their preview screenshot that they posted to Facebook and my feedback helps DTG to make a better product then so be it.

Also this is payware. Had the train pack been freeware with these errors I have pointed out to DTG on this topic. I wouldn't have been so critical and constructive in my feedback and I would have kept quiet as I do support community freeware as well as expect high quality payware. But I am and many others here are going to be paying money for this add-on so why shouldn't we demand better quality for our hard earned cash? Not only that, if DTG improve their new add-ons before release to Steam. That will benefit their reputation in a positive light surely?

 

I suspect you're not the first person to attempt this tactic but unfortunately I am of the opinion that DTG will do what they want to do whether it's wrong or not, they will release what they want to & how they want to release it...

Just my penny's worth...

Eric

 

Much of the community has such knowledge and interest but has / have tried & failed in the past to make such differences...

As I said in my previous post, DTG seem to do what they want to do whether it's right or wrong...

Sorry to be a pessimist, I'm just stating real world facts...

Eric

 

Well if they are not willing to listen and want to do the British Leyland thing of ignoring customers then maybe if they mess up on this Class 60 add-on. Perhaps then the negative reviews will be warranted which could be completely avoidable .

 

Note the "Electrical Warning" triangle on the MW socket access door in the DTG piccy... It's not present on the "real" photo...

3 more left to find!!! LOL...

Eric

 

The ladder rungs are wrong too, in the pic the rungs are round, on the DTG recreation they're square

But who's being picky

 

Nice idea but too late in the process.
By the time DTG do the publicity photos it is not far off release and would be too late to start making changes.
I suspect AP will so an EP pack which will give more liveries and the variations you were talking about in the first post.
Expecting DTG to make a model which has all the advanced features of an AP Pack is unrealistic IMHO

 

They're square in real life.

 

Ah, it;s the grime that made them look rounded in the picture above

 

That's a point. I do wonder if anyone at DTG has even bothered to read any of this topic or at least took some notes as a minimum. I wouldn't be surprised to see an AP Enhancement Pack for this Class 60 in the future if this add-on becomes a flop. But in reality its all down to the company's attitude towards its customers at the end of the day. AP are like Mitsubishi, they listen to their customers and they do improve on their products to give the end user a better product that actually makes the train feel and handle more realistically.

DTG on the other hand are more like how British Leyland used to be. They seem to have this "We know what you need" attitude and that's why the WCML was a rushed mess at first release and it had to patched a few times to fix things that should have been caught in the beta testing and quality control. This was completely avoidable and perhaps if they held the map back by one week. They could have had enough time and fixed these issues pre-release.

 

They haven't fixed Sherman Hill in eight years. Ever recently, I pointed out problems that still need fixing, easy fixes in many cases that are scenario-based and not route based, but they don't touch them. This is after they put the route in Battle for Sherman Hill. Don't expect your comments to get anywhere.

I am still looking for ways to get them to care, but so far no good.

 

I think you might be right there buddy. The lack of a response from the DTG staff on these issues perhaps is a strong indicator that they couldn't give two hoots about their customers. I will buy their Class 60 though just to compare it to the JT version and if its a hash. They can expect a negative review if they have done nothing more than slung a load of tosh together and claim its high quality.

I will be looking forward to seeing the preview in their stream though. Oh and I will have some money put aside for when AP does a Class 60 Enhancement Pack. Why do DTG think its okay to keep ignoring their customers? More over, why do people let them? I lack a brain to mouth filter and that might be why I am disliked by some people in general but I speak my mind and I tell it the way it is. I have never sugar-coated anything.

If the BMG Class 60 does go ahead. I will buy that version because BMG usually sells their add-ons mainly through Armstrong Powerhouse and sometimes via DTG as well. It will be very likely that the BMG Class 60 will be sold via AP though. But if BMG worked with AP and getting sounds is an issue because of lockdowns. Then perhaps the BMG Class 60 could use the AP Class 60 sounds that would be included in the pack.

 

Have you only just realised??? It's been going on for years...

Eric

 

Nah, t was just hoping to have faith. Many companies now take the customers money for granted. Its companies like DTG, British Leyland and most Global companies only get the message when they lose profits. Its companies like SCS for Euro Truck Simulator 2 etc that actually care about their customers. Times are changing though and people are changing their attitude of being taken for a ride/advantaged of and are using alternative companies that will listen to them!

If I knew how to 3D model, script and have high quality textures etc and the contacts at my disposal. I would make alternative freeware high quality trains to the standard of BMG to drive the message home to these corporates that money isn't everything. But I cannot do it because I am not rich mate . It will backfire badly on these greedy arrogant companies in due course. Trust me. Times are changing and not everyone is a mindless sheep "cough" consumer.