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Nec Needs To Be Revisited...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Typhomat, Nov 13, 2019.

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What does NEC need?

Poll closed Dec 13, 2019.
  1. Nothing, it's perfectly fine

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Improvements and bug fixing

    15 vote(s)
    30.0%
  3. Route extension

    8 vote(s)
    16.0%
  4. Improvements, bug fixing, and a route extension

    27 vote(s)
    54.0%
  1. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    As this platform grows and becomes more developed, the one route that I think needs significant improvement and revisiting is the NEC. The area simulated represents one of the most complex portions of the entire NEC, but it's bug-filled signalling, lack of detail in NY Penn compared to LIRR, and limited services really highlight the need for this route to be revisiting.

    Not only are fixes needed, extensions would greatly benefit this limited route. Although route merging has not been shown possible by DTG yet, it has been discussed like many things as a hope for the future. NEC is a route that can greatly benefit from this.

    I hope that improvements can come for a route that has so much capability, but lacks in many areas. I'm curious what others might think about this.
     
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  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I’m part of a group who will be building the NEC route when the editor is released.
     
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  3. hyperlord

    hyperlord Active Member

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    My least-played route, it's so horrible when you try to learn signaling and security systems and in the end you find out later it's a bug. I was so confused most of the time, that I built up a kind of aversion already...
     
  4. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Although a complete NEC route would be great, I have been aware of this project, it's dependent on the release of the editor which still is still TBD, and although hopefully it will come, TSW is approaching 3 years old as a platform.
     
  5. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    I really don't think they're gonna come out with a full blown editor. They probably don't want people creating their own custom routes and scenarios to put on Workshop for free, so that way if people want new scenarios or routes, they have to buy a route or a scenario pack. That's how everything is in this world. It all comes down to money.
     
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  6. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Right now I just want the signalling fixes/safety systems to work correctly
     
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  7. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's great and all, ( and yes, I do support your group) but what about console? The editor still isn't confirmed nor denied for consoles, and they seem to be a growing group in the TSW community. Also, does anyone know about the raildriver? I'm hoping one comes for consoles as well.
     
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Why would they let you do it for TS1 then?

    They would more likely make more money if there was an editor as people would more likely buy more content to utilise the workshop etc!

    They have said numerous times they are working on a editor.
     
  9. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Either they don't want an editor or they aren't able to make one. Not sure which one of these is more likely, or which one would be worse news for the player base. Just see how each new DLC requires a compatibility update beforehand. That would probably be the case for any 3rd party DLC as well. UE4 for isn't exactly famous for easily implementable mod support after all...
     
  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Or they are making one and it isn't ready yet? Or am I imagining watching a preview of the scenario editor sometime back?!
     
  11. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    The way I look at it an editor would most likely increase sells and customer satisfaction.
     
  12. Mr T

    Mr T Active Member

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    I suspect they are making a more user friendly version, perhaps separating scenario and route editing? I don't think they want to provide users the full functionality of their editor as shown in the preview video. I'm sure there are other considerations as well but that's my assumption about what's going on with it. Of course, I really have no idea :)
     
  13. zane88

    zane88 Active Member

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    As someone who lives in Philadelphia PA, being able to travel from Washington DC to Delaware and thru Philly to all the way to Boston would be a dream come true .

    The NEC is practically my back yard. :cool:
     
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  14. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    I live just south of Philly near the NEC, but unfortunately the Philly-DC section will probably never happen. Not that DTG is unwilling to make it, but because both Septa and Marc have turned them down for licensing, and that's a crucial part of the project. I mean, they could do unbranded stuff, but then people get pissed because it's not prototypical (even though they could probably get reskins). They did the same thing with the Metrolink and Coaster trains for the Pacific Surfliner route, and the Metra trains for the BNSF Racetrack route.
     
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  15. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Theoretically that is possible of course, but after a full year of precisely zero updates on the issue, I see the editor as vaporware. Not officially cancelled, but I don't expect it to ever release either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Because DTG didn't create Train Simulator. It was developed as Rail Simulator by Kuju in 2007 and was released with the various developer tools and documentation from the start. Some of those involved in the development of Rail Simulator started a new company, Rail Simulator Developments Ltd, to continue development. RSDL are still the company who own it, however they now trade as DTG.

    At some point along the way people got involved who don't understand the simming market at all. They fail to understand that 3rd party development in the community is a critical part of the game's development as a whole. The development flows both ways. I sold the rights to DLC I made 10 years to RSDL and they intergrated elements of it into future DLCs of their own, as well as making it available to other 3rd party developers.

    Train Simulation is already niche and within it are futher niches of untapped potential. DTG are probably never going to develop a South African route for TSW, because it's probably 10 times more profitable to develop a German route. So the part of the community who love South African Railways will remain an untapped market. However if you give the community the tools do so, a 3rd party developer can then develop a South African route for TSW and grow that market. Many third party routes for TS2020 also require other DLC, so this will increase sales of that DLC as well as presenting an opportunity for DTG to publish (and take a cut) of the third party route. Additionally, when new 3rd party innovations come along (improved physics scripting for example), DTG can purchase the rights to it for much less than it would cost to develop in house; They can then intergrate it into the base game, improve their products and increase sales.

    We know from Flight Sim World that DTG want to tightly control the market and limit 3rd party development. With competitors who understood the market better, FSW ended up being cancelled and it cost DTG heavily. In fact, if it wasn't for tax relief granted by the UK government it's quite possible DTG would have had to scrap TSW too.

    I've heard rumors that Microsoft are planning to enter the Train Sim fray again with a new simulator which, in a similar manner to Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020, will use Bing maps/Microsoft Azure photogrammetery to generate photorealistic terrain and buildings, with 'hand modelling' reserved for the track, signals and scenery immediately adjacent to the track. You'll be getting photorealistic and accurate scenery as far away as your computer's hardware can render. If it all pans out, it will absolutely blow TSW away. Assuming Microsoft provide the tools for 3rd party development and provide an effective means of online distribution, they'll have nailed it.

    DTG need to seriously up their game.
     
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  17. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Below are screenshots from the new Microsoft Flight Sim. Imagine this level of detail for the distant scenery and weather in TSW:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    IF/WHEN Microsoft release a Train Simulator and if its anything as good as how Flight Sim looks, I don’t think TSW will have a leg to stand on. Especially if tools/editor still isn’t out by then.
     
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  19. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    I hope an editor is released at some point, but its been continuously delayed. My original topic though was also about improvements to NEC and what should be done, not where is the editor though. With an editor, my understanding was existing DTG developed routed will not be modifiable. So even with an editor, fixes for the current content would essentially have to be in the form of a rebuild.

    Also I'm curious where the idea MS was going to try a train sim again comes from, the Azure addition for MFS2020 is impressive but limited in detail. You can get away with it in a flight sim but I dont know if it's possible for a train sim.

    Again, I'd like to see improvements to this route. I can't see it happening soon but I think it's an important discussion because it has so much potential.
     
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  20. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    The "automatic" scenery would be for distant scenery, things near the tracks would still be hand-crafted. Also, it would inherently bring accurate elevation models, so distant hills on the horizon would look very real by nature. And FS2020's weather... yeah, that would be nice for a train sim as well. :) Minus all the calculations on wind etc that don't affect a train of course.
     
  21. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    The core of FS2020 is still FSX from my understanding. To develop a train simulator off that platform has its challenges alone given the core was never intended to be used that way.

    I think the thought MS is going to develop another TS based off FS2020 is a little far fetched. There is a lot of modeling that would need to be done for actual assets like stations and trains, exactly like TSW. In fact it has all the same issues TSW would have when it comes to content variety upon launch.
     
  22. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but then, so has FS20. It also has assets supposed to be seen from up close - airports, the odd famous landmark people will circle around in their Cessna... and yeah, that Cessna (and any other aircraft) had to be modeled and everything as well. The main difference between TSW and shall we call it, "MSTS 2022", will be that one is made by a bunch of folks in Chatham and the other by the not so microscopic Microsoft.
     
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  23. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Addendum:

    The original MSTS - from which TS2020 is a distant decendant - was released in 2001, and still today has its small playerbase, and even freeware addons released regularly. I myself published my last scenery object for that not two years ago if remember correctly; would have to look it up.

    That's what a community willing (and more importantly, able) to keep a game alive will do to its livespan. Should that hypothetical MSTS2022 become a reality, it might finally kill it off after almost a quarter of a century.

    That being said, TSW, being the first all new trainsim in some 15 years, COULD have become DTG's golden egg laying chicken, and it still could become that perhaps. It would need a farmer who knows how to keep and feed chickens for them to lay golden eggs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would be surprised if Microsoft re-entered the trainsim market. It is a lot smaller the the flight sim market. Microsoft abandoned train simulator after it's first year and abandoned MSTS2 during it's development and with three other titles already in the market not including the smaller niche ones it is already looking a little crowded, still never say never.

    I didn't realise TS2020 was descended from MSTS apart from the fact both were developed by Kuju I suppose.
     
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  25. zane88

    zane88 Active Member

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    :(That is unfortunate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole NEC was done for train simulator some time ago.
    Is the lack of cooperation by SEPTA really holding this up? And what about NJ transit? I wonder how they factor in regarding SEPTA.
     
  26. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    To go back to the core topic, seeing the route extended southward I think adds the most value, especially with the Metroliner. An extension to Trenton is 43 miles from Newark International Airport (and track extends south so it would be less if it's extended). Including the Morrisville yard also allows for NJ Transit content to be integrated, with a full route from Sunnyside to Morrisville allowing for ops. It also opens the option to bring in the Acela and run at speeds, especially after the constant catenary updates between Trenton and New Brunswick.

    With an extension, this route can become one of the more diverse routes in passenger operations, with slow, all-stops, express, and regional services that use a variety of locomotive power.
     
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  27. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    NEC: Philadelphia to New York Penn was released (back when the SEPTA regional rail lines called the R#, the original route had that I believe), and was the original source of many of the city buildings that appear in other TS2020 routes (Comcast must have decided to have the Comcast Center rebuilt in virtual TS cities across the country!). But an actual full recreation was never completed by the community the last I have checked.

    I don't think SEPTA is the primary reason anything Philadelphia based has been not been made since for either TS20xx or TSW, but getting approval from different operators is a challenge. With NJT and MetroNorth, it might help give an example to SEPTA, but hard to say. I can't see any SEPTA lines coming to TSW though, the route extension I've mentioned in my previous post seems more practical to me.
     
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  28. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    Well, the editor ties into this, because there hasn't been a route extension at all in TSW, even though there was an opportunity to do so for RRO with RSN. We know the technology is there since a user has modded the two routes together, but whether it's a financial decision, or whatever, DTG has not done it, so I don't think we will see one in the near future. Plus, NEC is already dated compared to the newer routes, and it would look very strange to extend NEC without re-doing scenery, which would require additional time, and it just doesn't make financial sense to do so.
     
  29. mrchuck

    mrchuck Active Member

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    I hope a route extension comes soon.
     
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  30. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Active Member

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    I too have a personal reason to want the NEC improved and or extended. I'm about 30 miles west of Philly, right on the Keystone Corridor part of the Amtrak Philly-Pittsburgh mainline, but have ridden on the NEC many times.

    I remember being quite excited about Philly-DC being one of the original routes in MSTS, and Philly to NYP was released for TS20XX, so I was really hoping that TSW could bring the groundwork laid by those older routes to life. And it comes so close, really- it's just those persistent signalling bugs and the short length that really hold it back- why do a high speed route where you can never really get to up to speed?. I agree with others that an extension to Trenton would be perfect and wouldn't run into SEPTA licensing issues as you could just ignore the SEPTA Trenton line since it's all to the south. Of course I'd love to see it run all the way to Philly, but I think that's unrealistic at this point. Extending to Trenton lets you get real NJT services in there, which are crucial to adding realism to the route- you can't ride the NEC for 5 minutes without an NJT train passing by- it's just absurd that they're not included. Since there has been NJT content on TS20XX, presumably the licensing won't be impossible.
     
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  31. zane88

    zane88 Active Member

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    Ahh yes, Philly , Pittsburg , NY, DC, Boston, we trully do have the best sports rivalries in the country, period, end of story.
    . And yes, i will spare you all a "go EAGLES " chant.:)

    ...today anyway:cool:
     
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  32. mrchuck

    mrchuck Active Member

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    I would like to see New Jersey transit maybe Penn Station to Trenton for the future Dlc maybe for TSW 2020.
     
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  33. coinman1972

    coinman1972 New Member

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    I would absolutely be willing to purchase the whole route in its entirety!!! (Let's keep it under $100, ok Dovetail?)
     
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  34. Juxen

    Juxen Well-Known Member

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    Not to reignite anything or hijack the thread, but where did you hear that? I've been looking for that online, and can't find any word on that. I'd be totally stoked if MSTS: Resurrected was in development.
     
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  35. Callum B.

    Callum B. Member

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    This is the second time that I've seen this claim but I have yet to find any evidence of this actually being true. Do you know where I might be able to find that?
     
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  36. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    I would have to disagree with you on that last part. Because, if the Portsmouth Direct Line with Waterloo is any indication, people will pay for a route done right, and given upgrades on the rollingstock that has already been previously offered, as well as the obvious extended scenery and territory..
     
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  37. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. The new Portsmouth Direct is pretty much the gold standard of route DLC. Heck it even came with three different trains, two of which had to be paid extra for in the old version. I still don't know to this day what had gone into DTG when they released that.
     
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  38. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because realistically, anyone expecting a redo of a whole route, has to know it is will require a lot of time and effort that needs to be fairly compensated for. So a totally redone NEC (mainly on TS1) would surely be welcomed by many who have the NEC in the current state it is. The NJCL was an indication of how beautiful it would look by the current TS standard of route building. Plus, the NJT equipment would benefit greatly from a total redo of the original NEC. In-cab signaling, improved gradients, better scenery, stations, even a Princeton Branch, Or if they wanted to, add the Atlantic, Or Keystone Corridor, which we know they more than likely won't do, but one can dream, at least.
     

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