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New Head Sway Feature Coming!

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nne4229, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Hi Guys, answering a few of the questions that have popped up here:

    The whole point of the motion sway is to give you a more accurate sense of how well you're accelerating and braking - as a passenger on an AI train, those trains should be accelerating and braking within the limits and so you might not even notice if it was or wasn't working except under very specific circumstances like traversing a crossover at speed. EDIT: Yes, it works as a passenger.

    Animated gangways are already a thing, just probably not on AI trains.

    No plans for an AI Physics toggle that I'm aware of.

    I would hazard a guess that you'd need the source code to even begin to figure out how you could work around it.

    No plans for this but love the suggestion, we'll add that to the list of things to look at.

    Not that I'm aware of. See my response to nne4229 above.

    Confirmed.

    Best, Steve
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  2. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    From what I've seen, AI trains accelerate at levels I'd not even capable of, no matter how hard I try to do a drag race style departure :D
     
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  3. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    I'm not sure that means you shouldn't see the effect. It also shows up bumpy track which the AI trains should still experience.
     
  4. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Agreed doc_woods, but as I mentioned, I've not seen it whilst playing but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Best, Steve
     
  5. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Guest

    does the update drop today on PC Steve? with the Route tomorrow?
     
  6. 7orenz

    7orenz Active Member

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    Before the update I was too curious and exited for this new feature. Now, To be honest, I only tested the head-sway on GWE Class 66 (the othere routes are still in download) and in my opinion, at the moment, the game is more realistic with head-sway set to off :(

    I hope DTG working to improve the realism of this new feature. I only can suggest to reduce drastically the "oscillation" gauge from left to right (if for example now we have a gap from <-5 left to 5-> right i suggest to reduce the max gap from <-2 left to 2-> right or maybe also <-1 L to 1-> R depending on loco and route, where GWE is a very modern route) and make the vibration more rapid/fluid at the increasing of train speed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  7. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Hi NAYDOG,

    I believe it will go out at the same time as the release on PC. The console release pipeline works a bit differently because the update needs to be out before the primary release due to how those organisations manage their library.

    Best, Steve
     
  8. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    AI trains don't currently simulate the suspension and track roughness for performance reasons, only the train that you're in direct control of does that. This means that when sat in a passenger seat you will not see it rocking, and therefore won't see the gangway move as that's a side effect of the two bodies moving independently.

    However - it DOES still support the headsway, so if you're sat in a passenger seat and the train accelerates out of the station you will feel it as your camera moves gently backwards, the same around corners and when the train comes to a stop. So there's movement, just not as much as when you're in control of the train.

    Incidentally when it comes to the amount of side to side movement, I was fortunate to get a cab ride on a Class 395 Javelin a few months back and even on this modern train on the most modern high speed line in the UK, the side to side movement was quite surprising and formed most of the movement that I felt when running on the straighter sections. I think cabs are bumpier in reality than people perhaps expect.
     
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  9. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Thanks Matt,

    Knew you'd keep us all right! :)

    Best, Steve
     
  10. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    Is the sinusoidal sway on straight track accounted for in the head sway? This is the gentle left to right motion which rocks people to sleep on a train. It occurs because the wheels on a train are slightly conical in shape, so as the train moves to the left the larger radius portion of the left wheel is in contact with the rail head and the smaller radius portion of the right wheel is in contact with the other rail head. This causes the wheelset to 'steer' to the right until the situation is reversed and the wheelset steers back to the left. The result is a sinusoidal motion left, right, left, right, zzzzzzz...
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  11. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    If it is we'll definitely have to run with the driver vigilance systems active!
     
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  12. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    That's been available for a long time, including pictorial instructions: click the mouse wheel.
     
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  13. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    It appears the update for PC is today as mine is current downloading for TSW2020 looking forward to the newer feature.
     
  14. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info! However, it shouldn't make any difference whether you're riding the train as a passenger or as the driver performance-wise, should it? Still only one train at a time, or am I missing something?
     
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  15. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, whether I’m driving or riding as a passenger, it would only be one train actually using the simulation. That is a great question!
     
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  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    If I had to guess, I would say DTG coded it in the beginning so that the player control and the full physics are sufficiently interlinked that it makes it difficult to have one without the other. This would mean that you would need an AI driver coded to actually manipulate the controls as the player would, but that's difficult as it would have to take into account a lot of variables (gradient, train weight, loco performance etc) to ensure the correct control inputs were made at the right time. This would mean the AI driver calculations would be layered on top of the physics calculations, overall increasing the calculations required.
     
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  17. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    You gave a great answer to a great question, We are surrounded by smart people!
     
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  18. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Sooo.. I just took a test drive up the peninsula on a stopper to see if head sway really works as I thought it would. Yep. It does.

    One test I didn't mean to run though (but ran it anyway) was this:
    20191211192014_1.jpg
    *BOOM*

    "Oh well... cab sway REALLY works."
     
  19. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Glad the option's there!

    It's quite a nice feature at low speeds, giving a little jiggle over points, but I'm just running the previously bugged DB 86109 service on MSB and at high speed, the train seems to be bucking and bouncing around all over the place. The forward/backward movement with accelerations feels out of sync with the speed a bit, and also quite exaggerated.

    I know Matt said the real life sway is quite surprising, but feeling it and having to look at it from a static seat are quite different experiences. Like the motion sickness effect you get in VR when your car corners at speed but you don't feel any of what your brain is telling you to expect.

    Could do with a strength slider for the effect to limit how far your head can move relative to its rest position. Until that comes, I'm sorry to say, I've just turned it off. Might just use it on WSR where the speeds are low.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  20. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I agree. When you're in vehicle in reality the muscules in your body provide quite a lot of resistance to movement which dampens the effect; The way DTG have implemented it feels a little too much like you're a rag doll.

    I think it needs two controls, one which limits the maximum deviation from 0,0, and one which reduces/increases the overall effect (i.e. movement calculation output/0.9 for 90%, /0.8 for 80% etc.)
     
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  21. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Personally I don’t think it represents what your head does, as there is no ‘smooth’ swaying animations of the camera.

    Instead we’ve got a fairly rapid, short and frequent ‘twitching’ animation. Almost as if when a camera sometimes glitches in games. Of course this isn’t what your head does in real life.

    In my option there needs to be a slower swaying animation, which rocks and moves the camera in all directions. Not too slow of course, but certainly slower and more freely moving to what we have now.

    It seems quite limited on both the horizontal and vertical axis, almost wanting to snap to the default centre position too quickly.
     
  22. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does feel a bit shaky at times. Maybe solution would be to measure the inertia over each period of x milliseconds and calculate some form of average from that to get a more fluid motion, more akin to TS20. Still happy we have any cab sway at all though.
     
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  23. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Agreed that the Head Sway is quite twitchy. I did a stock move in the 101 in NTP and at low speed this twitchy behaviour is very noticeable. Because its twitchy its not achieving the desired effect. If its smoothed out a bit then I think it should work as intended. Allied to this is that the outside world remains fixed and the cab is moving around the players head, not the other way around which would be more appropriate. Because of this the overall effect is somewhat lost which has an effect on the achieved immersion.
    Incremental gains though ;) Its a good step forward.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2019
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  24. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Im not entirely sure its down to the cab sway itself. In tsxx you have a more reclined position, being able to see more of the cab. In TSW especially driving multiple units, the driving position is almost pushed up against the windscreen.
    Dsd permitting try getting up and crouching behind the drivers seat. You get a more relaxed view, but still with the benefits and realism if the cab bouncing. Obviously this isnt a workaround or a way to drive but demonstrates the kind of view we need.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  25. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Hi Rob, yeah i remember in TS20xx i used to adjust the fov in the files somewhere. Im not sure if thats possible in tsw and i use gwe with bells and whistles quite a bit. Thanks for the suggestion though. Ill give it a go of course :)
     
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  26. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    We need a field of view slider of sorts in the options menu.
    70176436-C400-4957-9203-6926872AC0D9.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  27. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, I like the Cab Sway. Whether it's realistic or not - I can't say. But at least for me it feels af if I am driving a train which actually has a weight. I also like the dancing around at high speeds (haven't tested a lot of trains yet, though), which gives me a feeling of the track not being completely and perfectly flat.
     
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  28. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, a FOV slider could definitely help matters. Driving the 185.2 last night with the view mostly filled by the windscreen, it was hard to distinguish whether the movement was the camera moving relative to the train or the train moving relative to the tracks (and about to derail spectacularly). Turning to look at the cab, you could tell the movement was relative to the seats etc, which felt better (but still felt quite exaggerated) so being able to get more cab into your view would be beneficial.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  29. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Active Member

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    A very impressive train simulator was significantly improved yesterday. My experience with cab sway so far is that it is just subtle enough and it really adds to the driving experience.

    Thanks DTG for this addition, the Ruhr-Sieg Nord journey mode, and the various bus fixes.
     
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  30. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I am also enjoying the addition of cab sway, it really adds a better driving experience to the game.
     
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  31. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It’s fantastic, a game changer in my eyes.

    Although some people are inevitably moaning that in their opinion it’s not exactly what they individually expected, I’m very happy with it. It’s better than the TS1 version and nobody ever seemed to moan about that.

    Credit where it’s due, well done DTG.
     
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  32. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    The recent class 31 and now the new cab sway feature has reignited my interest in TSW, the class 101 is certainly much more realistic and has the shake, rattle and roll that I remember. The class 31 is now my personal favourite.
     
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  33. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    And if you want a change of pace, take the 31 out for a stroll on the East Coastway :)
     
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  34. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    A pacer would certainly benefit from this feature..
     
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  35. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    We will, when Steam allow us to! ;-)
     
  36. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Im really enjoying the cab sway and will be buying ecw tonight, but what do you think TrainSim-Matt field of view and zoom?
     
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  37. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    A change of pace!?
    I hope that's a coded hint for a pacer!
     
  38. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Jeez I have to be soooo careful what I say :)

    I'd love a pacer, you know me. It'd need to be bright pink tho. Hope that's ok. :)
     
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  39. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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    :D I'd take a pacer in any colour you like.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  40. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Loving the new route and update so far!! Camera sway seems to be implemented well, and really adds immersion. ECW route has VERY detailed scenery (love the big viaduct leading into Brighton) and not sure if this is new to this route, but my old eyes can actually read the trackside speed limit signs on this one. Class 377 is really fun to drive, still getting used to how quickly it starts and stops lol.

    One question- is the Class 66 updated/changed at all compared to the one on GWE? I only drove it for a little bit last night, but it felt/sounded slightly different- tbf I haven't driven on GWE in quite a while, so could be my imagination.
     
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  41. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    You mean a British Rail or AMC Pacer? ;)
     
  42. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Sound occlusion has been tweaked in the winter update. The east coast 66 in addition also has an updated em2000 and the ability to shut down or change braking speed (passenger/goods). Aswell as other improvements.
     
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  43. Manclion

    Manclion Well-Known Member

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  44. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Active Member

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    Both look great in pink. In my experience, the AMC one has far more cab sway!
     
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  45. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Had a look at the new head sway feature myself, in agreement with others that it needs an option able to adjust, for me it's too reminiscent of the old 'Jellycab' running out of memory we used to get in the old Railworks or was it TSxxxx or was it even MSTS, my memory (excuse the pun) is terrible.
     
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  46. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    MSTS had no cabsway, so that was definitely not it ;)
     
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  47. Vlado64

    Vlado64 New Member

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    It's my video and loco :) You need to know that I put very bad rails there. That's why it sways a lot at the end.
     
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  48. dunkrez

    dunkrez Active Member

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    Awesome work with cab sway Matt, hats off to you! Also, I'd settle for a bright pink pacer :)

    This update has got me back into TSW, something I didn't think would happen, so well done!
     
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  49. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I was actually thinking this might happen! Thanks for creating it and I figured it was bad rails for testing purposes!
     
  50. Vlado64

    Vlado64 New Member

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    Hopefully it will quickly reach the TS2020 level. For now, in some moments, it looks more like stop-motion animation and as if the locomotive doesn't have much mass - more like as model railway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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