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PC No Flag For Tees Valley Line

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by DruidsNectar, Feb 16, 2021.

  1. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    Okay, I know this is a really minor thing, but on the route chooser there is no Union Jack flag next to Tees Valley Line.

    upload_2021-2-16_21-25-5.png
     
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  2. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    Flags will get added to the remaining routes when they are being worked on (bugfixes, sound issues, livery designer, enhancements etc).
     
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  3. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    I'm not sure if you're joking, or making wild assumptions, or something else. If any of what you have said is true (I'm not saying it's not), then surely it would not be one single route missing a flag. Also, why would this one route be subject to some sort of exception?
     
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  4. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    <pedantry>It's only a Union Jack if it's on a ship- otherwise it's a Union Flag.</pedantry>
     
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  5. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    L89 is 100% correct. In the beginning, when DTG started adding the Preserved Collection routes to TSW2, they didn't have flags. Thankfully, the community was able to convince them otherwise. So when they updated a Preserved Collection route, they added the flag. Unfortunately, since than, TVL has not received an update and DTG stated that even adding the flag would be like a giant patch (gigabytes) since they would have to re-upload the entire .pak file for the route. So, when the route actually gets updated with fixes or whatever, they will implement the flag.
     
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  6. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    Um.. Yep, the Union Jack is a naval flag but the fact that it is used everywhere where there is no naval connections, and in this particular case where it's been used for every UK route except one... It sort of makes it pretty much a bug, a flaw, or simply incompetence.

    Ha, really? A single image requires a whole route update to update that one single image? Well fair enough, it's not much of an effort and why exclude one route out of them all, it suggests incompetence again. I doubt all the other routes had updates at the time the flags were added, and even if they did, it's a bit of a stretch to ignore the TVL because they couldn't find anything to update. Looking at it another way, today I had a 1.1GB update, and the patch list was pretty much all SEHS, I don't own SEHS, yet I still had to endure the update, so why should a tiny image on a preserved route be any different?
     
  7. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    The TSW2 core game got updates too but I don't think they list every single thing on the patch notes. TSW2 core I think is able to be updated without redownloading the whole game again?

    I do believe most preserved routes did get updates to fix some issues and that's when the flags slipped in. On my game I do not see a flag for Rapid Transit and TVL...those routes have not been updated in a while. Rapid Transit is in the next batch of routes being worked on then I guess TVL will follow.
     
  8. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Doubt whatever you want. If you were following the updates closely you would have noticed that flags have indeed appeared after each of these routes had an update.
    You show that you don't even know anything about the way DTG work but shout incompetence while you seem to have no competence whatsoever to be saying these things.
    Forcing people through several of GB for an update just because you want a union "jack" to appear on the menu is unreasonable. Let them add it when they update TVL the next time around and everything will be fine. There are game breaking issues in this game and you are ranting about a png missing, come off it.
     
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  9. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Flags will come to routes when they get an update . For example , rapid transit and Hauptstrecke Rhein Ruhr haven’t had a tsw2 update yet so they have not been able to get a flag . When they hat an update they will have a flag but until then - no flag
     
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  10. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    Not to out pedantry your pedantry, but if there's one thing that tickles my pickle more than a train, it's a bit of naval history.
    Your understanding of the Union Jack name and usage is a common misinterpretation that only seems to have become popular within the past couple of decades. As popular as the idea of the Union Jack being the proper name for the flag in naval usage only is though, it is incorrect.

    People often associate the name Union Jack being the name for the flag when flown from the Jackstaff at the bow of a ship, but the name Union Jack itself predates even that tradition with the 'jack' being the size of the flag (in a similar manner to the Union Jack often seen on British Army vehicles being officially known as a 'war flag' with it being identical to the Union Flag in all but ratio), rather than the positioning of where it was flown, with the flag often flown from the mastheads or bowsprit before Jackstaffs were even a thing. As for it's official name when the flag was designed to include the St. George's cross and St. Andrew's saltire (St. Patrick's saltire not coming for some 200 years later) after the Union of England and Scotland Act, it was simply referred to as the British Flag, before officially becoming the Union Flag.

    It was around the 1620's that the name 'jack' began to be used for the flag in naval terms, with either the Jack Flag or King's Jack, taking its reference from the size of the jack flag flown. By the 1640's, the flag was being formally described as His Majesty's Jack and officially known as the Union Jack. By the 19th century, the Ensign replaced the jack as the official distinguishing naval flag, with the Union Jack being flown only when in harbour from the now commonly used Jackstaff.

    As for the official name of the flag as we know it today, by the early 1900's and with the Royal Navy being the boss of the high seas, the Admiralty proposed that with the name being so commonly used and the flag itself so well recognised across the globe, the Union Jack was to be used for the Union Flag wherever it was flown, whether at land or sea and by 1908 Parliament had approved the use of the Union Jack as the name for the national flag. Calling it the the Union Flag IS correct for when it is flown on land. But the name Union Jack, despite it's naval origins, is also entirely correct for the name of the flag whether flown on land or at sea.
     
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  11. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Adam's team will go thru the routes, they started with the ones that needed fixes the most, and will work their way to doing all the routes.
    Of the routes I own HRR and RT and the only two routes without flags.
     
  12. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Nerd chorus: We're not worthy!
     
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  13. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Active Member

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  14. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    He is not joking. It is said several times during the roadmap update streams.
     
  15. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    Yes, a single little file requires a whole route upgrade because the entire DLC is stored in a single .pak file. The route itself was not excluded, it simply didn't have any priority fixes. Yes, literally all the other Preserved Collection routes had updates, hence the flags were added. It doesn't matter if you don't own SEHS, although the fixes listed were for SEHS, changes were made to the core game files and so you had to download the update. You claim all these actions suggest incompetence, but the only actions that suggest incompetence, or at least ignorance, are yours, because you presume to make assumptions without educating yourself.
     
  16. GrayDawg

    GrayDawg Well-Known Member

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  17. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    You're entitled to your views, but you clearly show your disconnect with modern development technologies. As a consumer I should not have to "follow updates closely", in fact as a consumer I should be able to bumble along in a care free, incompetent attitude and at any point of the journey, be pointed to a single source of information and be able to get up to speed with the current development cycle. As it stands, to get any understanding if DTG's development cycle I have to follow several forum threads, look out for one or more news announcements, try to keep up with a roadmap plan that is undergoing some sort of redevelopment, and watch numerous YouTube videos, which quite frankly seem to have been put together by people with no comprehension of engaging content.

    So, if as a consumer I've missed something in all that disorganised content, feel free to call me incompetent. In fact do your worst, call me all the names under the sun, I don't really care. What I will say, is that any developer worth their salt will will have a "single source of truth". This will be clearly published for all to see, and updated regularly. There will be no question as to what is on the roadmap, what is in or out of scope, what is currently being worked on, what is acknowledged, what is parked, etc. In fact there are many industry standard tools a developer can use internally and publish externally for stakeholder and customers to consume, such as Jira, Trello, etc. Ultimately there will be no doubt to where to find this content either, it will be practically linked on every single page, because lets face it, users are idiots and couldn't find the door out of the toilet... Or are they?
    The fact that DTG don't publicly use such tools shows a level of incompetence, or if not incompetence complete disregard for their customers. Don't get me wrong, there are many worse developers than DTG, but DTG are not doing themselves any favours.

    As a point, I don't "want" (or rather insist on) the flag, and neither am I forcing everyone to endure a massive update to get the flag, I was merely pointing out an inconsistency in the menu structure that didn't seem to have been highlighted up until now. I then followed up on replies expressing my disbelief that such a small change would require a disproportional amount of effort.

    Now on to the point of a simple flag for a single route. There are several ways of looking at this:
    • the core program is responsible for incorporating and displaying DLC, therefore a simple task to update a single flag (essentially one image)
    • each DLC somehow has a hook into the core program, and with the appropriate hook cause the the core program to display the appropriate media, such as a flag - an acceptable approach if you can deploy individual components of the DLC when an update is required
    • if you envisage the need to update a small aspect of your code, you do not wrap the whole thing up into a single large file, forcing the requirement to redeploy the entire package every time an update is required - this is incredibly short-sighted, shows amateur development techniques, or simple incompetence - take your pick (don't try to use Unreal as the limitation, you could use many, many small pak files, thereby only deploying what is required).
    A forward thinking developer would have anticipated the requirement for bug updates, and therefore a need to somehow deploy that update. No developer expects to develop 100% bug free code, so at some point an update is going to have to be delivered, It's a bit short sighted if that requires a several gigabyte deployment.
    As pointed out by more helpful members of the community it seems that DTG opted for the "one huge package incorporates all" option, meaning that a very small update requires forcing all customers to endure several gigabytes of download. So all small or minor updates get ignored because it is not deemed an appropriate change to subject customers to for the benefit they will receive. Sadly this attitude will creep, and bigger problems will get ignored because no one will want to make the decision as to when benefit outweighs disruption, Anyone one with half an ounce of commercial development experience will see this problem, amateurs and fanbois will not.

    So, who is the one at fault here?
    • the consumer for pointing out inconsistencies in the game menu
    • the developer for not coding their application in such a way as to be able to deliver frequent and flexible updates
    • the forum members for not thinking out the box and considering all solutions
    There is no right or wrong answer - in fact all or no or all answers are acceptable, but as any logically minded person will realise, it all depends on your experience and ability to step back and think.
     
  18. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    tees valley isn't the only route without a flag i'm pretty sure i have few other routes without flags it doesn't really bother me all to much
     
  19. heardturkey

    heardturkey Active Member

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    Tees Valley. Where is it? Italy, Spain Germany, Taiwan. Ooooohhhhhh nooooooooooooo., my brain is hurting. I need to lie down.

    Later I need to find where Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr is. Sounds a bit Greekish to me so maybe Egypt. The pressure.;)
     
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  20. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Active Member

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  21. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The last time I saw this much trouble over a missing flag it was at a fundraising event buffet in 1992, when a small boy had taken some sandwiches that had the flags stuck in them and instead of replacing the flags in the next sandwiches down, took them to play with. This led the boy’s auntie, a lifelong vegetarian, to eat pâté containing meat, which she mistook for the veggie option. There were floods of tears from both the lady and her nephew, an official complaint to the buffet organisers, and a marked reduction in the amount raised for the scout hut roof fund. It is still talked about in parish meetings to this day.
     
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  22. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    Unfortunately an all too common occurrence that continues to raise the same old questions.

    1. What's wrong with labels? Flags in sandwiches are the work of doilie and lace tablecloth enthusiasts...and they're basically control freaks and fascists.
    B - Why in this day and age is it still legal for children under the age of 16 to attend buffet related fund raising events? They should either in school or putting a shift in down the pits and have absolutely no business interfering with the complex logistics of buffet sandwiches until they are old enough to be held accountable with charges of conspiring to interfere with a buffet layout as legally responsible adult.
    Thirdly, what manner of uncultured philistine puts pâté on a sandwich? Meat paste is perfectly acceptable on quartered, triangular sandwich rounds, but putting pâté on untoasted bread sounds suspiciously French in nature and should be punishable by three years at Her Majesty's pleasure on war rations.
    IV: What's up with Scouts and their hut roofs?? With the amount of roof repair fund raising they do, you'd have thought that someone would have had the good sense to come up with a Roof Repair badge by now.

    On a side note, I'd perhaps suggest that the boy's auntie was a part time amateur vegetarian at best and that her life long commitments to the cause were simply made up for bragging rights down at the W.I on Tuesday evenings. No professional vegetarian worth their salt would ever visually confuse chick pea and lentil based sandwich filling alternatives with liver derived forcemeats, leading me to strongly suspect that she reads The Guardian at least twice a week and enjoys sending strongly worded letters of 'concern' on 'community matters' to local council leaders on an alarmingly regular basis.
     
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  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Bravo Sir, this may be the best non-train related post ever to appear on these forums.
     
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  24. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    This is a train forum?! Damn it, I've done it again! Would anyone be kind enough to point me in the direction of the cankerous old git forums?
     
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