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No More Virgins...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KiwiLE, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

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  2. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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  3. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    Great, this reduces DTG modern content for the UK to 2 bits of the same route in over 2 years. I can understand the need to debrand but to remove a route completely? Still, no doubt there will be another 20 miles of a line in the Alps or some more ugly US diesels along soon to plug the dismal gaps in modern UK TS traction.
     
  4. Daytona

    Daytona Member

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    After seeing the banner on the affected routes I couldn't believe Dovetail were going to remove them and came over here to double check.
    I don't know the route but I assume the issue is Virgin branding on the fixed infrastructure?
    So either Dovetail -
    - rights to use the Virgin brand will end
    - do not have rights to use First Trenitalia branding
    - are unwilling to licence the rights
    - are unwilling to re/unbrand the routes
    - will licence First Trenitalia branding and rebrand the route
    - will unbrand the route
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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  5. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Guess I grabbed up that Pendolino at the right time. I don't know about the routes, but if you really really really wanted a Virgin branded train, you could always look for 3rd party reskins.
     
  6. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    I'm sorry to say that DTG won't respond to this other than to say that the contract with Virgin is up. It's not personal, Dovetail have never been a particularly customer focused company.

    For example, so many users are unable to use the thousands of pounds of DLC they've purchased because of out of memory crash dumps, most games houses would have been giving weekly updates on attempts to fix the game. To paraphrase my legal counsel, "they act like a company that's never been sued".
     
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  7. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    "They act like a company that's never been sued." Hopefully that will change someday. I think it's only a matter of time before they screw up and get themselves in trouble somehow. Over what, I don't know. But with the way they conduct business, I think it's only a matter of time.
     
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  8. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst DTG are withdrawing the Virgin branded stock I'm not sure why they are removing the route from sale?

    Virgin don't own the NWC Railway and without branding it is no different than WCMLoShap
    Maybe it will get a makeover and be released in an InterCity condition - the remodelling of Crewe station to the layout in the game took place in BR Days

    Peter
     
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  9. Wolf

    Wolf Member

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    I can understand that you are angry at how this is handled, because DTG is not handling it well, especially the lack of information.
    Which does make sense from a business point of view, not that I codone that.
    But still no need to envy the swiss the few routes they've got.
    Remember, those are the first routes the swiss get, aside from one solitary ok SBB route and a few rather bad payware routes.
    And Switzerland is a great railway country.

    As for the rather dismal state of UK releases, well the problem is that you got most of your stuff from DTG, often ranging from Decent to good, some of them were decidedly bad, but overall quality was workable to good.


    Contrast that with even germany, where most of the best routes and the best rolling stock is third party and the vast majority of them were for a long time not availlable on steam.
    There is a vibrant community of developers there and has been for over a decade.
    Now that DTG has for all intents and purposes stopped developing TS to focus on TSW, and all steam releases come from third party devs, it is only natural that those countries have an advantage in releases, just as the UK has had for all these years when DTG was actively developing.

    You still have good route releases and even rolling stock, but not on steam. The reason for that being, that a developer might gain more exposure on steam, but Valve takes quite a huge chunk and DTG will also take a portion for their services. Probably not as big Valve, but it will bite into the revenue.
    So for most third party devs it will make more sense to self publish, until they gain a big enough following.

    Also a lot of uk releases right now cover that which might have not made financial sense for DTG to cover, namely the steam era and some of the Classic BR days. Mainly due to the fact that as DTG did not cover this, the third party devs sprung up in those areas, just like they did for germany, Switzerland and a few other countries.

    Such content is also vastly easier to produce, the Big Four are defunct, and so are their brands, BR was a state owned company and defunct as well, so their brand is publicly availlable.
    Whereas modern traction is a minefield due to copyright laws, some like GBrf do support those efforts, as they did with AP.......or allow them like Cross Country with JT and DTG, or EMT with JT, some like Virgin are............a pain in the bum to word it very politely.
    Personally I'd rather use some stronger words, but then we'd like to keep this forum polite........

    Aside from that you have a huge freeware scene, who build some excellent stuff. Mainly routes and scenarios though.

    So why don't you start looking for those addons you want, or start looking at making such content yourself.
    DTG looks at what's popular and interesting to choose what they release.
    Look at what third-party devs do and make some noise.

    However do have patience with them, it can take years of development from start to finish, Weardale & Teesdale for example was afaik a more than five year long passion project.
    The problem is that DTG was such a powerhouse of releases in the past, that most british third party devs are specialized devs who often worked around that. AP used to make soundpacks, fastline makes coaches, just like Gordon Mack.
    So it might take some time to build up those devs, and especially people who can do the programming or the sound are rare.....very rare.

    They have plugged some of the gaps admirably, just look at Armstrong Powerhouse, Just Trains, and Bossman Games, who aside from their awesome kettles are now developing a Class 60.
    We are just in the middle of the Pig's cycle imho.

    I don't think the route will be withdrawn either, but a remake might be released.
    I just hope we prior owners can hold on to our content. And there are a few repainters working on repaints already.
    After all Virgin has a much harder time forbidding them to do what they like, it being non-commercial.

    Frankly I found Virgin Trains approach to this always rather dense, not seeing it as a good marketing opportunity. They sued Armstrong Powerhouse for using their logos for example, after which they granted DTG the license.
    Probably because they found out that that removed most of their presence from train sim.
    And this scorched earth policy right now is a sad end to their work which might very well sour their memory.
     
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  10. Daytona

    Daytona Member

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    A little more info -

    "Welcome to Backdated Trainsim.
    Statement regarding withdrawal of Virgin Trains Content by DTG.
    I would like to apologise, especially to the newer users, for the impending issues that will arise with regards to DTG withdrawing all Virgin Trains related content, including North Wales Coastal.
    I have been in contact with DTG and they consider it a legal matter and will not comment on the withdrawal. I also offered to buy the rights of sale to North Wales Coastal to keep it available to the community, even off Steam. That too, was declined.
    So it is not certain whether NWC will return."
    https://backdatedtrainsim.weebly.com/
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  11. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I presume with Virgin losing the West Coast franchise they want their brand to not be associated with it anymore. It's ad, but for a company as brand-reliant as Virgin, it's understandable.
     
  12. Scottish Train Girl

    Scottish Train Girl Member

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    There are many others like myself in dire need of the Virgin 390 etc. Now I am going to suggest something, perhaps it will get shot down perhaps it won't but nothing tried, nothing gained. At this point there is nothing to lose in trying.

    Now The North Wales Coastal, The North Wales Coastal extension to Holyhead, The Class 390 Virgin livery and the Virgin First Generation pack have all been withdrawn, especially for the NWC + Extension and the very much needed Class 390 in Virgin livery as its impossible to purchase them from anywhere anymore. I have searched everywhere. Dovetail cannot continue to sell it probably due to franchising issues but they won't allow any of these to be available through methods such as the workshop etc.

    Sooooo, my idea is this. Why not put a bundle together, name it "The last chance bundle" or something similar. Run it for a very limited time ( a few hours, maybe just one day even) and the proceeds would go to a charity of their choice ??? (their as in Dovetails) if they cannot sell due to franchising issues this could be a way for all of us to win as honestly without the class 390 in virgin livery those of us who are still relatively new to the hobby and did not have the chance to get hold of them myself included are really stuffed.

    Really wish one of the guys from Dovetail would consider my idea as there are alot of us really desperate to get hold of the Virgin 390 especially.

    Thanks
    Stephanie
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  13. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    And in six months when somebody else has bought TS2020 do they have to do it again for those people who just then bought the game?

    DTG was told by Virgin that the license to sell products with the Virgin Logo was being withdrawn at the end of the WCML franchise and they had to withdraw those items from a date given by Virgin. DTG would be in breach of the law if the sold them again.
    The same law stops DTG selling locos with BNSF livery outside of the US - people have been asking for that for much longer.

    There are two ways forward.
    [1] See if DTG can get a License to use the Avanti livery used by two of the new trains - but as this is not the final livery that might not work.
    [2] Sell a totally unbranded version of the Pendolino and let the community provide a repaint which as it's free would not be a problem

    Peter
     
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  14. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I'd actually be completely happy if they put the new 390 into the liveries from the original pack (IC, GNER, LMS) and sold it!
     
  15. car147

    car147 New Member

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    390's back, i just purchased it via Steam. It's in InterCity liveries.
     
  16. trev123

    trev123 Active Member

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  17. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The real 390 was never in InterCity Livery - this is a fictitious livery
    You can get a reskin so it appears in Virgin Livery but without any logos
    Down towards the bottom https://www.dpsimulation.org.uk/miscreskins.html

    Peter
     

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