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Northern Line

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by ZeenozPlays, Mar 22, 2021.

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  1. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Today, I am Suggesting the Northern Line of the London Underground.

    Most of the information can be found in the video below:


    The Northern Line runs between Edgware and Morden. After the Camden Town Station, the Northern Line splits into two sections. One section runs to the East, terminating at High Barnet, and the Mill Hill East Branch, and the other section runs to the West, terminating at Edgware.

    Again, after the Camden Town Station (this time going southbound), the line splits again into two branches. The Eastern Branch is called the Charing Cross Branch, and the Western Branch is called the Bank Branch. They both reconnect at the Kennington Station and run to Morden.

    In the future (Late 2021), some trains running via the Bank Branch, will run down a New Branch to Battersea Power Station, stopping at Nine Elms along the way. There are proposals to extend the line even further to Clapham Junction.

    [​IMG]

    --

    The Northern Line uses the 1995 Stock. These trains are fairly similar to the Jubilee Line's 1996 Stock. The main differences lie in the Mechanical and Electrical Components on the train.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What do you think about this suggestion?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  2. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    There’s already one Underground line in TSW and a London one at that so I think, at least at this point the genre is well represented. At least for me while the Bakerloo line was interesting it doesn’t have a enough interest to continue going back to it. Underground services are all pretty similar and the time spent in tunnels - as opposed to being outside with the weather - gets boring. I know Subway enthusiasts won’t agree.
    One hit against the Northern Line is going to be the complexity of the route structure. DTG tend to do point to point routes not those with branches. It’s also a long line with the branches, significantly more than the Bakerloo. DTG don’t do long. However Underground sections are presumably relatively easy and cheap to model.
     
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  3. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    It's not that long of a line though. Only about 36 Miles. That's smaller than some routes in the game like Southeastern, HMA, and SKA. And while yes, most Underground Lines (excluding the Subsurface Lines) are somewhat similar to each other, they are still very interesting, especially the Northern Line with it's multiple Branches.
     
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  4. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I’ll bite. How are the services interesting? One type of stock, one type of service, no mix of traffic type (passenger, goods). Little if any AI. What differences will I get between one service and another? Basically once you’ve learnt the braking points for entering stations (which can be challenging to start underground) what else is there to master? And why do you think that DTG would do multiple branches?
     
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  5. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Almost 30 TPH on certain parts of the line, yet there will be little, if any AI?

    The 2 Branches have different services. One may go to Edgware, while the other goes to High Barnet, and Mill Hill East.

    They've technically done it before on other Routes like LIRR (the Hempstead & Atlantic Branch), and East Coastway (The Seaford Branch).
     
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  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Would be better with an earlier era when services were a mixture of 1938, 1959 and1972 stock.
     
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  7. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    DTG don’t include all of the services for AI, nothing like it and underground you usually see nothing.

    The branch structure, as you can see from your map, is more complex than the examples you give

    So the only difference I would see on services would be the differences created by the branches. Don’t you think that to be more widely adopted people would want more than that?
     
  8. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Member

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    Wouldn't the ATO make this route incredibly boring? Door Operation World 2?
     
  9. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I would like a version of this route in that time setting.
     
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  10. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    ATO can be turned off. Operators are encouraged to sometimes operate without ATO to not get rusty.
    Also, the route could be set in a time period before ATO was added (Pre-2010).
     
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  11. opgames

    opgames Member

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    Well mabye not the 38 or 72 stock, the 72 stock is on the bakerloo and we have already recieved the 38 stock in a previous roadmap. So,
    95 stock - Comes with the route,
    59 stock - Pay as addon
     
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  12. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    On ATO being switched off its a common theme when people are suggesting modern routes. In reality its an exception to turn it off. In truth many modern lines because of the automation are unsuitable as route choices. An earlier route setting is potentially more interesting but the issue there is that DTG would not be able to reuse existing assets and would have to make in period items.
     
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  13. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Member

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    On top of automation, I'm not convinced a deep level line would be fun to drive. Maybe a vintage Central line but why bother when GOBLIN and other overground lines would at least have something to look at.
     
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  14. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    And maybe the 72 could be layered on from the BKL. Even if the OG route used the Mark I Stock. It could take place in the late 80's/90's depending on if you want to see the 95 Stock.
     
  15. dean#1036

    dean#1036 New Member

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    Please make it happen the Northern line needs to be in the game.
     
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  16. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea for another route London Underground to be playable however as of right now this line operates with CBTC. If Dovetail Games wanted the 38 stock it just needs a reskin from Isle of Wight into TFL paint while the 1972 from Bakerloo Line dlc can be used as is and the title for this downloadable content is the Northern line classics if DTG wants the Northern Line.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Your description of the Northern Line is not really descriptive of it at all.
    The Northern line isn't one line - It's made up of:
    • two "heads" at the northern end going to High Barnet and Edgware (with the shuttle to Mill Hill East from Finchley Central) - these cross just before Camden Town which has 4 platforms enabling trains to run down either central branch from either "head"
    • Two "central branches" either via Moorgate and Bank or Charing Cross, these join up at Kennington
    • Trains on the CHX branch normally terminate at Kennington
    • Trains on the Bank branch almost always continue to Morden
    • At peak times CHX branch trains may continue further South
    • There is a loop at Kennington which allows southbound terminating trains to run around to the northbound tunnels.
    • There is an extension being built from Kennington to Battersea Power Station, due to open next year
    • Just about everything south of Kentish Town and Chalk Farm is underground, north of this is elevated on viaducts
    • The tallest structure on the underground is on the Mill Hill branch - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollis_Brook_Viaduct
    So the variety on this route would be:
    Trains from either Barnet or Edgware can run to either central branch and would terminate appropriately
    Running the loop (even as a passenger (possible trophy reward))
    Terminating early, with multiple branches and crossovers more chance of this than on Bakerloo
     
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  18. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ARuscoe fair enough but that all sounds way more complex than DTG have provided to date for other lines. Its fine for people to make line suggestions but for me they need to fit the box of what DTG commonly provides. So Kings Cross to Edinburgh would be a great route but the chances of it ever being considered are low.
     
  19. paulgregs

    paulgregs Active Member

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    Bringing out a second London underground route when they've done one already would be a PR disaster when you consider how much more there is to explore....
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Just no. He didn't suggest the route to be in an eariler era. I notice when someone asks for a modern representation of a route, you ask for a older version of the route
     
  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Kings Cross to Edinburgh is a long route. The Northern Line is only 36 miles long. I personally wouldn't mind seeing another deep tube level route and if it came to fruition and it seems you don't like it, then don't buy it. I would love to see more subway lines in the game in the future because what we mostly have is commuter rail and high speed routes and subway routes are very cool and are what make cities move
     
  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Not really. London Underground routes are one of the most requested things to be in the game so it wouldn't be a pr disaster. The New York City subway ranks 9th so there is clearly interest for subway routes
     
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    So what, there is no rule I'm aware of that says you can't augment a request with your own and possibly that of others preferred era? If I suggested a route set in 1970's/1980's era then another poster added they would like to see a more modern iteration, I would respect that view.
    So unless and until an actual moderator comes along and tells me it is inappropriate I will continue to add my view to suggestions that appeal. If you are so obsessed with modern bland plastic trains that my epoch offends you, then put me on your ignore list.
     
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  24. mrcharliemiggins2.0

    mrcharliemiggins2.0 Well-Known Member

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    It would also be good to see the Battersea extension, which opens later this year, if this ever came to TSW2.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't just make arguments FOR things, but I do prefer explanations to be complete and the OP wasn't
     
  26. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, I wouldn't mind an older version of the line. Everyone has their own time period they like best. For me, it's from the Mid 90's to the Present Day.
     
  27. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate you adding more information to this. I'm not from London, and could only find minimal details about this line, I just went off of what I found. I wasn't aware of how complex the service pattern of this route was. I thought It simply just ran trains on the two branches.
     
  28. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 I never understand why the Subway fans get so aggressive on this forum. Yes, if I don’t like it I don’t have to buy it. But the suggestion here asked for feedback and therefore people should expect negative as well as positive feedback. This isn’t meant to only be a thread for those that want more subway lines. As for Kings Cross to Edinburgh being a long route, yes, but you purposely miss the point I was making. This proposal doesn’t fit the box that DTG have for TSW releases any more than a long route would.
    As for their being demand for subway routes I do think that’s because you subway fans tend to push your agenda on here pretty hard (‘We want the NYC subway’). Nothing wrong in that but TSW has plenty of other genres that need attention, Steam being the most obvious.
    I’m glad that DTG did the Bakerloo line, but for me (and I suspect others) it gets little or any usage. It is too limited and frankly another deep tube line isn’t going to be that different. Load, leave the station, accelerate, slow for the platform, load. With more automated stock it becomes online Horlicks. My opinion, but DTG to determine if a line might be worth looking at need to hear all viewpoints.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing, subway fans don't aggressively push for subway routes nor am I a "subway fan." There are casual players who simply would like to see subway routes in the game. And subway companies like London Underground and the MTA New York City subway are popular and very recognizable as well hence why they are things that most players want including casuals. Yes it may not be interesting to be in a tunnel (even though alot of subway lines in different countries do go above ground including the Bakerloo line) but personally I would love to see more subway routes in the game due to the simple fact that dtg have not made many subway lines for ts and only 1 for tsw. We mostly have commuter rail or high speed lines. Also your effectively stopping, opening doors loading passengers onboard the train, closing doors, accelerate out the station and decelerate for the upcoming station and doing the same thing again and again in a high speed or commuter rail route like you would do in a subway line. Only difference is the distance in subway lines aren't as long. I do like high speed lines. Hell I would love to see more in the future. You could call me a "High Speed Fan" since personally my favorite types of services are high speed services and express services. You mention the Bakerloo line but here's the thing, the Bakerloo line is pretty much an isolated line. There are no other London Underground lines that run alongside it. Other subway systems like the MTA New York City Subway have lines that run alongside each other (some are express and local) and have different service patterns as well. You may not be interested in subway routes and that's fine but you can't deny the fact that subway routes are popular. I've seen requests for the Berlin U-Bahn, Nuremberg U-Bahn and the Frankfurt U-Bahn as well by new players.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
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  30. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Groups do come on here and push, with a small number of people trying to suggest there is huge demand for some sort of content. A while back it was a group from the US North East who pushed hard for regional content. Just look at the number of subway/metro threads that have been raised in the past couple of weeks and the multiple suggestions from one poster. In terms of whether they are popular that’s an easy thing to suggest on a forum with limited posters like this. Half a dozen subway fans all pushing multiple subway ideas doesn’t make them popular. Hey, I’d like the Tarka line. One thread, get a couple of people interested, add in some multiple posting handles and you could make it look like branch lines in North Devon was the most popular idea with TSW2 players.
     
  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The New York City subway is ranked #9 as something that most players want according to dtg. Dutch routes is number 1 according to dtg so yes for certain things there is a huge demand. DTG has said London Underground still gets many requests. Nobody is making that up. You may not like that type of content which is fine but if you don't like the idea if it came to fruition, don't buy it. I don't want to sound aggressive but I'm being real with you. I read the suggestions thread and if there is a route that ever came to fruition that I don't like, I won't buy it. It's not that difficult. Nobody pushes for anything. People come and suggest a route that they want to see and that route may interest people and then they respond to that idea. You don't like subway routes because they are repetitive even though pretty much every passenger route is repetitive because you are accelerating, breaking, stopping, opening doors, waiting for passengers, closing doors and doing the same again and again so I really don't get the issue but ok. Also most subway lines do go aboveground so your not always in the tunnel. If you don't like the idea that's fine but to say that people are pushing a agenda and calling people "subway fans" is so unnecessary
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  32. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Same situation as with the North East US gang who descended on here. When anyone wasn’t totally in agreement with their agenda they go aggressive, just as you are tallboy7648 . Hardly difficult to visualize you getting together on social media and deciding you are going to flood the forum with pro subway posts. Maybe the NY subway is number 9, which suggests a couple of years before it sees the light of day IF it can be licensed. Dutch routes would be good. But the platform does not need the Northern, the Met, The Jubilee or the District at this point. It has the Bakerloo and none of those lines, in particular with modern automated stock is going to be that different.
    Nothing against subways, in fact I’ve a pretty large library on them and in particular the London Underground. But the reality is, as a game simulation they are very limited. People misunderstand what DTG look for here. They don’t react to the ‘We want the NYC Subway’ banners. What they are looking for are ideas for lines that will broaden the platform and that can be made within the constraints that they have for packages.
     
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  33. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes please! If it went on to Ilfracombe, even better!
     
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  34. NoddyMac

    NoddyMac Active Member

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    If you need help with development for the Northern line, I have acquired the layout for you to work with. You’re welcome.
     

    Attached Files:

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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That's funny lol
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    See I wasn't being aggressive. I was just being real but I guess your not used to that. You apparently like subway routes but then proceed to call people who like them subway fans which was so unnecessary and pushing their agenda aggressive. Would you call a potentially new player who suggests a subway route a subway fan and a aggressive pusher for a subway route or for any route in the suggestions thread for that matter? Would you call a person who suggests a high speed route a aggressive pusher for another high speed route? Also an argument could be made that the platform doesn't need dutch routes, steam trains, br era routes are unnecessary. (I don't think they are unnecessary and it would be cool for those routes to be made) Any route or system broadens the platform including subway routes. Not all subway systems are the same you know.

    BTW DTG do have the MTA license which is the operator that operates the NYC subway is the MTA since they made the MTA Long Island Railroad so the MTA New York City subway could be made if dtg wanted too
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  37. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 yes, people who like subways are subway fans. Not sure why you think that is ‘unnecessary’. On licensing, unlike you I haven’t read the DTG licenses but just having a license doesn’t necessarily mean a free hit. If it does cover subways it is more than likely that there would be some cost to activating that section of the contract. Or perhaps at this time DTG don’t think that the NYC subway isn’t commercially viable, is too expensive to make or that the platform does not need another subway line now,

    I worked in NYC for twenty odd years and know the subway system well. Personally I would think it difficult to model. Hopefully if they did do it it would be more successful than the Long Island line which is totally devoid of life.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I also said it was unnecessary to call people who ask for a new content a aggressive pusher for that content to be made since you seem to think that people who suggests certain things an aggressive pusher
     
  39. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    Aggressive pusher? Multiple threads, multiple suggestions, long dead threads exhumed from the dead, banners ‘we want’ suggesting some sort of group think, instant pushback on any negative comments on threads, just being ‘real’. That enough for you?
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That's not being aggressive. Having a banner that says We Want this or that is not being aggressive. That's like saying anybody who suggests anything on the fourm is being aggressive. "Being real" means being honest where I come from. I guess you interpret aggressive a different way or are a bit sensitive
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  41. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I really did not want to see this thread turn into an argument over 'Non-Subway Fans' and 'Subway Fans'.
     
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  42. NoddyMac

    NoddyMac Active Member

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    All this bickering is childish and unnecessary. There are people who like subways/underground routes. As I work for London Underground, it does interest me to see the level of detail that goes into the simulations etc. Some people don’t want subway routes, that’s cool too. If you don’t want a particular route, simply don’t purchase it if it becomes available. This whole thread is for the purpose of people sharing what they would like to see. There is no right or wrong. Share your opinions then simply move on.
     
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  43. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    You don’t get it do you NoddyMac ? The suggestion isn’t meant to just be a love in for the ideas. Its a place to debate whether ideas are good and secondly whether they might be practical. The idea of ‘if you don’t like it don’t buy it’ misses the point. Perhaps you are not aware but DTG have limited bandwidth and only produce a few routes a year. Its important to get all views not just the ‘We want more subways line’ view.
     
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    NoddyMac has a point though. If this route was to ever be made, you don't have to buy it and since it seems your not interested in it, don't buy it. There are some that are interested and some that are not interested and that's fine. If there is a route that you would like in the game, make a suggestion instead of saying people don't understand and calling people aggressive pushers for their agenda when they suggest a subway route. DTG are upgrading the dispatcher so when the upgrades are done a line like this with it's service patterns could be made so it can be made in the future especially since there is still a demand for more London Underground routes
     
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  45. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 for me not to buy it it has to be made. What you miss is that there are many, many interesting railroad routes around the world but the number that will fit into the standard TSW route ‘box’ are very few. Making suggestions for lines that do not fit into the box, or that aren’t trimmed in some way to fit the box achieve nothing. You can get together on the forum to say that you want it, you can all have little banners saying that ‘we want x’ but that does not resolve the problem. I’ve posted on some of the threads things I think would be a problem, like the complexity of the branch system for the Northern Line. Your way of addressing that is to say things like ‘there is still a demand for more Underground routes’.
    There is a rash of subway proposals on the forum and we both know that’s not a coincidence. It doesn’t help you, it doesn’t convince people that there’s a huge demand for nothing but subway routes. One well thought out proposal, that is different to what is already on the platform (so not an LT route) and one that fits the sort of size and complexity of what DTG builds might succeed. DTG know there business. A NY subway line would be an obvious choice. Why haven’t they done one? As I’ve commented elsewhere maybe because they are huge modeling challenges. The subway tunnels in Manhattan are enormously more complex than a LT deep tube. It isn’t just the work - its getting the needed performance and matching the effort to the likely sales. Find a NY line (or portion of the line) that fits the box and you might have a winner.

    We all have ideas. Personally I think a Paris metro line might be interesting. Maybe line 6, which is about the right length. But it would be very scenery intensive. There are some proposals on the forum for RER lines. That’s interesting too, but they are long. Perhaps the Paris to Versaille line that runs on the Right Bank?

    I’ve always been a big fan of the MRT in Singapore. That would be something new for the platform although the level of automation might be an issue.

    I’m not stopping any of your proposals from being turned into routes. I’m just stating an opinion but if you and Noddy think that this gets solved by me not just buying it, you aren’t thinking very hard.
     
  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The Northern Line could fit into that box. It's only 36 miles long and they are upgrading the dispatcher as well so saying that the game can't handle it when they are gonna upgrade the dispatcher makes no sense in my opinion. There are also routes that have branch lines as well so I really don't see the problem. If the route was made and since you don't like the idea, don't buy it. It's that simple
     
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  47. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 why your suggestions fail and will continue to fail ignoring the issues and just repeating like your buddy Noddy if you don’t like it don’t buy it. Why did DTG do the Bakerloo line and not the Northern or some other line in the first place? Is it the most iconic? No? Is it the most interesting? No. Is it because the route structure and needed scenery is one of the easiest? Yes.

    Anyway, enjoy staring at your screen for a few years waiting for the Northern Line to come.
     
  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Bakerloo was mostly an experiment and since they have learned from that experiment and are upgrading the dispatcher, that opens up the potential for new subway routes. We've also gotten more complex and scenic routes after tsw2 came out with Bakerloo like clinchfield or lgv for example in terms of scenery. Your reasons as to why it can't be made don't stand but I'll say it again, if you don't like it don't buy it. It's not a difficult decision. Heck Sam would probably say the same thing. "If you don't like it, don't get it"
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2021
  49. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    tallboy7648 obviously the next subway line they will work on will be the Northern because its would be very similar to one that was very recently released. You keep on telling me not to buy it. Now you are suggesting other people would say the same thing. Sam won’t tell you that the Northern Line isn’t coming (you don’t tell customers that) but he knows it isn’t either. Enjoy staring at your screen.
     
  50. NoddyMac

    NoddyMac Active Member

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    I don’t think you realise just how hypocritical you are. I’ve seen you make remarks about people “spamming posts” because of the amount suggesting they want to see more subway routes, yet in every single one of them I have seen you make the same remarks, thus you are spamming posts. I stand by what I said, you just need to give your head a wobble.
     
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