1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ntp - How To Avoid Running Red Signals?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by some1, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. some1

    some1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Greetings

    A large portion of NTP route has simple signalling without yellow aspects, just semaphored or red/green lights. What is the proper way to drive this part? The timetable assumes driving at a speed close to speed limit, but you're unable to stop at many red signals unless you don't exceed 15-20 mph.

    How it was driven safely in real life? Radio and checking with dispatchers?
     
  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Start slowing down when you see a double yellow.
     
  3. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    186
    As a driver, you would know where each and every signal is, the distance between the Distant and Home signals and gradient etc, so as to control the train to a stop at a red if required.

    This info is given to you in-game so slow down approaching a Distant, if you get a yellow at the Distant signal, the next Home signal is red. If the Distant is green, keep rolling through!

    Also, the line was controlled by signalmen (or women) in lever frame signal boxes (such as Miles Platting etc) or in large, modernised locations like Leeds and Man Vic, by electronic Power Signal Boxes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  4. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    299
    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a red light that I’ve had to stop at on NTP..
     
    • Upvote Upvote x 1
  5. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    292
    I did the final express service in the Class 45 part of the NTP Journey last night and there was a 101 trundling along ahead of me that meant I got a red every time I picked up any speed. Had to slam on the anchors from speed one of the times and came squealing to a halt about 3 yards in front of the red!
     
    • Upvote Upvote x 2
  6. some1

    some1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Guys, what yellows? There are no yellows on large part of the route.

    For example at the southern entrance to the longest tunnel, you have a single semaphore, and about 300 yards later a single green/red signal (2 bulbs). Line limit here is 45 mph. Yesterday I passed semaphore that was up only to see a red light behind a corner. Impossible to stop unless you go at around 10 mph. That's the situation I'm asking about. There are several places like that on the route where you can only see the signal from up close and there are no repeaters or advance warning signals.

    Annotation 2019-11-20 183648.jpg
     
  7. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2017
    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    756
    Hmmmm. I was about to ask whether you have read the manual regarding signals; fortunately, I looked at the manual first, in which signals are not ever mentioned! How odd.
     
  8. some1

    some1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    I've read the manual to TVL which seems to have the same signalling, but what does that change in the situation I've just described? On the screenshot there's a main semaphore, main signal with just red/green aspects right behind the corner, and none of them has any distant aspects.
     
  9. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    186
    In the image you gave, there are 2 clear signals and the Distant (which tells you the state of the signals ahead and will be way back behind you here) would've been showing green, you missed it?
    The red signal to the left of the green one is for the Loop line so can be ignored in this example.

    This method of signalling requires extra vigilance as if you miss the Distant signal, you gotta slow right down in case the "Home" signal is red. There is no radio communication. Contact with a signalbox was either lineside phone or a long walk. Hope this helps.

     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2019
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    201
    How do you differentiate between distant and home signals?

    Edit- I think i found the answer to my own question..
    "From 1872, distant signal arms (see below) were distinguished by having a "fishtail" notch cut into the end. All signal arms were still painted red at this time. In the 1920s, the British railway companies began to colour their distant signal arms yellow to better distinguish them from the red stop signals. The red lenses in distant signals were changed to yellow at the same time. The practice of using red distant arms has survived in some countries however."
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  11. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    1,876
    Distant has a yellow arm and the home has a red arm.
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  12. stujoy

    stujoy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    81
    There are three types of signalling on NTP - Semaphore signals with distant and stop signals, colour light signals with distant and stop signals, and the more modern three or four colour light signals.

    With the colour light system with both distant and stop signals it can be hard to tell whether a signal is a distant signal or a stop signal (distant signals can show a yellow light or a green light, stop signals can show a red light or a green light) when they show green. In the game, distant signals do not show in the HUD, stop signals do, so they can be learnt that way.

    Adding to the confusion is the fact that more than one stop signal can share the same distant signal, and you don't know without learning the route when you pass from one signalling system to another. In real life of course you would know everything about the route before driving it.
     
  13. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    186
    A distant signal is aptly named...it is distant from the station or limits it is warning you about.

    You will never just come onto a red signal with no warning in-game so if you see a red, you've missed the distant. It's a simple and safe system IRL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  14. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    31
    Too many instances of......... double yellow - yellow - green.
    Which is all wrong in regards 3 aspect colour lights.

    No a Distant signal does not do that KiwiLE. It just gives advance warning of the next Home (stop signal).
     
  15. some1

    some1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Guys, I think I have a pretty good understanding of what a distant signal is, what a yellow light means or what is the difference between a semaphore painted yellow or red. But so far no one has answered my question. I replayed the service that gave me trouble, and got exactly the same result: a red signal at the entrance to the tunnel, because the section was occupied by the train in front of me, seemingly without any forward warning. You all talk about distant signals, so which one is the distant signal for the red light in front of the tunnel?

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2019-11-21 09-57-06-08.jpg

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2019-11-21 09-57-38-79.jpg

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2019-11-21 09-58-08-21.jpg

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2019-11-21 09-58-37-83.jpg

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2019-11-21 09-58-48-75.jpg


    The service is the first one of journeys called "Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Express".
     
  16. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    186
    No, a distant gives info on the signals in the station limits to which it applies. Green, then the whole lot is green, yellow - not so, expect a red next. Absolute block is different from Track Circuit Block.

    Also, the NTP Freight pack manual has a semaphore/absolute block signalling guide in it.
    https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/ste...ht_Pack_Driver's_Manual_-_EN.pdf?t=1559812881

    And yes some1, you shouldn't be getting a red there with the signals you were given. Bugger. :o
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    • Downvote Downvote x 1
  17. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2019
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    201
    Which stations is the tunnel between? I ask because then myself or someone else can spawn in on foot and walk the line to check..
     
  18. some1

    some1 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's "Standedge tunnel" location, you can spawn right where the red light is on my screenshots.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  19. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2019
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    201
    It may not be today but I'll certainly have a look.. If you fancy a go yourself walk back and look for signals preceeding with "a "fishtail" notch cut into the end. All signal arms were still painted red at this time. In the 1920s, the British railway companies began to colour their distant signal arms yellow to better distinguish them from the red stop signals."
     
  20. stujoy

    stujoy Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    81
    The distant signal might have supposed to have been on the double signal post in your middle photo, where the signal is for the siding. There's definitely a post there for it.

    More likely is that it's the one on the overhead stanchion in the previous photo and it isn't working properly in the game, covering only the stop signal before the siding exit instead of both that one and the one at the tunnel entrance.

    I'd report it as a bug if I were you. Send your screenshots with it.
     
  21. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    953
    Likes Received:
    680
    Looks like a bug to me, Id expect a yellow semaphore at the loop. The tunnel sits between Greenfield station to the west and Marsden to the east. Im driving it now out of curiosity. Im 3 minutes behind your trip and green. However there is an oil train directly ahead. I suspect the plan is for that service to get to Huddersfield well ahead of our express service, and being early has either confused the dispatcher or those signals that are supposed to be amber are never used in the game?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  22. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2019
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    358
    Had a similar problem here:
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/19-48-manchester-to-leeds-express.17422/
     
  23. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    186
    Yes, it is a bug. If any of the semaphores in the signalled block are red, then the distant signal should be yellow.
     
  24. Valdez

    Valdez New Member

    Joined:
    Thursday
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2
    I agree there are quite a few with this fault in the NTP route. The Distant signal is only “looking” at the next home signal, not all the home signals. The Standedge one is bad as the sighting distance is about 200 yards in a 40 mph area. Ashton-Under-Lyne and Marsden station starters are also simple two aspect with no distant, repeater or other signal capable of giving a caution.
     
    • Upvote Upvote x 2

Share This Page