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Passing Signal At Red...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jetgriff, Sep 28, 2019.

  1. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

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    I have not seen comments about this elsewhere so..
    I don't think passing a signal at red should end the game,.
    When we used to pass a red (and realized or unable to stop) we would proceed at caution to next signal, the signalman would see and expect this from his panel.
    Junctions were protected by "outer" and "inner" home signals so missing the "outer" you would still stop at the "inner".
    I just thinking the game could be improved by modifying this. (if possible)
     
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  2. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    There needs to be some adverse consequences for a SPAD, though, don't you think? What do you suggest as an alternative?
     
  3. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Running a Red is never a good thing it means that something is not right up ahead. Could mean there is a oncoming train that has not switched over to another track yet. Or you have caught up to another train going the same direction as you, or could be stopped at a Red himself.

    You not stopping for your red means you are 100% likely to crash into said train ahead of you, so ending a game on passing a Red is a good idea considering what the alternative outcome would be. In real life if that happened the crew would have seconds to react, the Conductor would have to get on the radio to RTC(Rail Traffic Control) and find out what is ahead. While the engineer starts bringing the train to a safe controlled stop, and if there is a oncoming that RTC gets that train to a controlled safe stop as well.

    So I am with InspectorTiger I would also like to hear what you would suggest happen then.
     
  4. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    So are you saying that there was no consequence? No reprimand?

    I guess what should happen should reflect reality? How about:
    1. You manage to avoid a crash and get in trouble. Profile locked for a week. Say three strikes before your profile gets permanently locked.
    2. You crash and get in trouble. No casualties, counts as two strikes. You get shown spinning newspapers with shock headlines. Profile locked for a month.
    3. You crash and there are multiple casualties including yourself and then see spinning newspapers with shock headlines. Instant permanent profile lock.

    Obviously, you'd be allowed to set up a new profile.
     
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  5. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

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    we are confusing the TSW world with the real world of trains, I was asking to make the situation more realistic.
    Deduct points or whatever depending on "how" the "run by" was actioned, but proceed as in the real world.
    When I was on the footplate we "ran by" a stop signal many times.. and we were not immediately lined up and shot by control, we were trained the actions to take to responded to "running by". Obviously completely not seeing the signal (i.e. Norton Fritzwarren, Nuneaton) does result in major accident.
    "Running by" a few yards needs to be treated with reactions by crew as I pointed out in my post. Too much and you get a "Number 1" please explain and taken off main line work.
    Other times the signalman could fiddle the block instrument, illegal but done to save "breaking the glass to reset".
    Railway work is all about reacting to situations.
    Just my thought on making the TSW experience realistic. Run by, carry on at caution to next signal or next train, contact signal man...
    The world did not end just because you ran by.
    A crew would know the line and would not barge over a junction or wrong set of points if confrunted..
     
  6. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    So I do not get what you really want you say that we are confusing TSW with the real world, yet you want the game to more realistic. That says to me that you want it to be exactly like the real world, and in the real world trains just do not simply blow through Red Signals. Even if they did they would not proceed with caution they would come to a halt and not proceed until they have permission to proceed.
     
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  7. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there is much point changing this mechanic, even if the game didn't end straight away, you would be heading straight into a crash or mess with AI services which would break the flow of gameplay. However I think an autosave feature could be implemented so that if you SPAD you will get the option to load the most recent save. Although there is a manual save feature it can be annoying to pause the game at every milestone, save, then if you fail you have to go back to the main menu to reload the save file. If the game autosaved in the background every 10 minutes, it would be a better compromise.
     
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  8. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    At least in Germany, if you pass a signal at danger, trust me, you are not going to continue that drive. Nor any other that day. If it turns out your fault, possibly never again, depending on the severity. Apart from firefighters and ambulances, such an event is in many ways treated just like an actual wreck. DB's emergency manager at the scene, government investigation, possibly court hearings, the whole lot.

    And it gets even better: In some situations, if your train stands still and you think, hey lemme move a bit closer to that red signal up there... far away still... just walking speed... will save me a few seconds when it turns green... Nope. Still a notifiable incident. You've just earned yourself a free afternoon yet again.

    Point being: TSW kicking you out of that cab for a SPAD is damn close to reality.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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  9. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you as for the autosave I suppose you could do a game save at every point that was a good, and that way if something went wrong you could restart from your last save point.
     
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  10. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Agree with you and could not have said it any better than that.
     
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  11. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    When you speak of "inner" "outer" signals, the red is the outer, and yellow the inner. If you run a red, as stated quite a bit above, you're probably not going to the next signal at "reduced speed", you're either being sent home, the hospital, or your casket.
     
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  12. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

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    I'm talking Pennine Route and steam days.. Junctions were protected by distant...outer home.. inner home,, starter... both the outer and inner and starters were standard 5 foot semaphores worked by the absolute block system, todays colour lights are usually controlled by a big panel box and each signal has a phone (well they did on the Weymouth - Waterloo line I worked as a guard 1978/83)
    If you can, check my "Derby Manchester Sheffield" route on TS 2019 you can see this at Water Orton Jct.

    .
     
  13. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Also, running past a red by a few yards could derail your train. Say you're supposed to stop on a side track. Tracks locked in place for the main track and you're on the past track or side track. If you're going, for say, 5 mph, that's not enough force or speed to set that track point out of lock for you to continue, so you just derailed your train.
     
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  14. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm sorry to burst your bubble, this is 2019, not 1978 or the steam days.
     
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  15. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

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    well please tell that to the TSW team who just created the Peninne Route..
    There is no need to start trolling on here, we discus things not try one up man ship... keep calm..
     
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  16. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Love Germany, DB is run with a precision, as a first impression, very easy to use, efficient and all round pleasant experience.
     
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  17. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    I'm with the OP here- you're allowed to make other mistakes and learn from them. Questions are always asked about any SPAD incident but there are clearly degrees of offence. Rolling a yard or two past a stop signal is like pulling up over the line at traffic lights- an infringement and to be avoided but unlikely to cause any great risk. Barrelling through at speed is asking for trouble.
     
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  18. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    DB and the BEU (Federal railway accident investigation board) begs to differ. You've run over a red light, which mean you also ran over an active PZB magnet, which in turn automatically triggers an alarm, gets logged in the black boxes etc.
     
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  19. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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    I guess TSW has it this way to stop people from intentionally creating crashes for the LOLs which I can understand but I can also understand those that want to try to save the train and carry on.
     
  20. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Valid point, but then again, that rigorous punishment made me a more responsible and overall VERY quickly. Red signal coming? Careful now, this is not fun and games.
    The ideal solution, as so often, would be an option somewhere in the settings.
     
  21. Jez

    Jez Well-Known Member

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  22. InspectorTiger

    InspectorTiger Active Member

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    Of course in real life there are different types of SPADs with different severities, including signalling faults, and the consequences for the driver can range from just paperwork to actually looking for work. In the game, the worst punishment available is the loss of all your unsaved progress in the service/scenario—and I think that's about right. It's enough to keep you sharp.
     
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  23. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    jetgriff i appreciate the old days and the way signalling mightve worked and the penalty passing reds may have given (or not) but DTG wont change the stucture of the game with a slightly older route unfortunately.

    Things were a bit different then

    There are legions of pre teen armchair quarterbacks on here that will argue you til the cows come home. Just saying :)
     
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  24. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    In case anyone speaks German here:



    3:20 is the interesting part regarding this topic.
     
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  25. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Great video I only wish that I understood German
     
  26. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to down-vote your post, but I do not like your idea of an auto-save feature -- unless it could be turned off, which you didn't mention.
     
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  27. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Let me add, as long as it doesn't overwrite any saves you might have made manually. Other than that, I don't really see any harm it would do. It saves the scenario/service every time you complete a task (stopping at stations etc), overwriting the previous autosave. And when the service is finished successfully, or you cancel it, the save gets deleted again.

    But making it optional is always a good idea.
     
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  28. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    This is essentially what I meant, most games have autosaves and manual ones. For example Hitman 2 will autosave occasionally but you can do a manual save whenever you like, plus manual saves do not overwrite autosaves and vice versa. I wasn't suggesting to get rid of manual saves.
     
  29. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Hm, nevermind.. seems like that's exactly what TSW does already...
    20190930224051_1.jpg

    Maybe I should produce more SPADs so I know what I'm talking about...
    (doing this felt so wrong by the way, you can't imagine :D )
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  30. Mikey_9835

    Mikey_9835 Well-Known Member

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    That must be a PC only thing because I have never seen that option.
     
  31. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    I'd have enjoyed a game mode where the free roam would allow you to pass red but at the expense of removing all the other traffic.

    Example- I spent hours building a consist from bits and pieces from one of the yards and just wanted to take it out on the track to do some recording and photos. Get to the red signal and it ends the game.

    If I'd been given an option to continue acknowledging that all other rail traffic would be removed I'd have opted in if given the chance.

    I do understand that trying to circumvent all of the other traffic and to get it playing by whatever rules came into my head signal to signal would be impractical... however removing traffic entirely if electing to go through the red signals wouldn't be an unreasonable request at the expense of the occasional AI train that rumbles by in 20 seconds with two mannequins at the helm.
     
  32. solon

    solon Active Member

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    +1
    I agree. The passage of a red signal without agreement should cause a big penalty points, but not end the game.
     
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  33. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Not much of a penalty to lose points which don't really count for anything!
     
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  34. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    The ideal solution would probably, to vary the penalty by country. Run over red on CSX? Who cares, it's a free country! Run over red in developed countries? You're fired.
     
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  35. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Now this is a trolling comment if I ever saw one... while hopefully it was made tongue in cheek, not real conducive to open debate of the topic at hand.

    For those who want a little more information on SPAD, - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_passed_at_danger
     
  36. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Not in the slightest. If in the US, you just call the signaller, say sowwy, and wait for permission to proceed at restricted speed, then that's how it should be done in TSW if technically possible.

    Our side of the Atlantic handles it a lot stricter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Well, now I know you your depth of knowledge of the US signaling systems. Have a grand day. .
     
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  38. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    That might apply where you live but on UK Rails the Yellow Distant (Outer) serves to tell the Driver the Red Stop Signal (inner) might be at Danger. and the driver needs to stop at the Signal

    And in the UK if a Driver has a SPAD he stops and speaks to the Signalman before moving the train.
    Most Colour Light Signals have TPWS which will cause an Automatic Brake Application if a Signal is Passed at Danger.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_Protection_&_Warning_System

    Peter
     
  39. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Ours for the most part is like that. I think I might have confused the "inner and outer" with each other. Though I'm going to take a look at your link.
     
  40. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    So TPWS is a working version of our PTC or positive train control. Cool
     

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