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Please Dtg, Fix The Lighting Issues

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HuggernautNL, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    I cannot see anything at night, everything is pitch black.
    Currently I use ReShade to change the graphics but that makes every light really bright.

    Please DTG, please fix your lighting and give us contrast, gamma and brightness settings.
    The night services are undoable like this :(

    [​IMG]
    Steam Discussion
     
  2. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Member

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    I think it depends what you mean by lighting 'issues'. I think the visibility of unlit object is pretty realistic - it's night time, so it's dark, and you can't see a lot. I think where TSW falls down is the fact that things which would be lit in real life, are not lit in the sim. So, in reality, as you approach a station, it is clearly visible because it is lit. Buildings alongside the line have lights in the windows, and a lot of the roads are lit too - or if they're not, they have cars on them with lights. Real life train Drivers use all these things to orientate themselves in hours of darkness when unlit objects are not visible. The problem in TSW is that almost none of these things are lit, so it's pretty much impossible to know where you are. All you can do is drive entirely using the HUD, which to me is a bit pointless.

    I can imagine that putting realistic lights on every building, station, road etc is a major task, and it may be that TSW just don't see it as a priority. If that's the case, the only compromise I can suggest is that they simulate a cloudless night with a full moon, and bathe everything in a very gentle white light. That would make it driveable, even if it still wouldn't look particularly realistic with so little artificial lighting.

    Ultimately, night time in train driving sims is always tricky because in reality Drivers use the movement of the train and the distinctive sounds of trains passing over particular sections of track and particular bridges and passing objects to help orientate themselves. None of those things are available in a sim - you can't feel the movement of the train, and sounds are too generic to tell you where you are. As a result, a certain amount of compromise is necessary in balancing realism with allowing the Driver to see enough to know where they are.
     
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  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    That particular train you are driving doesn’t have very bright headlights. If you drive an American train, you will see the ground lit up.
    There are buildings lit up and street lights in TSW.
     
  4. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking about not being able to see anything out the window whilst driving at night, then let me give you an insight.

    Here in the UK, is it pretty much normal for the driver to see virtually nothing when driving at night.

    The headlights aren’t supposed to light up the track ahead, but more for other drivers to see your train.

    Drivers use a various set of techniques to know where they are. Such as counting signals, recognising certain points of scenery along the route, lights from a town/city for example.
     
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  5. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

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    ^
    Exactly this. Route knowledge is a vital part of any drivers job, and one which is thoroughly tested before they are let loose on a route. You wanted a realistic sim, there you go ;)
     
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  6. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    Thanks for the replies folks.

    I was sort of expecting those answers and yes, I know driving at night is difficult in reality. I was just asking for a little bit of customization on the lighting settings for TSW as right now, most of my screen is just pitch black. NOTHING is visible, even in the drivers' cabin.

    Also, while I know it approaches realism, it's still a game I'd like to customize. Even if it isn't fully realistic, I WANT to see a little bit at night.

    And for the folks saying those loco's don't have very bright headlights: yes I know.
    Here is a screenshot of CSX on sandpatch looking out the right side window:
    (Note: except cabin lights, ALL other lights are turned to bright and no engine.ini tweaks, all settings high/ultra).

    [​IMG]

    Now please tell me how this is 'fun' or 'realistic' in any way?

    I'd just like a few sliders for gamma, contrast and brightness so I can customize to my hearts content.

    Opinions?
     
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  7. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Active Member

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    Look out of your car side window with the interior lights on, in a dark location... the same result.

    I'm not being funny and know what you're getting at though. What is your view in a station or other lit place at night?
     
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  8. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    More or less the same as when looking outside.
    Some spots are well lit, like straight below a light pole.
    One meter next to it it's again super black. So you can see the platform with the light pole, but nothing else. Like a star in the night sky.
     
  9. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    Maybe not completely related, but the tunnel lighting on SandPatch is also not consistent.
    Below a picture: all the loco's and wagons are fully lit when inside a tunnel.
    This issue does not seem to occur on Rapid Transit or Ruhr Sieg Nord.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Active Member

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    The night time setting is very realistic in this game. Certainly not fun to drive at night, but here are some relevant examples showing how truly difficult it is to see anything at night.

    1. HST 125 (Cab view)


    2. CSX train at night (Railfan View)


    It's pitch dark for both routes. The problem is not with the engine, but in lamps/streetlit areas that should have light sources, they do not have them. In some areas it is prototypical, but in other areas it doesn't make sense like Westbury station in LIRR, which looks like a defunct station because of no light sources.
     
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  11. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    Hey LimitidEdiition,

    Thanks for the reply but, as I said above: yes, I KNOW it is that dark at night in real life.

    My point was that it's a game and I want to see A LITTLE BIT during nighttime and not have a completely black screen.
    Because that takes the fun out of it for me.
    Trying to be realistic is one thing, making your customer stare at a black screen instead of enjoying the sim is another.
     
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  12. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    As an addendum to your videos, and for the topic in general:

    I used to work on American trains on the night shift, using locomotives (including the one in my avatar). At night, if the top headlight is set to DIM, and ditch lights OFF, you'll get a cone of light of low intensity sweeping out from the locomotive at a small angle (probably 15°) for a length of about 10 feet. It's enough to see the loco from a distance, and it'll basically illuminate the platform (although there's separate lights for those) and bits of the cars the engine is coupled to.

    On BRIGHT, with ditch lights OFF, the cone will increase to 20° (FRA mandate 49 CFR § 229.125), but the intensity (illumination and color) will increase dramatically, as well as illuminate absolutely everything clearly (see details, easily tell base color of object) about 400 feet in the distance. Per the FRA spec, it'll illuminate (you can tell it's a person, but not really tell features) at 800 feet in the distance. The farthest I could make out objects from the locomotive headlight alone was about 1,000-1,200 feet away, but that was more of a "object here" type of sight, instead of identifying what it was.

    On BRIGHT, with the ditch lights ON, the cone will expand to about 25-30° (depends on ditch light placement) in front of the locomotive. The ditch lights will not aid the headlight in illuminating far objects, but it will drastically help at short (150 feet maximum) ranges to illuminate objects kind of out to the side. Like ditches, in its namesake. Also, if you're tying air hoses when the ditch lights are on, 1) you'll see everything, so that helps, 'cause otherwise you're fumbling in the dark, and 2) it's really, really warm in front of those.

    I'm also kind of hoping DTG expands on light color a bit with future routes. Older locomotives have halogen lights (warm white LED, basically, 3000K or so on the color spectrum), while newer locomotives use bright white LED's (about 5500K on the spectrum). One thing I miss are correctly-colored sodium-vapor lights (2200K), which are present at most industries, even in this age of LED's. DTG's not been too bad with how lights have been done in TSW, but after seeing other showcases of lighting in UE4, I feel like it can be better.

    Oh, and I should mention other lights on locomotives; on an EMD SD40-2, for instance, there's the porch lights, which are rendered in TSW. These tend to be basically any bulb that works, so they generally are warm white (3000K-3500K), or white LED's after rebuilding (5500K). They're bright enough to illuminate the porch in a cone about 5 feet out, in a 40° angle. The step lights use bulbs like the porch lights, and will illuminate the steps only. In TS2019, the step lights have a tendency to illuminate the ground. They don't really do that, or at least will have a small amount of light. There's also a ground light underneath the engineer's window, that helps to illuminate the track and area, so he can tell if he's moving at night. Those are also in the Whatever Bulb Was Cheapest When I Replaced It category, so those will also be 3000K-5500K. It's not uncommon to have a loco with mismatched porch, step, and ground lights.

    Sorry for the long post, but I figured some real-world information might be useful.
     
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  13. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    Another issue is that turning the cab light on at night lights up everything, including stuff outside the train. I'm no train driver but I'm pretty sure that outside visibility at night is supposed to be better with it off.
     
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  14. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The surrounding buildings need to have lit up windows at night. The sky itself needs a slight orange hue, instead of a view than an astronomer would dream of.
     
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  15. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit picky. I wouldn't call these "issues," more like feature requests.
     
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  16. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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  17. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    DTG definitely doesn't have time for this... the community might, though.
     
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  18. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    Oh, I know. I figure this is something for the people that have the enthusiasm for developing and polishing something that they truly like, instead of needing to meet deadlines and quotas.
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This happens a lot in TS1. Where the community does an outstanding job at scenery and fine detail.

    We obviously don’t have the pressure of deadlines to meet and such, hence the superior amount of detail that takes place.
     
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  20. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that depends on the type of building and the time of night, which you didn't specify. The manual doesn't mention the year in which this route is set, which would also effect night lighting.
    In general, though, I would not expect all or even most buildings to be lit up at night. Driving this route during the hours of darkness, I see lit signals, station areas, and the occasional house or other structure, but mostly dark is dark and ever more shall be so.
     
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  21. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that video is impressive, but only an empty landscape is present. What would happen if they added all of the graphics that make TSW what it is? Let's remember that this is a train simulator, not a landscape simulator. If you're watching the landscape, you're not using TSW as DTG intends. As a train driver, your role is, for the most part, driving a train and in this route, as in others, what a driver needs to see is illuminated: signals, station platforms, your control console and, if you wish, the cab. Concentrate on driving, and you'll do just fine.
     
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  22. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Active Member

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    I think the issue lies with DTG not having dynamically lit buildings at different points at night. Not necessarily blaming them because implementing something like this would require substantial work, but darkness at 9PM at night should not be equivalent to 2AM in the morning.
     
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  23. pennine465

    pennine465 Active Member

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    Note: This is the first and unique train sim and one of the best sims in the world!
    The night drive experience isn’t funny.This isn’t a game, this is a Sim so it only recreates the railfans’ experience.
    But DTG need add lights to houses,cars,(stars) and traffic lights.
     
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  24. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Dont get me wrong its not a massive issue for me, I would think its a job to implement this. This is just my suggestion as to why night scenarios arent quite true to life.
     
  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is one thing that gets on my nerves quite a bit. People think because it is a train simulation, it should be entirely just on trains. But notice the game is called Train Sim World.

    If you just want tracks, signalling and stations, then I’m afraid you’re playing the wrong game.

    This game also uses the powerful Unreal Engine 4, which is renowned for having some of the best scenery and landscapes avalible to build. Don’t forget we have the ability to freely walk around which is why areas need to be detailed and not empty with missing scenery.

    Routes are slowly becoming more and more detailed with more features slowing being added to them, don’t be that person who try and prevent them from making routes more detailed, just because you only focus about the driving aspect of the game.
     
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  26. HuggernautNL

    HuggernautNL New Member

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    Hello again to all!

    I think the topic slightly derailed (pun intended).
    Yes, those graphics are beautiful. But that won't happen overnight. DTG is improving steadily. Like others said, they are on a budget.


    Now, about the lighting.
    First of all, Juxen: thanks for your reply. Awesome background information!
    If I understand correctly: you are saying that the headlights should at least slightly illuminate the near front objects when put on bright a little further away (400 feet, around 130m?). Not the 0 meters visibility I have now.
    Also, when driving in real life, you say it is possible to make out some shapes and contoures of your surroundings much further away. Which means: not everything is the exact same black like on my monitor.

    Looking at the poll results: roughly 2/3 seem to agree that the lighting is off (again: pun intended).
    I really hope we can get some customization sliders in the settings (contrast, gamma, brightness and possibly even RGB?).
     
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  27. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I just wanted to quickly acknowledge your feedback on the lighting. I do have information that the lighting in North Trans-Pennine is being looked at, although I do not have any concrete details from the Dev about when it's getting improved.

    Thanks for providing your feedback on this. I do agree that lighting is off in some cases, especially in NTP when it can be almost pitch black dark during night service.
     
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  28. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    At about 1,000-1,200 feet (305-365 m), the headlights will illuminate objects a bit. Basically, you'll be able to see that an object is there, but won't be able to determine shape. Things like metal will give off a small reflection, and can help identify what the object is as you get closer. Things like unlit buildings, dirty (no shine) cars, etc., you'll see as something as "there".

    At 800 feet (244 m), as per the FRA spec, you can see an object as tall as a man and recognize it as a human. You will not be able to tell details much, as the light is only enough to alert you to a person standing on or near tracks. At this distance, this is when you can start noticing things like buildings, cars, and clutter as they actually are, but with no detail. (incidentally, this might help with LOD notes).

    At 400 feet (123 m), you can see and recognize all details that you could see in daylight. Obviously, shadow casting and headlight color will change how you see it, but you can recognize everything. From here until you get to the object, you retain full visibility. Except in that 20-30 foot (10 m or so) area where the headlight doesn't hit the ground directly in front of the loco.

    Here's a rather poor, old shot taken from Al Krug's photo journals, regarding the view from in the cab. That signal is about 400 feet away, and that tree on the right is about 250 feet away.
    [​IMG]

    And here's a shot that I got a few months ago on a CN freight local. Notice the three (step, ground, step) lights on the side of the engine, and the porch light just above the ditch lights. Also notice how the light falls on the ground around the loco.
    [​IMG]

    The step lights cast very little light on the ground, and only really serve to illuminate the steps. The ground light casts a fair amount of light underneath the cab, and you can kind of make out the porch light illuminating the porch a little. The number board lights don't illuminate anything except themselves. And you can see that there's about 3-4 feet of darkness in front of the snowplow, before the ditch lights start contributing. Also, don't take the color shown as absolute; my camera hates this kind of weather, so these colors are shifted a bit in real life. But the relative contrast between the step and ditch lights in color is about the same as real life.

    Again, this is all just for North American railroading.
     
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  29. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The issue I have with the lights in the TSW rolling stock, isnt the illumination from the drivers perspective. Its how far the light carries from a passing view. Tail lights dissappearing after 50 yrds or front markers of an oncoming train not being seen until the last moment.
     
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  30. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    Talking about lighting (although not really a problem with the lighting itself), AI drivers on GWE at least don't have the passenger lights on.
     
  31. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    They dont put the train markers on in WSR.
     
  32. geloxo

    geloxo Member

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    Also please fix the "intergalactic shield against fog" effect I reported in steam. As title says it looks as if I have a galactic shield around my train. Inside: no fog. Outside: death.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1543359565

    Somehow it´s related to lighting and shadows viewdistance as well as it produces a horrible effect on routes with open areas during dawn/dusk, as in the next screenshot:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1489026042

    Objects in the foreground are dark while the ones in the background are bright iluminated. This is not the effect of sun over mountains as you may think but just the viewdistance cap for light (a circle around current player/camera position as in the case of the fog above).

    Last but not least is the rain overbrightness while illuminated by loco lights. Rain should be a bit more transparent as you appear to have a galaxy in front of the cab during night. Even in daytime conditions the effect is horrible too.

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1482069153

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  33. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Member

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    Another example that I think is related to the "circle limit for light around player" problem, train light disappears just by rotating the camera. But of course, is not their bug (and I quote ;)).

    20190319002130_1.jpg

    20190319002134_1.jpg
     
  34. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    And no stations lights in winter/autumn/spring morning/evening like you can see on Trenomarcus pictures.
     
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  35. 37114

    37114 Active Member

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    You're correct but in my experience of night time cab rides of which there have been many it most certainly isn't pitch black as it is in TSW.
     
  36. geloxo

    geloxo Member

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    Currently it´s better to set clear snowy weather at night rides. It´s the only decent way to see something and don´t loose 1h of your life looking at a black screen.

    Cheers
     
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  37. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Member

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    Few more material about the lighting issues.

    20190326220901_1.jpg 20190326220907_1.jpg

    When looking from the front (camera 3) loco lights are correctly-ish rendered. When switching to "standard" camera light is simply gone! Same from inside the cab. Crazy black screen.

    Also a bonus off-topic screen of a rave party just outside a station in Rurh-siege route. Guess why the framerate drops randomly in many places...
    20190326234846_1.jpg 20190326234855_1.jpg
     
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  38. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    And potentially -- perhaps even probably -- unrealistic.
     
  39. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    The screenshot you've submitted is not "pitch black"! The gauges are glowing, the cab interior is dimly lit -- perhaps the result of a nearby light, track-side lights are visible ahead to the right, the sky is easily distinguishable from the land and trees below it. Again, this is decidedly not pitch black!
     
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  40. geloxo

    geloxo Member

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    The passengers party… hahahaha. They are fun. Yesterday I saw one guy doing his meditation routine on top of a station seat. And a girl on top of a canopy at the platform. Parkour, I guess...

    Cheers
     
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  41. 37114

    37114 Active Member

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    This is an odd issue. Barely any buildings on any routes have night time textures on them. They're in TS. Why not in TSW?
     
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  42. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Member

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    A quick tip for anyone who wants to enjoy night time schedules in TSW without relying on driving aids - as in real life, a layer of snow on the ground does wonders for visibility!
     
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