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[poll] Yet Another "thoughts On [new Route]" Thread - To Buy Or Not To Buy?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by raildan, Feb 15, 2019.

?

Are you planning on buying this route?

Poll closed Feb 21, 2019.
  1. Yes, I (am going to / have already) preordered it.

    53 vote(s)
    55.2%
  2. Yes, but I'll wait for a sale where it costs less than the preorder discount.

    12 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. I'll wait until release and then I'll decide.

    15 vote(s)
    15.6%
  4. No.

    16 vote(s)
    16.7%
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  1. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    So, the Main-Spessart Bahn... you read the title, you know what this post is.

    I really am torn on whether to buy this route or not.

    I'm sure we've all heard the complaints by now- the route's too short and it reuses most of its rolling stock (yes, the Doppelstock is *slightly* different, but by no means a different experience). Even the one truly new locomotive, the BR 146, is fairly similar to the existing BR 185 (although I'm sure it drives differently, so I'm ok with it).

    Overall, the route doesn't seem new. It just feels too similar to RSN.

    If we ignore that RSN exists and tolerate length (we accepted GWE, didn't we?), then the route is great, though! It looks like a very detailed route, with challenging grades and nice scenery. The PIS looks great, and will be an excellent and welcome addition, even though the platform signs aren't included. The route appears to have road traffic, which is great! I am also very interested in driving a banking locomotive- that is very unique, and I can't think of any route in either sim where you could do this. The rolling stock selection (again, ignoring RSN) could definitely be better, but it is... enough. Both passenger and freight are represented, with 3 driving cabs to choose from. The freight car/wagon selection looks nice, too. That autorack looks neat.

    But... at the same time, it's hard to ignore RSN when you've paid for it already.

    Ultimately, I think it's a good route. There is nothing wrong with the route itself, exceptmaybe the length, but I can deal with that. But I'm not sure if it's good enough to justify its price, especially considering the rolling stock selection.

    If this route was cheaper, perhaps with WSR pricing, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. But now I'm torn on whether this route is really worth it or not. What do you guys think?
     
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  2. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    I will say that I hadn't read the studio update when I wrote this, and it is definitely pushing towards buying this. The banking operation DOES look interesting, and there are quite a bit of interesting diesel switching if the docks at Aschaffenburg are included. That really hints at the new loco DLC being the DB BR 294, which I would have bought for RSN anyway. It would work great on this route, too...
     
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  3. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    The studio update also states that the cars will be moving! :D
     
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  4. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but that wasn't new news... I even mentioned it in the OP. You can see it in the 3rd picture in the announcement and, reportedly, the video on steam.

    Remembering how much I enjoy LIRR and other routes some people have problems with... I have decided that yes, I will buy this route. I'm still curious as to other people's opinions, though, and I'm definitely keeping the poll open.
     
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  5. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    My issue is the price.

    When you make a purchase you're mostly reimbursing the developer for the work which went into developing the DLC, thus the price should roughly reflect that, but MSB clearly had less work put into it than RSN. The majority of the stock is from RSN, the route is shorter than RSN and it uses many of the same scenic assets as RSN. So why are DTG charging the same price for it as RSN?

    What's worse is that it sounds like they have a German locomotive DLC waiting in the wings, which they'll no doubt sell for an additional £11.99. For MSB to have a similar value to RSN they should have included this additional locomotive with MSB, instead of holding it back for a seperate DLC.

    It just feels like DTG are trying to rip us off and I don't want to encourage that behaviour by opening my wallet.
     
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  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    This route has reworked moving cars, animated cargo loaders. Those took time to do in a performance friendly way.
     
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  7. PlatChap

    PlatChap Well-Known Member

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    It's worth it for me imo. I have been with this game since the beginning so I feel a connection to it and want to support it's development. Despite the flaws and frustration, I find enjoyment in this game and believe I always will to some extent. I'm happy to see progress in the form of the PIS being applied to this route as well as progress towards immersion factors in the routes such as traffic and these loading cranes. I'm super interested to see how the banking operations are going to play.

    I'm conflicted on the rolling stock and was admittedly disappointed when I saw the same passenger cars being used. I put pictures of the 185 and 146 side by side and I couldn't personally tell the difference. I am certain they have their unique differences and I'll have to see how that translates into the gameplay experience for someone with little technical knowledge of these locomotives. Out of everything, the autoracks intrigue me the most! The tankers also look really nice as well.

    Overall, I'm looking forward to playing this route.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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  8. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite interested in how this DLC sells. Of all the DLC it offers the least value for money in terms of new content per £. What people should realise when buy this is that they're setting a new standard for what's acceptable in a DLC.

    Buy purchasing this DLC you're saying to DTG that:
    • You're happy for a DLC to have 30%-40% old content whilst maintaining the £24.99 price point.
    • You're happy for a DLC with rollingstock directly applicable to a previous route not to be supplied with any scenarios for the previous route.
    • You're happy to continue without the Editor and will gladly purchase rollingstock twice to use it on multiple routes.
    If this DLC is a success, this will become the new standard for TSW content. DTG are dropping the bar and testing the waters to see just how much they can increase their profit margin on DLC.
     
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  9. davejc64

    davejc64 Active Member

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    I am inclined to wait until the editor is released before buying anymore DLC in order that the DLC is of more use and therefore actually worth the money.
     
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  10. MCGermanyFan

    MCGermanyFan Well-Known Member

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    The rolling stock is not 100% the same...yes, the changes to the dostos are subtle, but they still had to be done, it's not just a case of "copy & paste", they needed the remodel the interior, for example.
     
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  11. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I never said anything to the contrary. You're aguing against a point I never made whilst ignoring the one I did.

    I estimate 30%-40% of the MSB DLC is old content, i.e. the majority of the wagons, one of the locomotives, 80% of the work on the coaches, 60-70% of the scenic assets etc, combine this with the MSB route being about 16% shorter than RSN and I arrived at the reasonable conclusion that MSB has less original content than RSN.

    Clearly the resources put into MSB were less than RSN, so why are they the same price or why is there no discount for RSN owners? That is my point and as of yet nobody has explained why this is the case.
     
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  12. Piussi

    Piussi Well-Known Member

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    How many routes do you have in TS with the same rolling stock? Its not a new sales model from DTG. Its been there for years. But if they do the same in TSW ist suddenly ripping off?
     
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  13. Piussi

    Piussi Well-Known Member

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    • You get a new route. Yes there are probably recycled assets but hey thats always going to happen right..
    • You get a new loco 146
    • You will get some new freight cars
    • Destinations display what they had to get implented
    • AI that will push you up the hill that you never had before that cost work to.
    You will get more from this route then you think. And who says the new loco dlc is for germany? Ed fisk or how is he called is working on it i'm pretty sure its for the UK. Freight for NTP maybe?
     
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  14. Th3Fl4mIng

    Th3Fl4mIng Member

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    I can't stand your crap anymore, besides what you're doing is getting close to spamming. In how many threads have you posted pretty much the same? Anyway, let's start: "setting a new standard for what's acceptable in a DLC" - yes, namely PIS - train destination displays & moving cars, animated machinery on yards. Do you guys out there want to support that?

    "old content" - Would you rather not be getting it ? It has absolutely nothing to do with RSN. The 185 is in fact in use there, just as in big parts of germany overall. And I'm sure it will be featured in future upcoming contents too, will you start a rant about it everytime when that happens? 146 - same story, most used loco for hauling passenger trains in germany. It is indeed quite similar to the 185, has it been less work for the devs? perhaps - but that work went into other areas just as important I mentioned at the beginning.
    The locos we're getting in TSW overall are not getting the credit they should by the way. Most of them are at vR level if not even higher. Their recreation is lightyears ahead of most TS20xx locos. That for example is one standard the game has already set.

    "[...]DLC with rollingstock directly applicable to a previous route [...]" that is simply wrong, the 146 has never been used between Hagen and Siegen (Finnentrop) -neither were the dostos but atleast the 143 was. In case you meant the freight cars, you can do that once the editor is out.
    The idea behind TSW is that once there is more content/rolling stock that fits to other routes it will automatically substitute it in. As seen in NEC: NY.

    "You're happy to continue without the Editor[...]" yeah, whatever man. What else is there to say else than it's coming, been shown already too.


    You're actually complaining that they are trying to make germany look like real germany when you are complaining that scenic assets are old content. They are getting reused on all routes in the same country if the environment allows it. What's the problem there? MSB does have its environmental similarities with RSN.

    Unfortunately you missed some facts in your glorious, thoroughly thought conclusion.
     
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  15. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    That's what's known as a 'Whataboutism'. I've never even mentioned TS DLCs, nor commented on whether or not they are a rip off.
     
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  16. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    CSX Heavy Haul has moving cars and as well as animated loading equipment at the quarry, NTP also has destination blinds which function in the same way as the PIS in MSB. So actually these 'new features' have been featured in previous DLC and are not actually new.

    Let's say I've already purchased the 185 in RSN and MSB, would I be critical about paying for it a third time in the next German DLC? Yes, obviously. I agree that the game is a nice looking one, I never said anything to the contrary.

    So the car transporter wagon will be substituted into the freight trains and yards on RSN will it? The freight cars for the GP40-2 addon are substituted into the previous American DLC, so why not have this same feature with RSN/MSB?

    With regards to the Editor, sure I can use the Editor once it's out, but it was coming out in 2017, then it was coming out in 2018, but sure, it's definitely 100% coming in 2019, for sure, 100%, no doubt, DTG never misses a target...


    Exactly, it's coming, or it was coming in 2017, it was also coming in 2018, it never actually came though. But 2019's target is different, for reasons no one knows, but 2019 is definitely different to the 2017 and 2018 targets. I'll believe it when I see it.

    No, I'm complaining that I have to pay for scenic assets which were used in the last German DLC, assets for which the cost of creation has been met with a surplus (I have my sources, and I know DTG very well out of RSN). I'm happy paying for the new assets, but judging by the screenshots the majority of the scenic assets are being reused from RSN, which is fine, just don't charge as much in the final product or give people who own RSN a little discount.

    I'm glad you thought my conclusion was 'glorious'. :cool:
     
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  17. Piussi

    Piussi Well-Known Member

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    What do you expect they do the same for TS. And you think they will do it different for TSW thats you being delusional. You are saying that if you buy this it will tell DTG they can do anything.. But they sall there products for 10 years like this. Dont do like its something new to rip you off.
     
  18. Bacon_BMW

    Bacon_BMW Member

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    I'm buying simply because I don't already have RSN.
     
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  19. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to chat extreme measures or anything, but yeah, the routes are worth so much more with an editor. Only reason I still buy DLC is that I think DTG knows the editor is necessary and is legitimately working hard on it. However, if you're less confident in that (DTG can certainly be... well... hard to predict, let's say), this option makes perfect sense.

    Very good point- they've been doing this for years and people are mostly fine with it.If it isn't strictly necessary to make a new loco, they won't. Saves a bunch if time and resources that they can use either detailing the route, fixing bugs, working on other content or just pushing it out sooner.

    The main value for a route, I'm beginning to think, is the route itself and what it has to offer. This route, despite its length, has plenty to offer. I still think it could stand to be a bit less expensive, but... not bu that much.

    I still think it will be a German loco as Dmitri mentioned a loco DLC that will be playable on RSN and MSB. Besides, they could be following the US-UK-DE pattern for locomotives as well. Looking at the crazy amount of diesel sidings on both routes, there has to be something at some point...
     
  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    No-one is being forced to purchase it so how is it a rip-off? I have pre-ordered, I know what I am getting and don't feel ripped off. Really some people are so desperate to criticise every little thing they can. I am just waiting for "the editor isn't coming" sentence to top it all off!
     
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  21. Piussi

    Piussi Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they are working on more then one Loco DLC.
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Spent two hours downloading third party content for TS1 this morning. Can't play any of the included scenarios because I haven't got £300 worth of 2nd party AP content.
    The editor will cause as many issues for more people than it solves
     
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  23. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's what it sounded like in the studio update. We know of at least 2 - NTP Freight, German probably a switcher. I just thought they'd space them out a bit, so in the "coming weeks" we we'd only see one. Could still be NTP first, there is no real way of knowing. Heck, it could even be something else out of nowhere.

    Then again, maybe both, if not more than that, are coming soon. I plan on buying both, anyways, so that's not much of a problem, lol.
     
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  24. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    That’s a user problem then, rather than a problem with the editor itself.

    It’s nothing new, as the workshop scenarios have been around for years. It’s your choice whether you want to download it or not.

    I’m all for more realistic scenarios which contain a realistic amount of AI traffic. Obviously that requires more content but that’s a personal preference.
     
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  25. Bacon_BMW

    Bacon_BMW Member

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    I just realized RSN was 40% off in the Xbox store...
    Now I'm not going to buy it until it comes on sale.
     
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  26. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    MOVING CARS? Wow! Thats revolutionary! DTG deserves a reward after that one for sure

    I wonder do you eat and drink like normal people or did you get programmed to just live and breathe DTG?
     
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  27. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said it was revolutionary, just that it's nice to see it return! You yourself complained about this feature being removed, so why is it bad to be glad that it's returned?
     
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  28. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    Excited for it to return to future DLC's who all cost 24,99 - 29,99 Euro? The flaw in that one isnt clear to you?
     
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  29. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    They said they're probably going to work on putting it back in older routes, calm down! Testing new systems out in a new route makes more sense than immediately upgrading other routes anyway, imagine if it's buggy and now you've made all your older routes worse instead of better, for example!
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Another one who cannot accept that some people enjoy TSW, obviously it isn't perfect but it is relatively early days and has great potential. There are plenty who get plenty of enjoyment out of it despite some shortcomings and shouldn't be criticised for that!
     
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  31. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    I think the results of the poll say quite a lot :)

    They say that most people are happy, but there is certainly some feedback to be taken into account and things to perhaps be reconsidered for the future DLC's.
     
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  32. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    When you take into account the fact that there will be a good portion of people who won't buy it because it's German and they only buy US or UK content, the numbers are extremely high in favour of purchasing this DLC.

    The last poll on a whether people would purchase a DLC, another German route (RSN), showed that the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't purchase it. I would post a link to the poll but the previous community manager deleted it, after all the result was quite embrassing for DTG.

    So how has DTG managed to completely reverse the result of the poll? What's MSB got that RSN hasn't? Why did the overwhelming majority of respondents to the RSN poll say they wouldn't buy it, but the overwhelming majority of respondents to the MSB poll say they would buy it?

    Interesting...
     
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  33. TrainSim-Dmitri

    TrainSim-Dmitri Staff Member

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    It is up to the players themselves to come forward and say why they think this DLC is worthwhile for them, and many already did. It is apparent to me that many players are looking forward to it. Nevertheless, as I said, we acknowledge your feedback and the feedback of others who in some way criticized this announcement, be it for the lack of content or for a high price tag, or anything else. This is something we are definitely taking on board for the future, and we are very keen to hear what our players will have to say when Main - Spessart Bahn is actually released, as this is the only thing that really matters.

    I really don't want to say this, however, if you are implying that we have in some way meddled with the results of the poll, I would seriously encourage you to reconsider whether you would like to further expand on this assumption, as I am not going to put up with blatant lies on this forum. You can consider this as an informal warning to you.
     
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  34. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your diplomacy Dmitri, but I'm not that silly; I aim to comply with the forum's T&Cs in all my discourse here. However, I can give you example of DTG misleading, some may say lying to, customers to sell their DLC. I'll quote the Rapid Transit store page:

    So the customer can expect to master Deutsche Bahn's unique signalling system, this is of course the signalling system of which PZB is a major part of. Now to quote Matt Pedlesden when asked whether the PZB will be fixed on Rapid Transit:

    So DTG admit that the signalling on RT needs fixing, but it's not going to be fixed soon and yet they haven't updated their store page to reflect this. Therefor, one cannot 'master Deutsche Bahn's unique signalling system' because it's broken, so why are they still using this a selling point and why does the Steam store page fail to acknowlege the broken PZB?

    In my experience of commerce the above would be considered a breach of the The Trade Descriptions Act in the UK.

    This is before we get to certain products which have been 'on sale' more often than they haven't; When the duration of the sale exceeds the duration of the product being at the reference price, some may do more than frown upon it.

    There's also the package where the individual DLC prices are used to indicate a saving, yet you can't buy all the DLC individually. Some may say that's sailing close to the wind.

    I'll leave that for you to feedback to DTG HQ as they don't seem to listen to me, maybe they'll finally see the error of their ways and update the RT Steam Store Page.
     
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  35. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    The angry mob is simply looking the other way and probably doesn't even know this is being released since the news isn't even a few days old. If memory serves the last poll came out quite a bit later on the germination cycle so I'm not sure the sample sizes are consistent. Certainly not consistent enough for someone to come in and say "the results say quite a lot."

    The news was posted Thursday.

    It's Saturday.

    News travels much slower to those who aren't interested...

    Also worth pointing out that 40 people may have said yes- but 30 said "not yes." People saying "I'm going to see if it sucks first" or "I'm going to buy it when it comes at a deep discount" aren't what I would be budgeting the implied success of the title on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  36. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    *I'm not quoting that, way too long*

    Since when are companies required to actively market flaws in their products?! That line would only be false advertising if it wasn't included at all! You can still master a flawed representation of it, arguably.

    Not to mention how completely irrelevant that is. Ok, so they don't actively advertise a bug in one of their routes- how the heck is that evidence of them messing with a poll?!

    DTG is far from perfect, I'll agree with you there, but you're just trying to accuse DTG of anything and everything you can!
     
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  37. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    I think DD is just building on a general theme... not talking specifically about DTG meddling in a forum poll.
     
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  38. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    You can't master a flawed representation of it. Read the manual and then try applying that in game, it doesn't work. Unless you come to this forum and ask one of the experts on PZB to explain it what way it's broken and how to compensate, you've got no chance of mastering even the flawed system.

    Relevant section of the Trade Descriptions Act:
    Based on the RT Steam Store page alone, would a reasonable person come away with the conclusion that the signalling system could be mastered through playing this game? The answer in my opinion is 'yes' and that's where the issue is.

    I'm not an expert on law, but I've done sufficient contract law in the course of my professional career to at least attempt to break it down legally:

    The way it's worded suggests that it works sufficiently for it to be 'mastered'. 'Master' is defined as 'acquire complete knowledge or skill in (a subject, technique, or art)'. It's not possible to 'master' the signalling because the PZB is broken. So using being able to 'master' the signalling as a selling point is likely to mislead some people into buying the DLC thinking they can in fact 'master' the signalling. It's that misleading of people which is likely in breach of the Trade Descriptions Act.

    Still advertising the 'mastering' of the signalling system as a selling point whilst knowing the product has a flaw, a flaw which DTG have acknowleged, and at the same time said they have no plans to fix, is not just misleading people, it's knowingly misleading people. If they were found in breach of the Trade Descriptions Act they would face a hefty fine, especially as it's shown they are aware of the issue and have decided not to fix it, whilst at the same time deciding to continue selling the product using the ability to 'master' the signalling.

    All this could be avoided if they removed the bit about mastering DB's unique signalling system, and then applied an update to the manual explaining that due to limitations at the time it was created the PZB doesn't function correctly.
     
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  39. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    Just like the working PZB or the fixed signalling. All things they will PROBABLY do in the future as long as you people keep on buying their DLC's. Some months and it will be a year since they have announced that they will fix RT in the future and the fixes are just right around the corner, right?... right??
    Rather making fun of you guys who take a feature thats been in the game before as a reason to buy the future DLC again. Well, maybe ill have to be thankful to you people for blindly using your pocket money from your parents to buy DLC after DLC without rational thinking. Maybe DTG will use 0,2% of the revenue to rework the map on the 9 key into something useful in the next 10 years! ....Nevermind, they would probably just annouce and advertise it as a feature for a new DLC and explain how hard it is to implement it to older DLC's
     
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  40. Fabrizio520

    Fabrizio520 Guest

    Note that the more the posts increase and more the percentage of those who are thinking of buying immediately the new path decreases ...
     
  41. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Here are my opinion to the new route.
    First I was a bit shocked to see the new route is only 52km long because the speed on it is much higher then on RSN and you will be from Aschaffenburg to Gemünden pretty fast.
    And then it uses the BR185 from RSN and a BR146 wich is just a modified BR185 and then again dostos we allready have.

    But then I did read on the studio update we get the new destination displays and moving cars, wich I think is pretty important for this route as the track goes a long distance side by side with the road.
    On the studio update they also showed they modelled the port area and the branch going to it, it's diesel only but I am sure we will get a diesel shunter DLC soon for this route. So the route is 52km electrified and 8km additional route to the port, wich makes exactly 60km as RSN.
    Then we saw the dovetail live article and the trailer video for this route featuring banking locos (I don't know if this just in scenarios or in service mode too) this is a pretty nice thing and I can't wait to see it for my self and push trains up the hill.

    So I am pretty sure I do like this new route as much as RSN, if then a diesel shunter (BR294!!!! hopefully) will be released for it it's maybe even more fun then RSN, specially to deal with the high grades.

    I just hope the new route keep the RSN level quality or maybe even rises the bar a bit, but the moving cars and destination displays will for sure add a lot of realism to it.

    So for the 22€ (with preorder discount) wich i think is much to less for the work you have invest in a route it's a buy for me.
    With the most assets for UK, US and German routes created I hope DTG can invest more time for new features like a better 2d map and we see improvements with every new DLC and maybe reworked old DLC.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  42. RommieG

    RommieG New Member

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    In the studio update, they indicated that banking will be present in both scenarios and service mode.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I earn my own money thank you very much and I don't need your approval. Maybe when you grow up your spelling and grammar will improve!
     
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  44. Gascan

    Gascan Active Member

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    Grammar and spelling are such 90s things to concern yourself with. Your obtuse and corrective disposition offends me. Reported.

    Welcome to today.
     
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  45. Ninetofive925

    Ninetofive925 Well-Known Member

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    Given the toxicity here, i think this will be useful for further scrolling:
    [​IMG]

    No need to thank me. I'm leaving this thread now.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If people are going to be insulting and condescending then they should expect to get the same in return, and the post I responded to offended me. However I wouldn't bother reporting it as people can express their views how they like. If you feel you need to report it from your ivory tower then feel free, I won't loose any sleep over it!
     
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  47. John Doe

    John Doe New Member

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    Not a serious conclusion. The majority of Russians have voted for Putin, the majority of U.S. citizens for Trump.
     
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  48. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    DTG didn't tamper with the results. There is absolutely no reason to believe they messed with the poll unless you just want to assume they're always as evil as possible. As bad as their marketing can be sometimes, they never go to those extremes. Stop making up this *FAMILY FRIENDLY SUBSTITUTE*!

    Also, please, please, PLEASE don't bring politics into this- this thread has gotten way too toxic already.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  49. pennine465

    pennine465 Active Member

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    Please no Trump or Putin here!
     
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  50. pennine465

    pennine465 Active Member

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    This Route:
    Quality-10/10
    Realism-10/10
    Price-8,5/10
    Fun-10/10
    Evolution from RSN: 150 %
     
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