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Post A Video Of Your Train Driving And I’ll Comment On It

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Olaf the Snowman, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Post a video of any part of your train driving on TSW and I’ll give you tips to improve your handling skills and make it more realistic. It be could be any part of train driving:
    • Braking technique for stations
    • Braking technique approaching red signal or buffer stops
    • Acceleration technique from stations
    • Coupling or uncoupling
    • Encountering cautionary aspects
    • Low adhesion conditions
    • Mobilising/demobilising a cab
    • Freight- not an expert
    • Braking technique for US freight
    Not an expert on freight but I’ve got the general idea and I’m sure others can help :)
     
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  2. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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  3. diamondderp

    diamondderp Well-Known Member

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  4. JJTimothy

    JJTimothy Well-Known Member

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    Does this count?
     
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  5. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    1. Beginning your journey from a stand at the station, you went straight to max power. No reason why you can’t go into full power pretty quickly (around 10mph, for example) but wouldn’t advise it straight away on an EMU particularly when it’s raining so you’ll get wheelslip.
    2. Your approach to the buffer stops was a bit quick which is why you then threw in a lot of brake and then you went to the opposite extreme of crawling for the last 10 yards or so. A good guide to follow is make sure you’re doing no more than 10 mph (16kph) 2 coach lengths away from buffer stops and no more than 5mph (8kph) one coach length away from buffer stops. When approaching buffer stop platforms or red signals, you need to be defensive and ideally use no more than initial braking for a nice, gentle braking curve throughout. You need to control the train, not let the train control you. I would have applied a small amount of brake force as you’re entering the start of the platform and left it there until you’ve come down to a manageable speed (e.g. 12-15mph). And that’s without even considering low adhesion conditions because of the rain.
    You certainly like using the horn :)

    1. Looking through the first video and end of the third video, you’re ‘dumping’ the unit. Let’s take 1:32:00 from the third video where you’re approaching Marylebone. Your approach is absolutely fine where you put it into step 2 and bring the train down to 19kph. But then you release the brakes. And then you ‘dump’ the unit by finishing in a very high brake force. You want a nice and consistent braking force and had you put it into step 1 instead of fully releasing the brakes, it would have been a much better approach. Similarly with the German train or any variable brake train, if you’re using 80% brake for example and then release it completely for a few seconds, then put it back to 80% again... you have to ask yourself, who don’t you just partially release it to say, 50% and keep it nice and consistent throughout. Don’t use it like an on and off switch and don’t ‘fan’ the brake unnecessarily. Try to make small adjustments to the brake not big ones.
    2. In the first video, your approach to stations is too quick. You’re hitting 150m stations at 45mph which is way too quick and is the reason why you had to use max braking. I would advise hitting 150m stations at about 25/30mph. Even 300m platforms, 45mph is on the aggressive side.
    3. Following on from point 2, you’re using too much brake. This is obviously as a consequence of approaching stations too quickly. On the German unit or variable brake units in general, if you’re using any more than 60% brake, you’re braking way too hard. You should be able to comfortably stop using 30-50% brake also referred to as serviceable braking. On the underground train, you shouldn’t have to use any more than step 2. You can still run to schedule comfortably by not using not more than step 2 brake. In fact, there’s no reason why you can’t do most if not all your braking in step 1.
    4. Your final impact should be nice as possible for passengers. So always try to bring the brake back to step 1 just before you come to a stop. On a variable brake train, that would be about 20-30% brake. On the Marylebone station stop, for example, you would have had passengers being thrown on the final impact. This is also what I mean by ‘dumping’ the unit.

    I’ve attached a couple of videos of station stops as it’s far easier to show than describe. To reiterate: brake smoothly and consistently, and finish with a nice impact ideally with minimum brake.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm8Lj1m2Yqs&feature=youtu.be
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQnWuVGcLvU&feature=youtu.be

    Not much to say apart from what a great day out! :)
     
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  6. diamondderp

    diamondderp Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tips. I have to say; I like to 'dump' the unit. But I'm already trying to brake more gently on the Dostos and freight.
     
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  7. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I do :)
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for this initiative, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into it.



    This is my video with the Class 395 on SE HS, of course I wouldn't expect you to watch all of it.

    I did overshot the stopping point at Strood and Stratforf (by 5~10yds) but stayed in between the 2yd margin everywhere else.

    Two things, one is that some near undershoots are caused by the brakes on the 375, Step 1 is much weaker than than initial application on the 395 so sometimes that causes overshoots with the 375 and undershoots with the 395 (as I just go by muscle memory).

    Only overspeeding instance was after Gravesend, went 31 in a 30 limit (because I was watching the beautiful 395 from the outside).

    Also a bit of a panic moment at Ebbsfleet caused by fat fingers (wanted to press D-pad up to set the reverser to forwards and closed the doors with D-pad right...)

    Sorry there is no audio, because I forgot to mute my mic, and hearing me talking to my friends is probabily the last thing you want to hear.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  9. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    No problem, it’s nice to know it’s appreciated. :)

    Very impressed with the station stops, some of them being almost textbook! E.g. 15:25 station stop but there were lots of very good stops. Smooth, consistent braking with a nice finishing impact. As you’ve worked out, hitting stations about 35mph with brakes in 50% work nicely.

    The only station I’d be critical on would be the last one approaching the buffer stops at St Pancras. It wasn’t bad and you only used initial braking but it was still too fast. You were doing about 20mph 2 coach lengths away and 10mph 1 coach length away from buffer stops. You should half that. If TPWS grids were functioning correctly, you would have been tripped by them which would have been a serious operating incident. The grids approx 2 coach lengths away are set at 10mph (16kph) so you must be doing under 10mph as you pass them and reducing that to 5mph (8kph) one coach length away. So what I would have done is, put it into initial braking perhaps as you go level with the front of the train on other platform instead of halfway done the platform like you did. If it was a normal station, it would have been perfect but it was a bit too fast approaching buffer stops.

    Station stop at 20:00 minutes was again a very nice station stop apart from that you were potentially approaching a red signal. You received 2 yellows, 1 yellow but didn’t touch the brake at all and approached the station like you were running on greens. I wouldn’t be going past a single yellow at more than 40mph perhaps 50mph if sections are long. Fortunately, it was a green signal in the end not red but should have been prepared for a red. If it’s a red signal at the end of a platform, I wouldn’t hit the station platform at anymore than 25/30mph reducing that to 20mph at the AWS magnet (200 yards away). The approach should be more cautious. But as I say, had you not been encountering cautionary aspects, the stop would have been perfect. If you want to get more practice, maybe use scenario planner to have a train run right in front of you so you can encounter cautionary aspects.


    The good thing about U.K. routes is that not only can I give you general feedback in braking/acceleration technique, I can also give feedback on operating procedures.
    1. When you come to a stand at stations, you released doors straight away. You must secure the train by putting controller into Full service, reverser into Neutral, if appropriate set DRA and then release doors. The reason for this is to prevent wrong side door release as it gives you a few seconds of thinking time. I’m not sure if you’ve seen my post on what the ‘3 step check’ means on another thread which gives you a bit more information.
    2. Running brake test. I’ve written about it in more detail which I’ve added at the bottom. Simply put, you need to test the brakes near the start of the journey. So when you got to 50mph, for example, put the train into initial braking and reduce speed to 40mph. Then continue with your journey as normal. First thing any manager will look for when they do a ‘download’ of your train and the data recorder can automatically detect whether you’ve done one or not. If you haven’t, it will flag up automatically. (I did watch the first few mins in x2 speed to see if you did but the first time you touched the brakes was approaching the next station stop :))
    3. Just a reminder that approaching red signals, company instructions stipulate that you must be doing no more than 20mph 200 yards away from the red signal. Usually 200 yards is the AWS magnet but not always as some magnets particularly on SEHS are a lot closer then 200 yards so be careful.
    Generally, I am very impressed. You braking technique is excellent and the good thing is because you’ve mastered this, you can pretty much operate any modern unit well. E.g. driving Class 395 is very similar to M7 on LIRR or the German units, etc... Variable brake can be difficult because people can get themselves in a tangle as they apply some brake randomly and see what happens.
    But you need to have parameters like you have done- using 50% brake or initial brake, etc...

    Re. Speeding. Speeding by 1mph is not a problem. Doing a 31mph in a 30mph is fine as long as you correct it as soon as you can.
    Re. Overrunning Strood. Overrunning the stop board is not an issue. As long as it’s not a precision stop board or a stop board where there is very little margin for error, there is no problem at all. Likewise, stopping short slightly is fine.


     
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  10. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much! I didn't expect that.

    For the signals knowing how the timetable is for SE HS, If I know the red signal is at the end of the station I just stop normally, but I will follow the operating procedures more closely now that I know them in detail, thanks.

    About securing the train, I always put the 377 into notch 3 (but never put the reverser in neutral) because that was described in the ECW manual, but not knowing better I did nothing in particular for the 395.
    Edit: I would also use DRA if it was binded to a key but pressing it in cab is a bit too annoying to do every time...

    Thanks for the tips approachning St.P I didn't know the TPWS was so restrictive, I'll keep that in mind, thanks :)

    About everything else thanks for going so in depth about all the given information, as someone that tries to do things as accurately to real life as possible is all great information and I'll try to incorporate it as much as possible into my gameplay. Again, this is all very appreciated, thank you very much :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  11. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware that I overshot a few signals at stations haha. I appreciate this.
     
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  12. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Mr heff
    Green- positives

    Red- to work on
    Black- general comments

    Braking technique for the most part was good and definitely improved throughout the video. Your first few station stops, you kept on releasing the brakes halfway down the platform even though you were still doing a considerable speed which meant you ended up dumping the unit and finishing very harshly. E.g. station stop at 7:48, 12:30, you released the brakes just under 20mph with only 100ish yards to go which is why you ended having to use step 3 and dump the unit. (I’m not sure if it’s because you weren’t sure where the stop board was?)
    But I think you realised this yourself because you stopped doing this later on in the video. E.g. your station stops at 23:00, 28:00 were a lot better. All your other braking was generally very good especially from high speed for stations and hitting most stations at 35mph which is a sensible speed. It’s just the last 100 yards or so just be careful not to release the brakes if you’re still doing a considerable speed.
    As a guide, if you’re doing 35mph at the start of the platform, you’ll need to use step 2 initially (perhaps bring it down to 20mph) and then you can bring it back to step 1 for a nice stop. If you hit the station at 25/30mph, you only probably need step 1.

    Approaching the red at Faversham was good. You clearly made a conscious effort to be more defensive hitting the station at 25mph and doing 20mph at AWS magnet. And you used the DRA appropriately which was good to see. Just a reminder that if you are going to use the AWS magnet as a guide for the “15mph/20mph 200 yards away from red” rule, be cautious that some magnets are a lot closer than 200yards especially on the SEHS route.

    You used the horn correctly at whistle boards.

    The flashing yellows at 15:50: Upon sighting the single yellow you wacked it open as you saw it being a 60mph junction. And the next signal was on a bend so very easy opportunity for a mis-read. I would have either left it at 30 or maybe taken it up to 40mph max. Even though you think you can see your next signal being green, I would have waited till I had a clear line of sight of it maybe even waiting till you get to the magnet before increasing speed. It’s an extremely easy SPAD trap and a manager wouldn’t be impressed especially if it’s a new driver. Defensive driving is heavily stressed upon now particularly for new drivers and I didn’t feel you gave that high risk signal the respect it deserves.

    I’d also give the same advice about doing a running brake test at the start of the journey as well as securing the train before releasing doors. Geth_2234, you may want to look at this before you do your video:


    It would be good to see if you or anyone else uses scenario planner where you put a freight train, for example, in front of you so you’re encountering cautionary aspects throughout the journey. That’s when you’re really being tested constantly running on single yellow, double yellow, single yellow, red, single yellow, red, single yellow, single yellow, double yellow, single yellow, red, single yellow, etc... That also brings the opportunities for start on yellow SPADs, start against SPADs, misreads/crossreads, chasing signals, etc... While your approach to Faversham and your station stops in general were good, that is very simple and you can do that with your mind in autopilot mode. You certainly haven’t been tested yet :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  13. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much, I appreciate the time you put into this. You're right, I automatically assume signals are going to be green in TSW so I've done a few SPADs over time. I'll definitely take the braking advice on board (apparently I think the train stops on a dime haha) thank you so much again.
     
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  14. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Active Member

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    I’ve started easy and also gone with the 465, I mite do a run with the 395 sometime aswell so I can compare which one I'm better at driving. Halfway through I actually realised I forgot to do my break test.

     
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  15. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think I'll drop this here and let you destroy me! Minimal HUD usage being used.

    Please note train is not secured with DRA as most signals in the video where green. Reverser not put to neutral due to pulling away in 3rd person camera a lot of the time. ;)

     
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  16. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Geth_2234

    PBC= Power brake controller
    Green= Positives
    Red= To work on
    Black= General comments


    Braking technique

    Braking was generally good but again like Mr Heff, it’s your last 100 yards or so that is letting you down. You fan the brake excessively. For example, the last 15mph approaching Newington you kept on switching between off (release) and step 1 way too much. The braking should be consistent so you should try to avoid moving the PBC excessively and unnecessarily. Of course, you may need to make small adjustments (e.g. a bit of step 2 or releasing it) but you were messing about with it too much.

    You also have the habit of releasing the brakes when there’s no need to which means you end up overshooting the stop board (or you would have ended up dumping the unit if you didn’t want to overshoot). E.g. 12:58 approaching Rainham. If you didn’t release it and kept it in step 1, you would finished nicely.


    Your braking from 70mph/high speed to 15/20mph is very good with a nice controlled approach. Overall, I’m going to put it as a green because like Mr Heff, at no point did I feel you lost control of your train- most of your braking from high speed is good, it’s just the last 100 yards you need to work on. And both of you definitely have the correct idea of a nice gentle impact by finishing off in step 1. I suspect that you’re getting used to the brakes which is why you may be fanning/releasing the brake unnecessarily and that should hopefully improve after a few more journeys. Your station stop at Gillingham was excellent though so you can try modelling that.

    Mindset/mentality

    One thing that impressed me was even though you were going to overrun the stop board, you didn’t dump the unit by finishing off in step 2/3. You preferred to have a nice finishing impact (step one) so I like your mentality that you don’t care about getting 500 points. Equally, I would like to think when it comes to adverse signals, you won’t let time keeping/points cause you to rush around and chase signals. The only thing I would say though is if it is a precision stop board or a stop board where there is little margin for error, you need to stop promptly even if it means putting it into step 3/emergency. I am talking about Teynham (station before Faversham) where you came dangerously close to having your front set of doors off the platform. Passenger comfort goes out of the window if it means risking an incident. For stop boards where there is very little margin for error, I would have a much slower approach particularly the last 50 yards. Get to 5mph 20/30 yards away, let it coast for a bit and then reapply. This way you’ve got a much more controlled approach. Other stations, it doesn’t really matter although try not to make a habit of overshooting the stop board.

    I’ve not really paid attention to this in other people’s’ clips and I suspect most do the same but when you’re accelerating, you want to try and keep things simple for yourself. Your acceleration leaving stations is good so this is not a technique issue but more of a mindset issue. Let’s take 5:40, for example. Speed increased to 50mph so you took full power. Then you shut off power. A few seconds later, you took full power again to get to 60mph. Instead what would have been much better is when you were increasing speed to 50mph, use Notch 3 so that you would have got to 50mph just as you cleared the 60mph board as to avoid unnecessarily moving the PBC like an on and off switch. Of course, once you’re clear of the 60 board, feel free to go to full power. An alternative technique would be to go to full power like you did but then at 45mph, reduce power to Notch 1 such that you would get to 50mph as you cleared the 60mph board and then you could take full power again. Be creative, don’t just treat it as an on (full power) and off (no power) switch :) This is just something to think about. You can learn and apply all the procedures you want, but the one thing that I can’t teach you is how to think like a driver or what the mindset of a driver is. And as I can keep talking about, particularly when facing cautionary aspects.


    I’ve tried it here in the same location on a Class 375. (Ignore the 2 yellows) See how much simpler it is as well as being more efficient and smoother driving. I get to 50mph just as I clear the 60 board so don’t need to reduce power like you did. The time lost between using notch 3 compared to your technique is only a few seconds if that so you don’t have to worry about losing time.

    Procedures

    You took the advice on board about securing train before releasing doors (full service, neutral, door release). You forgot to do this at a few stations near the start of the journey and forgot to do a running brake test but you already realised this.

    Horn appropriately used at whistle boards.


    You didn’t use the DRA at Faversham. I’m not sure if you forgot or you don’t know what/when DRA should be used. To keep it simple, set DRA when you’re at a red signal regardless if at a station or not and also set DRA when you shutdown the cab or you’re being relieved (changing drivers such as at Faversham for the Class 395). It will prevent you from taking power. Happy to go into more detail if you wish.

    Class 395/further work

    Class 395: Any variable brake train is harder because you can get yourself in a tangle. Far too many people apply the brake randomly without giving it any thought as to how much brake they want applied which is why they make it a mess of it. You need to have parameters- think of initial braking as step 1 and think of 50% brake as step 2. If you hit the platform at 35mph and with 50% brake, it will work nicely. As I said on the other thread, have a look at FD1003’s video. HSTs are harder even though they aren’t variable brake and can take a bit of time getting used to because of how long it takes for brakes to release. But once you get used to it, it can be very satisfying to hit 300m stations at 60mph and still stop smoothly and accurately. (Not that I advise this in real life but it’s a simulator, have some fun :)) The hardest I would say is the Class 101 and the original loco on the Peninsula corridor.

    You had the HUD on for next signal. I understand why you need next speed and distance to next station on but you don’t need the next signal HUD display on :) If you feel comfortable, I’d love to see you try using scenario planner to put another train in front of you so you’re running on cautionary aspects.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
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  17. Geth_2234

    Geth_2234 Active Member

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    Olaf the Snowman
    Thank you so much for taking the time to do this im so grateful!
    I will try now and put all this into practice and take you up on your suggestion and put a freight train in front of me, sounds like a nice challenge. Again thank you:)
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think/hope I've improved in those areas, now I generally drive more carefully and approach red/single yellows a bit slower.

    TBH I would have liked to wait until I was a bit more used to the brakes (I took the video 2 days ago and I feel like I'm already a bit better now). The only notable mistake I noticed was having to use step 3 to stop at Rochester and then setting the brakes to Release instead of Step 1.

    Also I have slowed down considerebly the approach to the buffer stop in Rainham (I assume the advice given for the approach at St.P applies here too).

    The only thing I didn't do was the running brake test.

    It's a bit more awkward for me to use the notched brakes, so that's why I decided to post a second video (I promise this is the last time I bother you Olaf the Snowman),but at least this is another opportunity to thank you again for this initiative.

    Edit: I still haven't applied the "smooth acceleration" out of Chatam as the video was recorded before I saw your reply.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  19. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Bryer

    Braking technique

    The most noticeable thing that you’re doing is finishing off in step 2/3. You want the final impact just before you come to a stop to be in step 1 or initial braking. If your final impact is in step 2/3, you’ll finish off with a massive kick and even if you’re sitting down, you’ll be pushed forward. The rest of the braking is generally fine- you’re doing so well for most of the braking curve and then it’s the last few yards where you decide to put it into step 2/3 that spoils it. The final impact is probably the most important part for passenger comfort. Even if you’re an aggressive driver and using step 2/3 for your braking, make sure you reduce brake to step 1 just before you come to a stand for a nice finish.

    You may also need to work on your braking for the last couple hundred yards- if you think you’re going to need more brake, apply it as soon as possible rather than waiting till near the end and dumping the unit. If you know you’re going to need step 2 at some point, the longer you withhold it, the more step 2 you’re going to need when you do finally use it. If you do it as soon as you know you’ll need step 2, you’ll only need a touch of step 2 for a couple of seconds before bringing it back to 1 so it’s about making the small adjustments. Once you’re mastered the 465, the 395 will be a lot easier to handle.

    Cautionary aspects

    (More for other people’s benefit rather than yourself)

    I did like that you kept speed at 30mph when going past double yellows after leaving Chatham even though speed increased to 50mph. Regardless of whether you’re freight or passenger, the fundamental principles are the same- defensive driving, not chasing signals, just the let the train in front of you get away. This is why I highly recommend other people on this thread to get experience dealing with cautionary aspects because I suspect a lot of members would have accelerated past the double yellow. I remember on a live stream a few weeks ago, you did a Class 395 service on scenario planner where you put lots of trains in front of you which was good to see.

    It was also good to see yesterday on livestream where you didn’t bother taking train to linespeed leaving Reading because you knew the train in front of you was stopping and switching ends at Twyford. Just because you see a green light, it doesn’t mean you should get excited and accelerate to linespeed. E.g. if you’re a HST and a turbo has just departed before you at Reading on the mainline, there’s no point doing much more than 90mph for the entire journey to Paddington because you’re just going to catch the turbo up. Thinking ahead comes under mindset- it’s not a rulebook/company instructions so it’s not something that you can just teach someone.

    DRA

    You used the DRA at Chatham which I guess was to remind yourself of the double yellow starting signal. Some managers may not like drivers using DRA other than at the prescribed times but I actually quite liked seeing you do that. It shows that you’re aware of the risk and trying to mitigate the risk of a SPAD particularly as you knew you were going to mess about with the external camera (which is a bit like leaving the cab). I personally do like to use it for starting signals that are single yellow as well as for temporary/emergency speed restrictions where I’ve already had the warning board. Some managers won’t like to see this though because you’re overusing the DRA which can reduces its effectiveness so they’ll only want you to use it at its prescribed times.

    You should also set DRA when demobilising the cab.
     
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  20. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    Well this is not TSW (because we don't have this train yet and the cab car doesn't seem to come with it) but this is a 1h drive of a German Intercity service from Bardowick to Celle with some problems on the line (PS: In the original recording there is just minor stutter but YouTube was so kind to increase to this annoying level):

    Analysis of this drive:
    Screenshot 2021-03-09 015246.jpg upload_2021-3-9_3-9-25.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
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  21. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    FD1003

    Wow, another fantastic performance. I genuinely couldn’t have done better myself, absolutely superb stops. If you told me you drive them in real life, it wouldn’t surprise me :) Even more impressive considering that you don’t have the HUD on which shows distance to stop board (station) so you’re having to fixate your eyes on the stop board, judge distance + speed with the occasional glance at the speedometer and brake accordingly. It might not seem like much but having the HUD on where you can see distance, it’s a lot easier because you aren’t having to judge distance yourself. For those that don’t know the route and don’t feel comfortable having HUD off completely, try turning off the HUD at the last 400-500 yards to the station and try to judge the distance to stop board yourself. You’ll soon start to realise how much you rely on the HUD as instead of having eyes fixated on the stop board, you’re usually staring at the distance countdown.

    Regarding Rochester, that was actually good to see because the way you went to step 3 then brought the brake back shows you understand the physics of the train very well. Chatham was the opposite where you released the brakes for a second before reapplying. That is precisely what I mean by making small adjustments where you might need to briefly release or briefly apply a bit more brake. The way you do it so naturally and instinctively shows you’ve really mastered the handling to the extent where you could probably drive the last few hundred yards without even looking at the speedometer because you can judge speed yourself. It does go to show what I said previously that once you can operate one multiple unit well, you can operate any multiple unit well so it doesn’t surprise me after seeing how well you did on the 395.

    Obviously having HUD off means you’re having to know speeds and braking points for reductions in speed/stations and you seem to have the learn’t the route extremely well so well done. 9:30- The way you came down to 15mph was excellent. You left a safe distance between getting down to 15mph and the commencement for the 15mph speedboard. But also, I liked how you used step 2 and brought it back to step 1 for the last few mph before releasing as oppose to step 2 straight to release. Your station stop at Rainham (buffer stops) was excellent and well controlled.

    If you feel comfortable, I would love to see how you do with a HST. You can try the HST on scenario planner on SEHS because you can get some good practice stopping at stations. While your performance on the 395/465 is excellent, they are simple to drive. Some drivers nickname modern units ‘toy trains’ because they are extremely simple to operate due to the combined power brake controller and instantaneous braking. The skill isn’t really operating them but staying awake/maintaining concentration because they are quite boring. So I would love to see how you do on a HST which does take a lot more skill because of the big delays in brake. I will be very impressed if you’re able to master them! The issue with GWE is you don’t get any stopping practice with the HST- the only time you normally stop is at Paddington or Reading where you’re having to approach slowly due to the buffer stops/ red signal which is why I suggest trying scenario planner on SEHS where you can get a lot of stopping practice at good speed (as well as because you know the route very well). That will be a good challenge for you I think. Tell me what you think? Have you driven the HST much at all?


    Also, try to find some of your own. For example, leaving St Pancras speed goes from 40 -> 60 -> 80 -> 200 pretty quickly. Instead of doing Wack to Full power - 40 - Wack to off - Wack to full power - 60 - Wack to off - Wack to full power - 80, etc... try to be more creative/efficient/smoother than that. Experiment and see what works well :)

    It’s nice to be appreciated and you’re welcome to post whenever you want :)
     
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  22. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    This genuinely made my day, I don't what to say... Many thanks. I don't use the HST a lot (GWE is good but IMO is a bit boring) but I've used the TGV a bit and they seem pretty similar (considering your description of the HST) and it is really difficult to stop precisely, like you said it's a shame with those trains you can't get much practise as you only stop once or twice per service.

    About the scenario designer it's a great suggestion, I will make it (with both the HST and the TGV) and I will post them here.

    Again, thank you very much, as I said I love this thread, it's helping me a lot to get better, particularly with british trains :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
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  23. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    No problem and looking forward to it :)
     
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  24. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That was great fun, and a pretty cool challenge, before starting this trip I got as far as Rainham and restarted to have just a tiny bit of practice.

    Definitely enjoyed it, thanks for the suggestion
     
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  25. GT2

    GT2 Well-Known Member

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    This is a excellent thead olaf,hello to you and everyone.I have better newer videos but more interested checking my favorite drive's


    More interested in these .Lirr my specialty lol and thank you olaf cheers my brother







     
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  26. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Jo_Kim

    A very good performance. Nice smooth stops and well controlled against the red signals hitting the start of the stations at 30-35mph which is a sensible speed. I liked the way you released the brake controller a few kph before coming to a stop for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th station stops. This meant you stopped on a rising brake pipe and you stopped extremely smoothly (<1 bar final impact).

    I don’t know about German operating procedures but I would have thought that you should secure the train with the train brake when stopped at a station. It looks like you secured it with independent brake (or is it an automatic brake hold application?) but I would have thought train brake is needed too.
     
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  27. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    It's standard procedure in Germany to secure the train with the direct / independent brake only. In steep sections the indirect / train brake can be also used but since this route is located in the North German Plain this was not necessary. Modern rolling stock has an automatic station brake which activates the independent brake but this cab car doesn't have this feature.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  28. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    FD1003

    Thanks, that was good to see I think you did very well. It was a very good performance and your stations were all well controlled. Previously, I’ve been talking about mindset of a driver and I liked the way you handled the challenge- You knew you weren’t confident on HSTs so you were risk averse and deliberately had nice and slow approaches to stations hitting them at 25-30mph and tried to do most of your braking in step 1 and 2. This was a wise move because if you’re using step 3 or above in the last 200 yards, you risk the run of stopping short. Some of the station stops were near perfect and considering I didn’t give any guidance, I’m impressed. Your technique is generally good apart from some very minor tweaks which I describe in the paragraph after next. I’ve added some additional information on HSTs which hopefully you and GT2 find interesting.

    What makes HSTs very difficult is how long it takes for brakes to release which is almost like a vacuum brake. The reason why it takes so long for brakes to release is due to the way the brakes are setup- when you apply the brakes, the brake pipe reduces pressure form both ends of the train. However, when you release the brakes, it only releases from one end only (the end you’re in) which is why there is such a big delay when releasing. I’m sure you would have noticed how the HST physics are so different in TSW and TSW 2. The brakes were almost instantaneous like a multiple unit in TSW but they have fixed that in TSW 2.

    You want to try stopping with a rising brake pipe (so brake cylinder pressure decreasing). This is to prevent stopping in a pile as otherwise, you’ll get coaches bunching up as they each stop in turn.
    If possible, try to place brake controller in release. The brakes won’t fully release because of how slowly brakes release but you’ll stop much nicer. If you’re in step 1, brakes will take approx 5mph to fully release. So once you get between 2-4 mph, place it to release and you’ll stop with brake cylinder pressure between release and step 1 for a much nicer impact. It’s a bit like what Jo_Kim did and also I’ve shown it in the video below. Of course, as soon as you stop, apply the brake again to secure the train. You did this at some stations like at Chatham 23:00 which was a brilliant stop. But some stations, you stopped in step 1 when you could have released it. E.g. 17:20, if you went to release a couple of seconds before you stopped, it would have been perfect.

    Here is a video on YouTube of a HST coming into St Pancras. Notice the way the driver fans the brake between step 1 and release in quick succession. On a multiple unit, this is not recommended but with a HST as the brakes apply/release slowly you can fan the brake because this way you can effectively get half a brake step. So by applying step 1 for a second and then releasing, you’ve not actually got to step 1 but you’ve got halfway in between. And also notice how the driver puts it into release just before he stops. It is quite difficult to explain but I hope you understand.

    You can watch the last 60-90 seconds if you don’t want to see it all:


    Here are a few station stops- they get more aggressive each time. When you get very confident with HSTs, you can hit stations at 50mph+ and still stop smoothly which is extremely satisfying. Didcot Parkway and Swindon (between Reading and Bristol if you don’t know where that is) were common stations where some drivers used to come in quite aggressively. I tried to do this for the 3rd and 4th station stops and look how long it takes for the brakes to release. If you hit the station about 50mph in full service, release the brakes at approx 30mph and by the time the brakes fully release, you’ll only be doing a few mph if that. The risk of HSTs is not overrunning but stopping short. Remember, the guard releases the doors so if you’ve stopped short and the guard hasn’t realised, the rear doors could be hanging off the platform.


    • 0:00 Departing from a station (I’ve described in the 2nd operating procedure below)
    • 0:25 Trying to show what I was describing above about fanning the brake and getting brakes between release and step 1. Notice how step 1 is 1.3 bar of brake cylinder pressure but if you apply and release, you can get somewhere between 0.5-1 bar. Obviously, you wouldn’t fan this much in real life but I’m just trying to show you.
    • 1:08 How to stop the train smoothly- by putting it into release, you finish on a rising brake pipe and in this example, I finished in 0.7bar. If you just left it in step 1, it would have been 1.2 bar.
    • 4 station stops, 3rd/4th are much aggressive and shows what can be done when you’re very confident with them

    There are a few additional/different operating procedures on HSTs:
    1. When securing the train at a station, instead of going to full service like multiple units, you only need to put it into step 2. And still put reverser into neutral. (When demobilising the cab at the end of the journey, use full service though)
    2. When moving off from a start, you should apply power before releasing the brakes. The general procedure used is as follows. (See start of video above)
      • (Train secured in step 2, Neutral)
      • Guard to Driver, Buzz Buzz
      • Into Forward. Reduce brake to step 1 and apply notch 1 of power
      • Return Buzz Buzz to Guard and wait for brakes to partially release/amps to build up
      • Reduce brake to release and apply notch 2 of power (or notch 3 if on an uphill gradient)
    3. When braking, you should try to apply step 1 for a few seconds before moving to a higher brake step- note how I did this in the video. The reason being is that the intake for the air vents are next to the brakes which is a bit of a design flaw. But they modified it so that when the driver applies brakes, the air intake will close but it takes a few seconds for it to close which is why ideally you should step 1 for a few seconds before going to a higher brake step (by then, the intake should have closed). For anyone who has travelled on a HST, this is why you sometimes get that strong burning rubber smell when the train is braking. Obviously, if it is urgent braking such as for cautionary aspects, go straight to whatever brake step you need as passenger comfort goes out the window.
    Thanks again, that was good to see and well done :)
     
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  29. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Why is that the case, Olaf?
     
  30. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    The issue with modern units is because they have instantaneous braking, if you were to fan the brakes then you would very quickly go from let’s say 0 bar to 1 bar very quickly. That is not a smooth stop at all if you are constantly going 0-1bar back to 0 bar back to 1 bar continuously. You want to be braking consistently and making small adjustments if need be. On a HST/loco, when you’re fanning the brake, it’s for a different purpose- you’re trying to maintain that half a brake step. If you saw the second video in the previous post, I tried showing this and even though I was fanning it, brake cylinder pressure only varied from 0.5-0.8 bar because of how slowly the brakes take to apply/release. There would be no point doing this on a modern unit because of how quick brakes come on, you can’t achieve half a brake step.

    Also, it’s not recommended to go straight from release to a high brake step very quickly. Ideally, you should go release to step 1, pause for a couple seconds then go to step 2, then another pause before going to step 3. Whereas on a HST, it’s ok to go straight from step 1 straight to step 6 because the brakes automatically gradually come on due to the nature of the air brake. On a multiple unit, due to the instantaneous brake response, it would be very uncomfortable if you went to a high brake very quickly- it would be like slamming the brakes on in your car so you should manually gradually increase the brake. Have a look how quick the needle moves on a unit and compare how painstakingly slow it is on a HST.
     
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  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, sorry for sounding a bit like a broken record but it really is appreciated all the time and effort you spend on this thread.

    Knowing next to nothing about early British traction all of this information is new to me and very interesting.

    I can image how good it would feel to hit a station at 50mph and then get a perfect stop as well... that would be fantastic, sadly GWE and the HST are not my favourites in TSW for various reasons, but from time to time I'll run that custom scenario again, or if I happen to take a quick trip on GWE I'll do my best to make sure to use the correct procedures.

    It's always very fascinating to see the differences between the old trains and the modern ones, I could even think about getting TVL or NTP...

    I'll try to practise anyway, particularly about stopping on a raising pipe, because I came across the information that was standard procedure in Germany, and it's not easy for me to do it correctly consistently. Fanning the brake makes sense but I would have never thought about it was an actual technique used by real drivers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  32. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Well done for getting to 250 subs (251 subs as I write but I'm sure it will be 260 by the time I post this :)). I remember when you first started the channel, you've come such a long way.
    Regarding your latest SPAD video- that was funny to see and there have been some really bizarre SPADs like that in real life. And as I've said in another thread, we've had drivers that have stopped at a red light and released the doors without even realising because it becomes such muscle memory to stop, secure the train and release the doors.

    HST
    Nice to see some cautionary aspects and it was good to see you kill the speed. Ideally, i would say aim for 80mph past 2 yellows and 40/50mph past one yellow. When you have a target speed in your head at which you want to be doing, on a multiple unit it is easy because you just release the brakes just before you reach that speed. However, on a HST you need to release a lot, lot earlier than. Approx for every brake step you're in, it will take 5mph before brakes release. So if you're in step 2, it will take 10 mph; step 3, 15 mph, etc.. step 6, 30mph. At 21:52, you went past the 2 yellows in full service at pretty much exactly 80mph which is good. But its was only until you got to 50mph did you release the brakes- on a multiple unit such as Class 395 that would be fine because it would release instantly and you would be doing 50mph. But on the HST, by the time brakes released you got to 30mph and ended up having to take power (22:49). Next time, try planning ahead. As I said above, if you're in step 6 it will take 30mph approximately before brakes released so if your target speed was 50mph, release the brakes at 80mph. If you did that as you passed the 2 yellows at 21:52 that would have been perfect. And as you approached the next signal and it was single yellow, you could have easily put it into step 1/2 and got down to 30-40 mph as you passed it.

    Again, as you passed the one yellow taking you into the platform, you were doing 30mph in step 2 (25:35). When you released it at 25mph, train was brought down to 15mph so you ended up taking power. As above, if you're in step 2 you can expect the train to take 10mph before brakes fully release.
    In the last 100-150 yards, you need to be very careful not to stop short. So when you have a target speed in your head lets say 10mph and you're step 1, release the brakes at 15mph. Or if you're target speed is 5mph, release it 10mph, etc... You were actually doing really well in step 1 and then when you got to the magnet (26:45), you increased the brake and by the time you released it, you lost a lot of speed. To be honest there was no need for step 2 but if you feel you need a tiny bit more brake you could have just went to step 2 for a split second and straight back to step 1 which meant you would have effectively got step 1.5 of brake application as I explained in the previous post.

    This is all hard to explain but I hope you understand. As I said to Fd3001, if you want to get good with a HST you need to use scenario mode. You're not going to get confident by just doing Paddington to Reading fast as you're getting very little stopping practice and when you are stopping, you're approaching a red or buffer stops so can't do anything too exciting anywhere. As you like LIRR, maybe trying doing an all stopper on there. You'll be stopping every couple of minutes and most stations are a good length so you can hit them at 30-40mph.

    But I was still very happy to see defensive driving and how you killed the speed when you experienced cautionary aspects as well as how you approached the red at Reading with full control but the above is just something to think about.

    LIRR
    Generally very good stops. Most of your braking was in 40-50 % which means that it’s good for passenger comfort and also it means that you’ve got plenty of brake in reserve if you do so need it.

    If I have to be critical, you could make the braking more consistent. Just to give an example, the station stop at 40:30 you reduced and applied the brake 4 times. To be fair to you, the M7 is difficult even more so than the Class 395 because the M7 is fully variable brake whereas the Class 395, the minimum application is 20%. And the LIRR Route has so many stations with various lengths and stop boards at various positions on the platform, it does make it so much more difficult especially as you’ve got the HUD off. I’ve talked about parameters before when discussing variable brake because people get themselves in a tangle if they randomly apply the brake with no thought to how much they want to apply. You’ve obviously thought about this which is good- it looks like your parameters you’re regularly using are 40% braking (the first brake line on the screen) and release. If you want to avoid fanning the brake too much, maybe add in another parameter for yourself such as halfway between release and 40% brake. Taking the example again at 40:30, instead of releasing (or mostly releasing) the brake, if you reduced it to 20% brake, the braking would have been a lot more consistent instead of just constantly switching between release and 40%. It’s a bit like on a Class 465 or other 3 brake step unit switching between step 2 and release. Why not use step 1 instead of releasing it, this way it’s a lot more consistent and you won’t need as much step 2 if at all. 10:00 was another example of this.

    The other thing is, just before you come to a stand, try to bring the brake back to a few % for a nice finishing impact. The M7 has a fully variable brake which means the 0-20% brake is accessible where it isn’t on a Class 395 because the minimum application is 20%. So make the most use out of it by having a finishing impact with brake in a few %. You only need to do this just before you’re about to stop such as in the last 1-2mph. The stops will be so much smoother to the extent where in real life, you wouldn’t even know you’ve stopped as the final impact is that smooth.

    Generally speaking though, your driving was to a high standard so I wouldn’t worry too much about the above but again, it’s just something to think about.

    16:16 was a great stop. It was a short platform with very little margin for error so it was good to see you hit the platform at 20mph and how you approached the last 20-30 yards with great care which was perfect.

    HST/66
    On the HST/66, I liked how you did most of your braking in initial braking and how you coasted a lot. And your speed was down nice and early passing the 2 yellows in preparation for stopping. You kept speed at 60mph throughout, I’m not sure if you thought that was the maximum? You could do passenger speeds up to 75mph and most of linespeed on the relief (slow) is 90mph.
    You got a bit excited at 58:00 :)

    It was great to see you enjoy a variety of different routes from different countries. And you’ve got the right mindset for driver- no matter the route or traction, you tried to do most of your braking as light as possible with nice smooth stops. When you received cautionary aspects, you killed the speed and had a nice controlled approach to the red on all routes which goes to show that the fundamental skills of being a train driver no matter route or traction or type of train you’re operating are the same. Keep it up and it was great to watch particularly as you didn’t even use the HUD :)

    I’ll see the ICE and TGV ones soon
     
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  33. GT2

    GT2 Well-Known Member

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    This literally made my day,thank you olaf.Im definitely taking notes.And olaf I recommend if you have the time to make braking guide Video''s..I would find that enjoyable and helpful..I drive alot better since those Video''s,,once lirr gets update i will continue the No Hud No Error 's series.
     
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  34. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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  35. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Like this thread, Olaf and all of them are set during the wintertime in different conditions. First Video LIRR Train 748 is set during a Winter Clear Condition from NY Penn Station to Hempstead. Followed by 5H06 Reading to Twyford in winter snow conditions starting from Reading Depot. The last one is Main Spessart Bahn Lohr-Gemunden during a winter Blizzard condition necessitating the use of sand this clip here and has my train held at Langenprozelten to let DB 88119 Double DB BR185 freight train to Frankfurt Am Main off-map via Aschaffenburg from Gemunden. German Train Safety Systems PZB & Sifa are turned on just like LIRR ATC Alerter and GWML AWS TPWS.

    LIRR Train 748 NY Penn to Hempstead
    5H06 Reading to Twyford

    Lohr-Gemunden Local
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  36. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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  37. sinnere

    sinnere Active Member

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    I love this thread. I always cringe so hard whenever I watch some of these runs on YouTube and they aggressively increase the brakes when coming to a stop or "fan the brakes". It's far from comfortable as a passenger - you want to give them a smooth jolt-free ride. Not to mention the damage done to equipment. Many of us aren't actual train drivers but I would've thought this was an obvious no no.
     
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  38. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    driverwoods#1787 I apologise for the late running of this post. This is due to cows on the thread between posts 12 and 13.

    A general comment- you seem to be spamming the warning button for no reason. Is it because you’re unsure of how the warning systems work? Or are you exercising your thumb :) Without exaggeration, you must have pressed it hundreds if not 1000+ times in the second video which is only from Reading depot to Twyford. The same again on the 3rd video.
    AWS is simple because you only need to press the warning button whenever you hear the warning and you get 2-3 seconds to do this. Unlike PZB, the silent assassin, which is understandably harder because you don’t get any audible indication as to when you need to press it. At 18:00 on your third video, you need to press the PZB release button because if the 70/85 is flashing, it means that you’re on restricted monitoring. So if you go above 25kph, you’ll get an emergency brake application. The release button isn’t mapped on controller from what I understand so you have to move the camera to the PZB release button and manually click on it. You can’t do this though when you’ve got 1000Hz or 500Hz lit as well.

    Second video
    10:40
    I’m not sure if it was on purpose but you did do a running brake test just before you got Reading which was good to see. In snowy conditions, additional running brake tests would have to be carried out but I won’t bore you with the details.

    13:20 Bell/buzzer departing Reading- it sounds like you were attempting 1-2 which is the code from the guard to driver to close doors. The driver then presses the close doors button and returns the 1-2 buzzer. The guard then gets inside the rear cab, closes the cab door and gives 2 on the buzzer which is the signal to depart. Driver returns the 2 on the buzzer and off you go. Your bell buzzer got a bit erratic :) so wasn’t sure if you entirely understood that. This is how it works when there is a guard on the turbo such as on the Reading to Gatwick Airport and Reading to Basingstoke services. Voyagers (Class 220/221) work the same way as there is no door locking panel for the guard.
    1-2: Buzz *pause* Buzz Buzz
    2: Buzz Buzz
    When you got to Twyford, there’s no need for any bell buzzer before opening the doors. Instead, what you should have done and also at Reading, is secure the train before releasing doors. Put the brake controller into full service and reverser into neutral before releasing doors.

    22:16 At Twyford, as well as securing the train before releasing doors, you should have additionally set the DRA. DRA should be applied as you have a red signal at the end of the platform. Even if you’re going to switch ends as the train will be going towards Henley, you still set the DRA when you’re demobilising (‘shutting down’) a cab.

    Braking technique: You shouldn’t have to use step 3. You should do all your braking in step 1 and 2 and there’s no reason why you can’t do most of your braking in step 1. You’re using the controller as an ‘on and off’ switch. E.g. 21:26, you go into step 3 and then 5 seconds later, you release it completely and then crawl to the stopping mark. Smooth, consistent braking is key.
    There was no need for step 3 in the first place- if you had put it into step 1 instead at the exact same point, it would have come down perfectly (probably would have needed a touch of step 2 as well). Always finish in step 1 just before you come to a stop if you’re not already in step 1. Finishing in step 3 is a very high impact.

    Aim for 15-20mph 100 yards away and this will put you in good stead. This goes for nearly all routes and traction including LIRR. From there on, you should only need step 1 or 30/40% brake. If it’s a 250-300 yards platform, do no more than 30-35mph at the start of the platform. You shouldn’t need any more than step 2 or 50/60% brake. Extrapolating that further back, 50-60mph about 0.6miles/1000 yards away is a good speed.

    I’m not going to say too much about the first video because your problems become more profound- M7 is much more difficult to master because it’s fully variable brake. I’d try mastering the turbo which is in my opinion the easiest traction in the game. Once you’ve done that then you can move onto variable brake trains. Perhaps if you find the GWE route boring, use scenario mode to drive a turbo on the LIRR route.

    The third video seems to be an issue with not understanding how PZB works as you were crawling in lots of places when you didn’t need to. You ended up being 17 late at your destination.

    You’re more than welcome to post again. It’s great to see people improve :)
     
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  39. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    For the final part of the winter time Main Spessart Bahn trip I was late because of the Freight Train which was at Langenprozelten at 12:20 and I couldn't get the Doppelstockwagen Cab car to normal speed then slow down for Gemünden. Can you please show me where is the Class 166 DRA Switch and proper procedure for Class 166. The route that I spent the longest time on is LIRR to which I'm very familiar with the Alerter sound. For the second and third Clips I got carried away PZB acknowledge spam for AWS UK.
    Since you mentioned reading to Gatwick Airport Service are you referring to the new BML route Redhill Gatwick Airport and North Downs Line.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  40. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Main Spessart Bahn- I mean such as at 18:00 even though you had a green signal and speed was 50/60kph, you only got up to 19kph and that took 5 minutes before you got to that speed. I’ve just realised that you weren’t getting any power- the only reason you were moving and (ever so slightly) increasing speed was because there was a slight downhill gradient. If you’ve lost power for whatever reason such as after braking, you need to reset power by going to ‘off’ on the power controller before reapplying power. Have a look- at no point did any amps register after the intermediate station so you literally rolled to Gemunden. That’s impressive :)

    I was referring to the North Downs line. The North Downs line is from Reading to Gatwick Airport. It connects the Great Western Mainline with the Portsmouth Direct Line (at Guildford) and Brighton Mainline Line (at Redhill and Gatwick Airport). The BML is not the North Downs line but they just connect as shown in the map below.

    DRA- you were playing with it at 6:23 and again at 10:20 in the clip :) The DRA (Driver reminders appliance) prevents power from being applied (but you can still get brake release). It’s used by driver to remind themselves of a red signal. The times you would use the DRA is as follows:
    1. Stood at a red signal regardless of whether it’s at a station or not.
    2. When passing a single yellow AND the station has no starting signal. (I.e. you can’t see the next signal but expect it to be red)
    3. When demobilising a cab
    4. When leaving the cab for any reason including when being relieved by another driver

    In scenario 1, when the signal clears then you may reset the DRA. In scenario 2, when you’re about to depart the station, you can reset the DRA- be careful as expect the next signal to be red. I’ll try and see if I can screenrecord a couple of clips for station stops and bell buzzer.


    EEBF21DB-04A9-4133-85E9-B355820E25C4.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  41. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    driverwoods#1787
    Apologies when I said North Downs Line, I should have said from Reading to Redhill rather than Reading to Gatwick Airport. The GWR service usually uses the dead end platform at Redhill and the driver switches end before continuing the service to Gatwick Airport via the Brighton Mainline.

    First clip shows Bell/buzzer dispatch with a guard. (I acted as the guard and driver by giving myself the bell/buzzer). Then 3 station stops. Note that it’s almost never going to be perfect where you give it a step 1 and won’t have to adjust the brake at all. But it’s about making small adjustments like I did for nice consistent and smooth braking.


     
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  42. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Saw that video and did you use dra or not? To answer that question you have about the brake test I did that on purpose because I'm doing a local commute run to Twyford during a Snow shower.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  43. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    No, because there was no need to in any of my cases. I had green at the end of every station platform. When you stopped at Twyford, you would have had to set the DRA as per points 1 and 3 in the list. I might make a few clips on how and when to use DRA.

    Ok, that’s good to see. If you’re curious to know how running brake tests work in the UK: Procedure is to do a running brake test at the start of journey regardless of what the weather is. The exact instruction varies by company but a lot of companies say to reduce speed by at least 10mph. So for example, you’re leaving London Paddington, when you get to 40mph, you reduce speed by 10mph to 30mph and then carry on with your journey as normal. There is no set speed you have to do a running brake test- you could do it at 30mph or 50mph or 60mph but choose something sensible.

    In snow conditions, additional running brake tests have to be carried out. Every 3-5 minutes, make a full service brake application and reduce speed by 10mph. Maximum speed is 100mph or 10mph below linespeed whichever is lower. E.g. if linespeed is 100mph, you can’t do more than 90mph. The main purpose of the additional running brake tests are to prevent the brake pads from freezing. On modern traction, there is a snow brake button so you don’t have to do running brake tests. Instead, you just press the snow brake button every few minutes which will cause some pressure to apply to the brake pads to keep them warm- you can even do this while accelerating! The other thing you’ll notice on some traction such as on the Class 395 and Class 375 is that there is a “snow mode” button- you can see the buttons in the game but you can’t press them. What they do in real life is it cuts out regenerative braking so rheostatic braking occurs instead which keeps the resistors on the top of the train warm.

     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  44. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    KCRCRailway


    First of all, just wanted to say that is some interesting background music to go with the videos :)

    General feedback:


    1. Bell/buzzer: So you’re giving 1 on the buzzer before you release the doors. I’m not sure if that is the procedure in your country (Hong Kong?) but in the UK, irrespective of whether it is the driver or guard releasing the doors, the buzzer is not used (normally). If you’ve stopped short or overshot the platform and the guard is responsible for releasing the doors then you would give 2-2 on the buzzer as soon as possible which is the code for do not release doors.

    Before closing doors, again you’re giving 2 on the buzzer. I guess you’re mimicking the guard giving the buzzer to the driver? As I said in the previous post to Driver Woods, the buzzer code to close doors if the driver is closing them and there is a guard is 1-2. (Buzz pause Buzz Buzz) The driver repeats this back and presses the close door button. See the video of the class 166 in the post above. However, that procedure is only applicable to certain traction where there is no close door buttons for the guard. E.g. Class 166, Class 220/1 Voyagers. If there is a guard on an electrostar (Class 377/387/375/etc...), the guard can close doors themselves so the only buzzers the driver would receive would be 2 when the train is ready to go just like you’re doing before you go. Again, you would repeat the 2 on the buzzer back to the guard.

    If the train does not have a guard, then the buzzer is not used at all.


    2. Securing the train at stations: Before you release the doors at stations, you’re setting the DRA. I’ve listed the times of when to use DRA in the previous post so have a look at that. You don’t need to set DRA everytime you stop at a station. If the signal is red, then you set DRA but not if the signal is showing a proceed aspect.

    As I’ve said before, when you come to a stand at a station, secure the train by going into full service (step 3), neutral and then release doors. If you left it in forward and walked outside the cab like you are doing at most stations, in real life the DSD alarm would be going off. If you’re in a direction (forward/reverse), DSD is active irrespective or whether you’re stationary or moving.

    At the terminus station, you reset DRA after releasing the doors. As per the list I wrote, DRA must be set when shutting down a cab. Not doing so is not going to have any physical effect on the train but having it set means the next time a driver sets up this cab, DRA will already be set so it is failsafe as they have to reset it in order to move. However, what will have a physical effect on the train is putting the controller into Emergency like you did at the end of the first and second videos. When the next driver comes and goes to the front cab, they’ll not be able to get brake release. They will have to run back to the rear cab to move the controller out of emergency and then run back again to the front while, no doubt, cursing you :) It does happen in real life occasionally by accident. When shutting down a cab, put the controller into step 3. If you leave it in step 1 or 2, it won’t cause a problem, but company instructions want you putting it in step 3.


    3. Running Brake Test: I’ve wrote plenty on this. Test your brakes at the start of journey. E.g. When you get to 40mph, reduce speed to 30mph and then carry on with your journey as normal.


    4. Hillstart: At Falmer at 12:07 in your second video, you’ve got an incline of 1.1%. You came very close to rolling back. You should use the hill start when you’re starting your train on an incline. Hold down the brake hold button (which is LT on an Xbox, not sure about PC) and move the controller to a power position. E.g. notch 2. You will hear the traction powers energise but will still see a brake pressure reading being registered on the brake cylinder pressure gauge. On an electrostar, don’t release the brake hold button until the train starts moving. The hill start will automatically release when the power circuit is made- you will see brake cylinder pressure reduce to 0. On some other traction such as the Class 166, the hill start will not automatically release. So hold the brake hold button and move to a power position. Hold it down for a couple of seconds and when you hear the engines rev up then you can release the brake hold button.

    Personally, I always use the hill start at all stations not just ones with an incline as I think it is good to get in the habit of it.


    5. Approaching buffer stops: Hard to comment on the first video because I can’t see the speedometer as you’re approaching the buffer stops. But at the end of the second video, you came in too quickly. Do no more than 10mph 2 coach lengths away from buffer stops. In real life there are TPWS grids on the approach to all (or nearly all) buffer stops. You can’t see them on the ECW route but can see them at Paddington on GWE, for example. If you are going higher than 10mph past the grids, you’ll get an emergency brake application which is a serious operating incident. Reduce speed to 5mph one coach length away from buffer stops. The distance you stopped from the buffer stops was perfect.


    6. Approach to red signals: At the end of your third video, you stopped at 2 red signals. At the first red signal just before the station, 40:40 in the third video, approach was far too quick- even if the conditions were dry, it was still very aggressive. Some companies have a driving policy of doing no more than 20mph, 200 yards away from red signal. Some companies say 15mph and freight is usually 10mph. In snow or low adhesion conditions, 10mph for passanger too. 200 yards is usually where the AWS magnet is but be careful as some AWS magnets are far closer than 200 yards particuarly on the SEHS route. You were doing 24mph at the AWS. The distance you stopped from the red signal was good and you used the DRA correctly. When stopped at red signals, just like stations, secure the train by putting the controller into full service and reverser into neutral.

    The second red signal at the end of Gravesend platform was even more aggressive- doing 30mph at the AWS. If it was me, I would have used step 1 as I entered the start of the platform. And thats even if the signal was not red.



    I’ll go over braking technique and route learning in a seperate post but just wanted to clarify the above points. If it doesn’t make sense, let me know and I’ll try making a quick video. I appreciate trying to read a lot of information may not be easy to understand but hope it is helpful anyway.
     
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  45. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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    Thanks for the long feedback! (Music is nice? :P)
    Let me reply for each point.
    1: In China Mainland and Hong Kong, a total of 3 types of train will run: EMU with ATO (Hong Kong's heavy rail), Locomotive with Carriges (Most Mainalnd and 1 set in Hong Kong) and High Speed EMU (Again, only 1 set in Hong Kong). So I guess for ATO the driver does not have guard (and he was basically doing the guard's job). Probably no bell at all on Locomotive and, if any bell was used, it might be on High Speed EMU.
    Anyway I didn't really research in the bell so I was randomly pressing them (unless DTG put score system for misusing it:P)
    So I guess I should make a note that use 1-2 before closing door and 2 before moving on.
    2: I normally either use DRA or put the brake to EB when waiting for AI got pushed on train. Indeed it is not a need for DRA, but I think (hopefully) it was not going to cause trouble by doing so. After all, it was quite helping me to keep the alarm before moving my train.
    Interestingly I think I now know why 465 always got DSD activated whenever I stand up, looks like I should push to neutral before so. It might be the first train in game simulating this correctly?
    I reset DRA when shutting down is mainly because I does not know if it will lock the other cab or not. And the reason I put EB not B3 is, similar to 1 above, most of my knowledge come from others and could mix up or misunderstanded. I heard that JR normally put EB and Neutral when shutting down so do I. I noticed on 313 that it was impossible to move it with 1 cab on EB, probably DTG are on another right step on simulating.
    3: I blame the train company's tight timetable for this---Joking. Another note needed.
    4: I think no button for that which means I need to use my mouse to hold it. DTG always produce function without mentioning them in the manual--or they did mentioned but not explaining the exact way to do it. New knowledge learned.
    5: I do hope DTG make the TPWS work on stopping at buffer, so I will learn with pain and blood until I remember come in slow :P. I will probably come in much slower if I cut HUD off as I will have less confidence on distance and will not trust my brake.
    6: With all above, you will able to tell I does not have a high level of professional understanding of railway and was largely influenced by Metro Style Driving like how you see in Bakerloo and other underground systems or many JR routes. (100kph(!) entering platform)Such kind of approach was what I have in mind (after playing too much DenSha Go).
    It was quite funny that the fact I aggressively push my brake is because I have no confidence on them. Recently I played Bakerloo line and find out most case I can do a B1 and only use B2 for stopping. That doesn't work well on National Rail where I always feel B1 are too weak, B2 are still weak, B3 and my train suddenly stopped.
    So to prevent such situation, I tend to do a hard brake which largely reduce speed, then adjust it to lower level. My passenger are surely not happy when their face got slammed on chair while I was doing a last second brake :P.
    Probably the more experience one have, the easier one know when they can start B1 and do a perfect stop. But I'm not on that level yet.
    You will see me climbing at 20mph if I was on Locomotive :P
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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  46. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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    I think I should reorganize my structre on point 6 for braking.
    Not every time I approach signal in such speed. If I was starting up from station with a yellow, I normally keep around 30mph unless 1: The signal distance was way too far, such as NTP after you leave Leeds around noon where a freight went first, causing a yellow and the next signal is almost 2 miles away or 2: I know very clear the signal set up is and have 100% confidence that I can brake in time (Such as signals after Chatham with a 60-50(Signal)-30(Signal).
    For the 2nd section, I already know the braking point if signal was green, so in case signal was yellow, I know how long I can roll on until B2.
    I act different on GWE where signal was close. Often ends up rolling at 15 mph with yellow beggin the next signal was not red (didn't end well as it always switch to yellow the moment I stop :(
     
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  47. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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    Oh, I just noticed the 2nd video was entering Seaford.
    Seaford was really trickly with a 70mph speed limit suddenly change to 15mph at platform, it was really hard to tell the brake point and I often getting close with around 55mph, which means I had been slower than expected and result as delay 50sec at stopping, so I can't ask myself to slow down with risk of delay :(. Probably another issue with DTG using AI to test timetable, unknowing the exact situation. Similar on GCC where you got 30 sec to run for next station 700 yards away with low speed limit.
    Also, for the Brighton, I think it was around 19mph at the moment I can see blue marker and hit the brake.
    With the 40:40 red signal on 3rd video, it was the situation of 2 as said above, I run this route enough time to tell the signal's location, but indeed it was not needed to enter 24mph as, anyone played SEHS knows, it was unavoidable being delay on Gravesend with AI ahead.
    Indeed I have the same feeling for the stopping. Hopefully whoever use that guide will learn they should use B1 after failing 3 services (3hours) at the last moment:P
     
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  48. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Yes :cool:

    Interesting, thanks.

    I don't have either the Class 465 (I have SEHS though) nor Catchcart Circle but they both sound correct as per real life. Setting DRA will not lock up other cabs and TSW has done this correctly so you can leave DRA set. However, the other warning systems haven't been modelled correctly- if you don't reisolate AWS/TPWS and/or DSD before switching ends, you'll keep getting an emergency brake application because the warning systems remain active. This isn't correct as in real life, warning systems only activate when that particular cab is active. In fact, you can't even reisolate warning systems on modern traction as it requires a special key that only maintenance staff and managers have. Isolating a warning system is very rare and is only done if there is a fault.

    You will see me climbing at 20mph if I was on Locomotive :P[/QUOTE]

    Driving aggressively is strongly discouraged in the modern day in the UK. There are a few drivers that still do it but they tend to be drivers that started their careers in British Rail where driving aggressive was the norm. We’ve still got drivers who started their careers in the late 1970s and early 1980s, a completely different culture compared to today. Turning up to work drunk or letting the guard drive the train were the norm. As I’ve said upthread, you can hit a 300-350 metre platform and 50-60mph if you really wanted too. It’s a lot more skilful on a HST because of how long it takes for brakes to apply and release. On a 300-350 metre platform, hitting the platform about 30-40mph is what most drivers do. A few % of drivers will do less than that and a few % will be more aggressive than that. (Obviously, if the signal is red at the end of the platform, it's a completely different ball game)

    I've watched quite a few JR and other rail videos from China/Hong Kong in the past. I really like how the guards dispatch the train especially in some videos where they shout commands and point.

    That’s sensible. In fact that is the instruction for my company where if we are starting on a single yellow, we are not to accelerate to more than 30mph in order to reduce the risk of a Start on yellow (SOY) SPAD.

    Which signals are you referring to (or what rough location)?

    Fair enough. I hardly play TSW to be honest and when I do, I try to drive as I would in real life because I don't want to develop bad habits. But I can understand a lot of people won't see it that way as they want points/Gold medal. In real life, being late is normal and drivers are not supposed to chase time by heavy braking, etc... When encountering cautionary aspects, on a route like SEHS and ECW, I aim to be doing no more than 30-40mph past the single yellow.
     
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  49. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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    Driving aggressively is strongly discouraged in the modern day in the UK. There are a few drivers that still do it but they tend to be drivers that started their careers in British Rail where driving aggressive was the norm. We’ve still got drivers who started their careers in the late 1970s and early 1980s, a completely different culture compared to today. Turning up to work drunk or letting the guard drive the train were the norm. As I’ve said upthread, you can hit a 300-350 metre platform and 50-60mph if you really wanted too. It’s a lot more skilful on a HST because of how long it takes for brakes to apply and release. On a 300-350 metre platform, hitting the platform about 30-40mph is what most drivers do. A few % of drivers will do less than that and a few % will be more aggressive than that. (Obviously, if the signal is red at the end of the platform, it's a completely different ball game)

    I've watched quite a few JR and other rail videos from China/Hong Kong in the past. I really like how the guards dispatch the train especially in some videos where they shout commands and point.


    That’s sensible. In fact that is the instruction for my company where if we are starting on a single yellow, we are not to accelerate to more than 30mph in order to reduce the risk of a Start on yellow (SOY) SPAD.



    Which signals are you referring to (or what rough location)?



    Fair enough. I hardly play TSW to be honest and when I do, I try to drive as I would in real life because I don't want to develop bad habits. But I can understand a lot of people won't see it that way as they want points/Gold medal. In real life, being late is normal and drivers are not supposed to chase time by heavy braking, etc... When encountering cautionary aspects, on a route like SEHS and ECW, I aim to be doing no more than 30-40mph past the single yellow.[/QUOTE]
    Thanks for the long reply :P
    I was a bit busy today so can't think of the serious reply I should give, so I give some thoughts I had in my mind first :P
    For Safety System: You will get the painful EB on HST if change cab without shutting the safety device, really hate that :(
    For Aggressive Driving: I can't imagine a Class 101 aggressively enter platform and stop in time with a drunk driver, guess BR's driver are so skillful that they can memorize the route half-drunk and stop the train at the point, perhaps the driver is not even a driver but the guard.
    Probably my driving skill is worse than the half-drunk guard :P
    For Signal: There is a 166 service at around 15/1700, 1 full and 1 sector service dispatch together and if you are on the full one and (as commen sense suggested) set up the train before moving, you will got yellow until Hayes :P
    For Score: I personally don't mind the score that much, just I want to get the gold medal before playing as real life. But the habit of not delay any second was (again) influenced by DenSha Go and the JR style culture behind---every second count. Beside most of the train I take was metro style, probably I suit Bakerloo more than Eastcoastway :P
     
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  50. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Member

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    Hmmm, looks like the post got a bit messed by me, not really sure how the old style forum code work as :(
     
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