I wouldn’t know about the latter as I deemed the hobby far too expensive even a few years ago. But I do wish I had hung on to some of the more valuable items rather than selling dirt cheap on EBay.
If I every go back into model railways it would be O gauge. It seems better value for money plus looks better. There are a lot of O gauge RTR loco's and stock available. I just need to clear some space in my spare room. I get the feeling with O gauge you only need a couple of engines, a couple of carriages and a few wagons to get enjoyment out of it. Even the scenery doesn't seem to need to be as detailed. I did get bored of railway modelling though, driving the same trains along the same short section of track. I think if you get into the actual modelling side it is more rewarding, sadly I just want to run trains. Plus it seems insanely expensive now, even second hand models aren't cheap.
I weather and detail and kit build. Also try and get involved on the tech side. Part of the problem is the cost which puts people off doing anything to their models as it devalues them. I am not buying them as an investment anyhow and the time spent detailing is worth it. I currently do N gauge which rarely sees detailed models and did have a spell in O gauge but got bored after a loco going along a 8 foot layout barely moves. The cost is expensive for O once you realise wagons and coaches can be in 3 figure amounts.
O Gauge in the garden would be a dream, but only if you win the National Lottery! Actually thinking about reliability, the stuff made in the late 70’s and early 80’s did have a few flaws. Lima diesel outline locos tended to be fitted with traction tyres, which spread dirt on the railhead and eventually threw off. I had a couple of Hornby Class 25’s, which after a bit of use both developed a screeching gearbox as the cogs weren’t meshing properly. But still, I did enjoy the feel and even the smell to some extent of warm electric motors and light sewing machine oil permeating from a well run traction unit. I also remember buying a MTK Class 120 DMU kit, which I had to bung a work colleague (now sadly RIP) £10, to put together for me. And as it only had a single powered bogie from a Hornby Class 101, it was forever getting gapped and stuck on electrical breaks and insulfrog points.
I am lucky to have a reasonable sized spare room, when I get round to clearing the junk out of it. If I could arrange a railway around 3 and bit sides it would be decent for an O gauge branch line layout, I understand what you are saying though. I have had OO gauge and more recently N gauge (I still have some) but I find it too small and fiddly. I feel with O gauge despite the high prices of rolling stock, you don't need as much. However it could be that I would still find it boring. I haven't got the skillfull hands for kit-building or the time really, I admire those who do. I will probably never get round to it though as the spare room has been in a state for five years!
The Hobby is rewarding and frustrating sometimes in equal measure. Similar really to Trainsim in that regard. The one thing I note about Models is that newer liveries and types of train are popular (People seem obsessed with DRS for example) also BR blue and late Green era seem to be popular, Sector era people like me who think the railway stopped in 94 are catered for in limited numbers (Same in train sim!!).
You dont need as much in O that is true and you will find storing the boxes is a space problem in itself as well as the cost. I have settled in N for now so I can run 12 coach trains and long freights on my layout.
Regarding model railways: I looked through my TT (1:120) collection today and actually found an IC control car that is coming out on August 8th for TSW. I haven't expanded my collection for at least 5 years because the same models keep coming out as new editions almost every year and usually only new private railway color variants are offered. In addition, prices have risen significantly after the pandemic and the inflation confusion. I was actually already switching from analog to digital operation, but since TSW was released in 2018, I've become more of a digital railway player on the Playstation and nowdays I create popular livery variants for TSW models too. I'm actually a fan of digital and real models. But real models usually lead to space problems, as every display case is full at some point, whereas for everything digital a USB stick is usually enough.
Model Railways as hobby is great, specially digital. Prices have increased considerably over the last years, but detail and functionality of the models as well. But I have to say too that you can play with locomotives that are decades old, and have still a market value. Digital content not. I will continue investing in my two hobbies though, model railway and TSW. P.S. I do have the IC cab car in HO too.
Personal preference plays a role. I have zero use for Suffragette or London Commuter. Therefore they are worth nothing to me. That's why it's necessary to look at both sides of a trade. (Also why Marxism always fails, but that's getting beyond the scope of this thread) =-)
Can't they make those trains look more realistic? They look like plastic: would be my first complaint
It's only relevant because people seem to be confused about how "value" works. "Value" isn't a fixed thing, but rather an agreement between parties so they each compromise. Neither buyer nor seller gets 100% of what they want, but they each end up with something. Marxism is just the extreme example of when you ignore individual perspectives and set a "fixed price" that doesn't reflect that negotiation process. But, to avoid scaring people who see certain words and have an anueryism.... I'll keep it simple. Summary: If devs get too greedy, no new projects happen. If players get too greedy, no new projects happen. So both sides lose. The key is to find a "middle ground"... but it's not just one sale, it's marketing to thousands of people. Individual people saying "well I personally...." doesn't really mean much beyond the anecdotal. What they look at are sales figures which prove what people WILL and WILL NOT spend on what. The only real question in this case is... what benchmark does this product compare with to set a price point? We haven't really HAD one of these "high fidelity" trains in the game yet, so it'll be interesting to see if people see it as more valuable or not. If people treat it like "just another train" and demand that cost point... it will fail because it takes 2-3 times as much work to make and the devs will just go back to lower-level trains. If people DO pay more for more features, then you'll see more of this level of content. Only the sales figures will show which is true.
Do we really wanna get into this here in this thread? It was an example given to support a different point, not an in depth discussion of sociopolitical macro theory. If you'd like to start a thread on that in the "Off Topic", go for it. I don't think the mechanisms of fixed economies is pertinent to the price of the 101, but I'm sure people will love a socio-political thread you want to create there.
For me living in Greece tbh, I find the price of EXPERT DB BR101 Expensive BUT also Fair for the amount of work on it. We asked for expert loco(s), and now we are getting it. However, it's sad that users (including me) who have the old TSW2 DB BR 101 will not get a discount because of " old DLC made by DTG and newer DLC is from our external partner TSG", I call that big BS. Monthly Wages & Expenses are different in every Country, and understandably people are furious and find it (very) expensive. Overall, am waiting to see more Impressions/Gameplay/Bugs by the community and I will probably buy it in the next 2-3 weeks to a month after release just to be sure.
No I dont, dont bring it up. Its super weird, doesnt have anything to do with the topic and you're also confidently wrong on it. Very strange
Well I respectfully disagree from a professional perspective, but no, it doesn't belong on this thread. Feel free to bring it up in the other thread if you wish. My original point remains unchanged. "Fair" is entirely subjective based on who you ask. It's not an objective thing.
Imagine you have a Ford car. Then you buy a Chevy car. They both drive on the same road, but are built by two different companies. Would Chevy give you a discount because the new car is "sort of like" the old Ford car? Because while it is in name a 101, it's a VERY different product and is made by two different companies. Why would DTG give you money for buying TSG's product?
Because it's the same product maybe .......... Just some fancy features and a cab car. It's just logical for a small discount, just like what happened with the TSW4 preorder.
It's not the same thing though... it's like comparing a livery to a full train. The devs say it takes 3 times the work to create from scratch. It's not the same company. The only thing the same is that it's depicting a 101. It's not an "upgrade" of an existing project from the same company, like when DTG improves a route. That's the same product and the same company. They both run in the same GAME created by DTG, but DTG did not make the new 101. They just share the same railway tracks (and even then it's not the same thing because they don't run on all the same routes)
Let's finish it here. Again at the end of the day, even if it's "made by a different studio = Different product" we can agree it is Both Expensive and Fair pricing. End of discussion
The original BR101 might have been marketed as a DTG product but I'm almost certain TSG had some involvement. In fact fairly certain I recall Maik coming on the forum to explain how the "controlled" wheelslip worked.
You're confusing the company TSG, which consists of ever changing contractors, and Maik's work as a second party, doing contract jobs for DTG like setting up SimuGraph. In that case, he gets a normal salary / negotiated payment for that job from DTG, whereas the Expert Line is his own 3rd party company's work, income depending on the sales and DTG only getting their share as publisher (nothing to lose for them really in case of the Expert 101 failing as DTG themselves have not paid for development of it). This is all on Maik's shoulders, who then pays his other TSG subcontractors, depending on the deal they made.
I hate getting into this kind of argument, but "Just some fancy features and a cab car" is exceedingly deminishing of what this actually represents. It's not because one doesn't see that more went into this that the work isn't there at all. The "some fancy features" is over 120 simulated with their own message in the MTD screen, realistic faults just on the BR101, with 114 functional circuit breakers, 15 valves, extensive work on its physics, the ZDE/Train Data system, a GSM-R system, almost all buttons being functional too.. And then we can get into the Cab-Car if you want, which is not only a new model, but also has most buttons functional, 50 circuit breakers, more internal faults with fairly complicated steps to diagnose and fix, which may or may not involve the BR101 itself too. Oh and let's not forget the extensive manual you just got access to. And if that's not enough, it's already been announced that this only expanding in the future. I'm not gonna comment on whether or not the price tag is justified or not, that's not something I am qualified to talk about. But just saying, it's not because you haven't been able to appreciate the work that has gotten into it that it isn't there at all. It very much is.
That's what I was trying to express in an earlier post. Maybe the TSW playerbase is just not the right target market, and this will stay a one off experiment that shows what's possible in TSW, but not economically viable (and probably unfortunately many don't care about, having trouble even starting a simple DMU not realising the DRA is set. This is not me judging individuals, but observing the target audience. Most want to push the handle forward without needing to do any setup, and what most want is what will sell and what will be produced.)
There IS a market for it. Other games that are more detailed prove that. There have been people pushing for this in TSW. Just not sure it's BIG enough segment of actual customers. I for example 100% support it EXISTING. I just have no intention of buying it. And they make zero money on people saying "good job" but not buying anything. It's that same argument... will people put their money down to support what they say? I am very interested to see where this goes.
Me too, but my observations are rather pessimistic for future Expert stuff (which can only done by 3rd parties if proven to be economically successful, as DTG have stated expert locos are not in their portfolio.) Largely pessimistic because the developers are pushed into a need to justify the price, which is somewhat unpleasant. They won't make much money with it. It's a passion project, just like the "Reentry" simulator which I talked about in the Enough is Enough thread.
Let's clear some things up. For the average player it's "Just some fancy features and a cab car" with double the price. Let's agree to disagree on that...... End of discussion. I personally appreciate the TSG team behind the work.......It's top-notch work. The same goes for the DB BR 218 locomotive. And gladly pay the price for DB BR101 Expert + Manual for the amount of pages and translation done. In the pricing category, we all have families to feed but the price it's in the grey zone as I said "Expensive but Fair".
I have a hunch (that I admit I can't confirm it) that TSW is unique in that it's a rare console-based train sim. Therefore, console players don't have a choice to "go somewhere else" for their sim needs. Therefore, EVERYTHING has to be shoehorned in or they lose out. Many of them admit they have no plans to get a PC where they could branch out into other more specialized sims, so it's "TSW or nothing." Like I said, I don't have a lot of direct evidence of it, but the numbers seem to indicate that's a strong possibility. That's why we're told steam NEEDS TO BE IN TSW... because "you can't get it anywhere else if you're on console"... so I'm guessing that relates to "expert level locos" and "longer routes" and other niche desires. When you only have one train outlet, it has to become everything to everyone. Everything they see in another game HAS to come to TSW because that's the only access point for consoles. Could be wrong... but it makes sense. Also explains why people complain so much... they feel they have no other options and are being "forced" into accepting what is in TSW. It's not "real" force of course in that they're choosing to limit themselves to consoles for gaming, but it FEELS that way to them.
That comes down to individual decisions of each player, just as DTG might make decisions that are unpopular but allow them to survive and feed their families. Some can't afford a PC, DTG can't afford to invest in steam engines. Those who want it consider themselves to be a left behind target market and will insist on the market being big enough without having numbers, but if the market isn't big enough (and the core engine has limitations) no one's willing to invest, as devs need to feed their families too. And like it or not - profitability is the most important figure in business. Writing a 140 page manual and simulating 100+ internal systems is everything but profitable in train simming. It's rather foolish from an economical standpoint (don't get me wrong, I'm consciously expressing it that way. The existence of this thread is indicator enough.) DTG can do many things that are unpopular also because there is no real competition. SimRail is just something else with a clear Multiplayer target audience, which is great because they are filling an empty space - would be rather silly making a TSW rival with yet again UK/US stuff, so they are on their own territory with what they're doing, probably funded by larger companies (PKP). Zusi is funded by the Pro version and selling control stands for 100,000 € or whatever. Run8 don't have marketing, just doing their passion software next to their daily jobs, never adjusting prices or doing sales. "Take it or leave it - we're not depending on it to be a blockbuster." You can't get rich or satisfy monetary greed by developing train sims - the wrong place. Even Microsoft discovered that, and while they could have funded MSTS2 they chose to abandon it to never return again - no profit here.
I think you're spot on here. Without getting into the reasons Marxism doesn't work: this whole discussion boils down into both ends of the deal - the consumer and the company (in this case DTG with TSG) - having to come to some sort of compromise in their valuations, as you say. If I wish to buy an Apple and I am charged £100 for it, that would ridiculous. If I wish to buy an iPhone for 1p, that too would be ridiculous. TSG may believe the 101 is worth more and there is definitely an arguement to be had, but when we can get 3 routes (with 3 trains) for the same price (TSW4 Standard, that is) then it's clear to see the other arguement. We decided that Gold was valuable when it's no different to anything else found under this Earth, just shiny, so you're right with the whole Value thing. Some people will find the 101 worth it for the extra detail/shiny new features - others won't. I'm mostly annoyed because I only have an interest in the Cab Car, not any of the "expert" features. If they offered the 101+Cab Car in a cheaper standard edition (or even just a discount for 101 owners) then I would be a bit happier. I certainly don't value the 101 at the same as the Core Bundle.
I quite honestly wish we had discounts for existing owners of tsw4. Feels a con not having a discount if I am honest. Like when you get a ps4 version of a game and there's an upgrade to a ps5 version available at £10 or so.
I meant that I have a feeling it's going to be full price and will be silly if they didn't have a discount for existing users
I certainly don't value the 101 at the same as the Core Bundle.[/QUOTE] You haven't explained why it would logically be a discount besides you "feel" like you want a discount. There are no "existing users" of a product that isn't out yet. That's impossible.
You haven't explained why it would logically be a discount besides you "feel" like you want a discount. There are no "existing users" of a product that isn't out yet. That's impossible.[/QUOTE] I mean for users of tsw4 should get a discount for a new version like people get already with owning a base game for example (standard edition) and upgrading to the deluxe edition for say an extra £10 or £15 only. Or owning a ps4 version of a game and then getting a next generation version.
I mean for users of tsw4 should get a discount for a new version like people get already with owning a base game for example (standard edition) and upgrading to the deluxe edition for say an extra £10 or £15 only. Or owning a ps4 version of a game and then getting a next generation version.[/QUOTE] I think several different things are being discussed in the "pricing" thread and being confused. I thought you were talking about the 101, but you're talking about TSW 5.... which I guess is fine since neither has been released yet. officially? But maybe we need to clarify better which we are discussing? Or other "pricing" issues?
I agree with this. "Expensive but Fair". As others, my only issue is that I was happy with the old DB BR 101, I do not need the expert one (unfortunately I have no time for expert locos), but I really want the IC cab car, and it is available but bundle with the expert loco. But again, I consider the price to be fair.
I'm not sure if the new cab car is compatible with the old 101. I thought the devs said it wasn't? I kinda think DTG needs to make a low-res version to go with the older 101 to keep it compatible. Then again, I haven't gotten into the weeds on the details of the 101 since it doesn't interest me. It does sound like a ready-made project that DTG could do relatively easily and sell a lot of.
It’s just a small minority though. I got banned for over a week for arguing after having the gaul to be unhappy about a possible new game and getting into arguments. Most people will pay because there’s no alternative and dtg know it. This is the first piece in testing the water, they will try it with others in the future. This is focus entertainment we are talking about here.
Con is another word which should be on the disingenuous and inaccurate phrases forum bingo card! It gets used quite often.
Hah, with TSW you save a lot of money by the fact, digital trains dont require a huge amount of physical space.
