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Pzb Modes For Freight On German Routes

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by doublefine7, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Some also still working REs from Hamburg.
     
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  2. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Berlin is quite not representative my friend ;) The BR 146 and Talent 2s are more common since they are mostly the main passenger locos and EMUs.
     
  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The OBB procured the Taurus as a true universal engine, and freely assigns them to whatever job is needed (except for the ones painted in Railjet livery, which pretty much do only RJs).

    Fun fact: the Taurus holds the world speed record for a conventional locomotive (357 km/h)
     
  4. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about DB86108 BR 185 double formation it's made up of Haabiins paper roll transporters Laaers 560 Shimms steel wagons and Zacns tanker wagons. Here's my gameplay with Pzb for 20 minutes . Thing is it's Mode U set but max speed is Mode M. The platform I use to play TSW 2020/ TSW 2 is Xbox series X.
     
  5. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    How to calculate the braking percentage. Sum of braking weights of the whole train / weight of the whole train x 100. Read the braking weight from the wagons. It is usually given in tonnes. It is bordered in red by České dráhy. We check the result in the table and it determines the PZB mode. I have the table in my native language, but it can also be downloaded in English.

    IMG_20200918_160034~2.jpg

    IMG_20210328_090245.jpg
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I understand. If Mode U is set then max speed is Mode U. Besides, if those wagons are loaded then their Vmax is 100.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2021
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  7. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    When PZB is in U mode, the maximum train speed is 105Km / h. Or the maximum permitted speed of the slowest wagon in the train. The reason is for the train to stop safely on the 1 km railway line.
     
  8. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    the maximum permitted speed is one thing - under PZB permitted speed is another story (U/O) :)
     
  9. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I watched the video. It looks like you wound up in Mode M. When you turned PZB on, it was in a default of Mode M. It won't let you change PZB modes without turning PZB off and then back on again.
     
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  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As always with railways, the lowest applicable speed limit governs. Which is why it's common with German freight to have a Mode M train that is still limited to 100.
    Book value 105; in reality 100, since DB regs mandate 5 km/h under PZB limits
     
  11. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Dont forget that you can change PZB modes only when the Loco doesnt move. PZB has to be turned off, then change the mode and then turn PZB back on.
     
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  12. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Actually the 5 kmh thing is a thing drivers do not necessarily because there is a mandate but because incab speedometers tend do be not fully precise and that 5 kmh is utilized as a buffer.
     
  13. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Caution: BR 182 is set to O by default always, even when pulling freight wagons.
    PS
    And what I mean here is that this is more about the braking curve than maximum speed.
    edited for error correction - thx, Mate :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2021
  14. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    No, the 182 is set to O (165 kmh Vmax) since its main use is on passenger trains on RT (which btw is the wrong rolling stock for the route but whatever :D ).
     
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  15. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, but it was an OBB 12xx aka DB BR 183 not a 182.
     
  16. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    What I meant is this I had it set to mode U because of the double formation and had paper rolls Haabiins Shimms Steel Rolls Laaers 560 car Transporter and a Zacns tanker wagon. before departing Aschaffenburg for Gemünden should I check for those weight ratings then turn on PZB for proper Mode.
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Before doing anything else with a German freight train, determine which PZB mode applies- you can do it the official way, as Richard laid out above, or you can use a quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for game purposes (real life DB drivers get more than 60 seconds to prepare!) - over/under about 1600t train weight isn't far off. Then set PZB mode, then turn it on.
     
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  18. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Can someone confirm whether they have updated the brakes to reflect the brake weights printed on the wagons, or do all freight wagons brake the same?

    About what PZB mode to use:
    From my understanding the PZB mode is determined by a table similar to what Robert CZE posted, this will be the PZB mode used by the driver.

    After this is done there are also tables that the drivers (or dispatcher, not sure) use to determine the maximum speed they can travel at. This maximum speed is determined from the Bremshundertstel (total brake weight / train weight), the lowest maximum speed of all the wagons in the train, the signal distance (distance from main signal to advance signal, usually 1000m but can be lower on some routes) and the maximum grade on the route.

    Even if the train has enough brake weight to stop in 1000m from, say 100 km/h, on flat grade, if the grade is descending greatly this might not be enough. So it is not too uncommon for trains to be limited to 90 km/h on heavy ore/coal/aggregate trains or even as low as 70-80 km/h if the brakes are really poor and the grades are steep.

    As an example: On MSB I think the maximum grade is 2.2 % so if the BrH is 65 the PZB mode will be U but the maximum speed in the descending direction will be 75 km/h (!) according to this table:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/bar/0/05/Bremstafel.png.

    Last point: If they haven't updated the brakes, last I checked the deceleration of all freight trains was 0.8m/s^2 which corresponds to about BrH 100, so the PZB M can be safely used and the max speed on MSB is 100 km/h in both directions. This is of course unrealistic but you will not SPAD (due to poor brake performance at least) if you use these settings.
     
  19. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I have bad information for you. I haven't noticed any changes. They didn't mention it on the occasion of the updates. Hopefully I'm not too perceptive (astigmatism). Absolutely honest and no kidding - not really (in my opinion).
     
  20. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    They didn´t even correct the overall PZB behaviour for freight. It checks that 23s after 1000Hz you are below 85 (so same as a passenger train) and then it checks the freight speed afterwards at 29s or 38s from the 1000Hz magnet. It should just check the freight speed at the corresponding time, but not that 85 in between. Indeed in most cases it´s impossible to reach 85 in so short time unless you go full braking and you are not on a downhill. In a downhill is definitelly impossible even with full braking.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  21. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Main Spessart Bahn 2.2% grade is the Laufach to Heigenbrücken section via Schwartzkopf Tunnel that's why you have some services like DB86109 Aschaffenburg-Gemünden and DB88120 Gemünden Frankfurt Mainz via Aschaffenburg being double formation so that they don't have to use banker locomotives. However they're going to be PZB U mode due to the double locomotive set up. I'm on the Xbox Series X Xbox One community.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
  22. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Another thing I wish they would let us control on the German locomotives is the air brake application rate (similar to Goods - Pass timings on the class 66). On German (and probably most UIC regulated locomotives) there will be 3 air brake settings:
    R = Rapid, P = passenger and G = Goods (or Güter?).
    These settings control the brake rates in each vehicle (every wagon/locomotive has it's own valve)
    R-brake has the same application rate as P (3-5 seconds to apply full service and 15-20 seconds to release) but the difference is that at higher speeds the brake cylinder pressure is increased to counteract lower friction at high speeds in tread brakes.

    Passenger trains will almost always use R, while lighter freight trains use P.
    G-brake is the slowest settings. It takes 18-30s for brakes to fully apply and 45-60s for the brakes to release.

    UIC rules state (freight trains):
    0-600t P/P (loco in P, wagons in P)
    600-1200t G/P (loco in G, wagons in P)
    1200-1600t LL ("Lange lok", loco and 5 first wagons in G, rest in P).
    1600t + G/G

    TSW2 only simulates the last option which is not very realistic for the 800-1200t trains used. When the train is in G/P the locomotive will take 18-30s to apply but the wagons will only take 3-5s to apply, this is meant to prevent the rear of the train slamming into the front due to the delay in application from the propagation speed of the air pressure signal. The effect of this setting would be that you get most of the brake effect earlier than the 18-30s (around 3-5 + 8-10s, 13s average for the 300-400m trains used). A 10s difference on average compared to the TSW2 G/G.

    A compromise would be for DTG to either simulate G/P or leave all wagons in P-brake and let the player control the locomotive setting.
     
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  23. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    It would be useful if the information page now available in TSW 2 would tell us which PZB mode the train should be in. I find the calculations too complex for my simple, non-mathematical mind lol.
     
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  24. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    That would be the ideal thing but that would require them to actually know how these things work irl. Until then a good rule of thumb is: Anything heavier than 1600t is PZB mode U. Everything below that is M except for passenger trains and single units which are O.
     
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  25. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a source for this statement, because I have never heard such a thing (but maybe my knowledge here is simply lacking).

    From what I have been told/read the PZB Zugart is tied to the BrH, not train mass. The train mass will affect the Bremsstellung however (above 1200t you have Lange Lok: loco and first five wagons in G-brake) which may drop the BrH down below the 66 BrH limit for PZB M if it was very close to begin with since wagons in G-brake have a factor 0.8 multiplied to their bremsgewicht iirc.

    But if the BrH is above 66 even in LL then I don't think it will be driven in PZB U?
     
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  26. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    The calculation is simple. Sum of all brake scales. They are written on wagons and locomotives. Values are in tons. Divide this value by the total weight of the train and multiply by 100. Brake percentage / train weight * 100 = brake percentage. Insert the data into the table in this forum and you will find out what settings you have for PZB.
     
  27. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know. That wasn't what I responded to.

    doublefine7 Mentioned a rule of thumb for PZB Zugart that depended on mass, not brake weight. I have never heard of this before.

    The reason I mentioned BrH (brake percentage) in the context of train mass maybe causing a change in PZB setting is that for wagons in bremsstellung G it is a rule to multiply the brake weight by 0.8, that means that the BrH of the train will change if you go from G/P to LL.

    Example: We have a train of one BR185 and 12 loaded Zacns wagons. Since train weight is 1146 tonnes the setting is G/P which gives the BrH = (77 + 12*58)/(84 + 12*90)*100 = 66. Hence PZB M can be used.

    Now add one more wagon and the BrH in G/P would still be rounded down to 66 which means PZB M can be used, but since the mass now exceeds 1200t the Bremsstellung has to be changed from G/P to LL which means that we need to multiply 5 of the wagons brake weights by 0.8. The BrH then becomes

    BrH = (77 + 5*0.8*58 + 8*58)/(84 + 13*90)*100 = 61! Thus just the addition of 1 wagon will reduce PZB Zugart from M to U.

    The rule for reducing bremsgewicht with G-brake to a factor of 80% is used in Sweden and iirc it is a UIC rule so I think it should hold for Germany but someone with more specific knowledge of German railroads can maybe correct me if I'm wrong.
     
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  28. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    The calculation of brake percentage in Germany is actually slightly different. For brakes in G you usually take 25% off. Also the length of the train plays a big role. Generally, as long as your train is not heavier then 800t and shorter the 500m, you just calculate it as described by Richard CZE. Otherwise it starts to get quite complicated. I have a table, somewhere, showing all the cases for DB. If someone is interested, please let me know.

    Also, just to mention, even if breblimator has mentioned it already, the max speed of the PZB mode only references the max speed possible in this mode. The actual max speed of the train in this mode may very well be less. The main factors (besides max speed of the slowest car, however, not so relevant in this discussion) are topography of the route and the calculated brake percentage. In Germany it is given to the drivers through its officially published timetables.
     
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  29. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    After the match, you could look for this table :)
     
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  30. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested in the document :D

    Also about lower speeds than the PZB Zugart gives, perhaps you are thinking about something like this: https://bar.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Bremstafel.png

    Although I imagine that drivers have tables for a specific route so they don't have to look up maximum grade percentage and can just take the BrH and then get a Vmax.
     
  31. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Finally, found it. Had to fire up my old laptop, luckily it didnt go anywhere and was still sitting there, where I left it;)
    upload_2021-7-12_11-19-5.png

    This table summarises the the equivalent ril, it is not, however, the official document.

    cwf.green , exactly what I had in mind. This is how it is calculated for specific routes. When a route is applied for, a timetable is issued, which takes all of this into account.
     
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  32. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Great! My German is not very good, could you explain what the -30% and similar values are for? Is it the percentage you decrease the braked weight by?

    Also, when is the whole train (6-x) in G-brake?
     
  33. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    The percentage values are exactly what you have thought they were. This is the amount you have to subtract off the actual published breaking weight of this part of the train.

    For your second question. You are allowed to run cars 6-x in braking mode P, but only if your wagons are heavier then 32t or 40t, depending on the weight of the rest of the train. Example, you run a 1800t train with a length of 700m. If you pull cars weighing less then 32t, you need to put the whole train into G.
    EDIT: forgot to mention that you need to have a certain type of coupling between the cars, otherwise, again, all in G
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can tell, TSW does not model, visually, the wagon brake timing handles in different positions: they are fixed visual assets like the windows. What I can't tell is whether the physics model accounts for different settings internally (on US trains and the Class 66, they are modeled)
     
  35. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    You are right! They are not modelled on separate cars. But it would be really interesting to know how the physics are simulated for long and heavy trains on other trains then US and class66.

    Anybody knows?
     
  36. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Currently the only locomotive that models variable Pass/Goods (UK equivalent of P/R or G) timings with a functioning switch is the Class 66.
    In BR185.2 iirc the switch is on the back panel (?) but it is not even modelled (switch isn't seen in TSW2).

    All German freight wagons are fixed in either G (old preserved content) or P (Hamburg-Lübeck and maybe RRO Sggmrss wagons).

    For old content the time to apply brakes was around 24s and time to release 55s, for newer content the times are 3-5s and 10-20s.

    OpenMinded Did I understand you correctly that if the train weight is above 1601t, all the wagon weights are above 40t but none of the couplers are UIC-AK then every vehicle in the train is to be put in G-brake?

    Also, what does the right column mean? Does it just mean that if the left columns command the train to be placed in G (for example my sentence above) then up to 12 axles can still be in P? So it does not tell you when the train must be in G, just what exemptions can be made if the left columns told you to place all the vehicles in G?

    And also the right-bottom element: If all vehicles should be in G and train length is 701-815m then no axle can be in P-brake and bremsgewicht is reduced by 5%?
     
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  37. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Thanks for the explanation of the implementation of the subject into TSW. I was not aware, however, interesting how they have chosen to implement it. Would be really great if it could be improved with future DLCs.

    To your questions (sorry, no idea yet how multi quote works on this forum):
    1) (Brakes in P above 1601t): For 1601t to 2500t the cars need to be above 32t. The 40t rule is for weights above 2501t.

    2) All cars need to be coupled with UIC-AK, otherwise G.

    3) The right column is only for trains where the timetable is already requested in G, hence it takes other presumptions into account...

    4) Your last assumption is correct. No P allowed above 701m and you need to subtract 5%.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
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  38. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I had completely missed a crucial detail in your description. I thought that the heavy freight trains in the game would still be run at G-brake on the locomotives and P-brake on the wagons (or G-brake on the first 5 wagons) but according to your point 2) since none of the German freight trains in TSW have AK-couplers they need be in G-brake on the full train. This means that the BrH is reduced by 25% and the Vmax will be quite limited (80 km/h on many routes with 10 per mille grades).
     
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  39. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Yes, very good point! You are absolutely right. In fact, it’s not a very common coupling in Germany. To my knowledge it’s only used on very heavy ore trains.
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What we really need to know, is which brakes are perma-set in TSW. Or if they aren't perma-set and really do vary between P and G (or even R), then under what circumstances.. The handles on the wagons themselves are of no use, because they're a static graphic model and never change no matter what. Anyone want to do some timed brake tests?

    Nor would I attach much significance to the couplers as modeled graphically , because at least to date and for the foreseeable future TSW's physics model Simugraph does NOT model coupler failure (although it would make Sand Patch and Clinchfield a lot more interesting if it did!)
     
  41. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    C-Akv couplers are used by DB BR151 & DB BR189 the way that you can tell the locomotive if it has C-Akv couplers is a yellow warning triangle. PZB Mode U 6 kilotons Faals 150 & Falrrs 151 wagons. Falns 183 RSN should be the closest equivalent to a Faals 150 using Chain coupler
     
  42. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    We'll see what happens when DRA is released :)
     
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