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Re-use Of Rolling Stock

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by markhazeldine, May 4, 2021.

  1. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    Off the back of DTG Protaganist's comments on the stream tonight about DTGs "lightbulb moment" regarding re-using existing stock, I'd like to share my thoughts.

    1) I'm quite shocked that you've only just realised this is a problem. People have been moaning about this for at least 6 months (probably longer). Surely it's obvious that if you release a lot of almost the same train, people are going to get bored of it and think you're being lazy? I mean, I get that it's a lot of work to change a 377 into a 387, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that they're basically the same train to 90% of train fans. I live pretty close to the BML and know a lot about trains, but I couldn't tell you the difference between the two until I looked it up. Anyway, at least the lightbulb is finally on!

    2) I totally get that you want to use the right stock on the right routes. Makes sense. I also totally get that you want to maximise efficiency and if you can re-use work you've already done to make a new route (like re-using the 377 and the Brighton station models from East Coastway for BML) to allow you to bring content out faster, then I do think that's a sensible business decision. I also think it makes sense to get a decent amount of use out of a train. I don't mind seeing the same train on 2...maybe 3 routes at a push. 4 is too much, only 1 is not enough. For example, it's disappointing that the 465 can only be used on a single route right now. It's one of the best trains in the game, and it can only be driven to a small amount of stations. We need another Southeastern route (preferrably not Chatham/Medway). Something different and new, but that can use that train.

    3) Given points 1 and 2, I wouldn't say you should stop re-using content, but what I would say is that there needs to be a balance, and make sure that when you're selecting routes to build or stock to make for a route, that you ensure there's enough variety and "newness" to make a new DLC worth buying. Each new route (at least at this early stage in the game's life) ought to at least add 1 totally new train to the game, otherwise it will be seen as boring/lazy. If a route doesn't require that, then perhaps the route isn't a great choice right now? The only exception would be if that new route allows you to use a previously released train on more routes, if currently can only be used on 1 route (e.g. 465).

    For BML, while a 387 is nice to have (and see as AI), the driving experience will be very similar to the 377 and doesn't add much to the game for me personally. It would have been much nicer to see a 455/8 so that we could have a totally different driving experience and run more suburban routes or a Thameslink 700 Desiro City maybe.
     
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  2. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think with Germany and DTG sticking with the current time period that they plausibly struggle since a lot the stock in game is pretty common across the network, so either they’ll have to start going with modern diesels soon or they’ll need to change periods.

    The UK really just needs a different area doing, the BML has long been requested by the community so I understand them doing that, but I really hope that we move away from the south going forward, Cathcart is an ok enough start on that, but it doesn’t seem like a big hitter on the content front, one unit for an entire TOC in Glasgow is a bit underwhelming, Rivet coming through with a modern diesel route is looking good though, depending on what stock we actually get, hopefully DTG will now focus on TOCs such as TFW/Northern/Avanti/EMR/SWR, each having their own unique units to offer for the modern era.

    As for the US anything goes at the moment, we don’t really have much at all so on one hand it’s pretty disappointing that we are getting 1 returning loco and another which is a variation of a loco we have, but having NA passenger services debuting in TSW2 is only a good thing, regardless of stock.
     
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  3. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I can pretty much agree with a lot of what has been said in the 2 previous posts, but we need to be careful with what we ask for.
    Most people is not happy with the decision to re-use the low door Dostos in HHL, as an obvious example.
     
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  4. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I think that comes down to one big thing, reusing stuff only where appropriate. The Riesa - Dresden lineup makes total sense to me, and as long as current issues with those vehicles are solved, and modifications are made where neccesary, I'm quite happy with the selection, and this does seem the case.

    The talent 2's for Riesa-Dresden will be modified to be the exact same ones that run there IRL, wheras the Dostos for HHL weren't, and that's where the differnce lies. The HHL dosto's are wrong for the route and the Riesa - Dresden locos aren't.

    To me, it is quite a surprise the lightbulb only went on just now, although I'm glad it went on and isn't ignored.

    The afformentioned balance between new and reused is important, and I totally agree with it. One new train and one 'updated' train would do it for me, with the truly unique locos maybe coming as DLC. A route truly feels like it has more value if it has a new shiny thing not seen before, which I've used in many of my route suggestions. However, DTG should of course not waste work, for me driving the 143 on S-bahn services with VVO Dostos and into underground stations (Dresden airport) is still a different enough experience to driving it on RE/RB services on the slower RSN.

    Oh, and as a final note, I really hope Riesa - Dresden wil finally provide more layers for the BR 363 and BR 204.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  5. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree, the next route choices should also consider the stock on the route and that it should be something different to a Talent 2 or Electrostar :)
     
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  6. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Active Member

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    In recent history, it seems that DTG is making use of some really simplified filters/criteria to chose what trains go on a route from the library of rolling stock they already have:

    "We need Dostos for Hamburg - Lubeck!" -> Check the spreadsheet for Dostos -> Found one available -> use that.
    "We need a high-speed train for Riesa - Dresden!" -> Check the spreadsheet for high-speed trains -> Picks one of the two available ICE versions randomly -> use that.

    They are reminded with each stream when people ask "When will you do X route?" that the demand is for new trains, different than what we already have, is very high. It's totally normal to reuse where is needed as per the real-life situation. I would focus in the first years of a project such as TSW on diversity and touching on as many different trains as possible. This can lead to a higher investment but all businesses require heavy investment at the beginning to build a solid base with profits expected to come several years later.

    Most of us have had, and some still do, a passion for model trains. Including Matt.
    As a person that builds his/her layout, I can't imagine one would buy the same trains over and over particularly as there are so many in the world to choose from and make a nice diverse collection.

    With the recent signs we've seen from them, the focus is not on quality but on efficiency (read this as income).
    This is a worldwide phenomenon, unfortunately. You can very, very rarely find a brand that stands by quality and has its values based on quality and quality only.

    When you think about it, when industrialization started in the world, the focus of manufacturers was to build the absolute best (good looking, lasting a lifetime etc.). In present days, the focus is clearly on "consume, consume and consume some more".

    We need to go back to quality, in every field!
     
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  7. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I might have some good news on that front. Even though it's on the steam page, Matt mentioned that they had still not decided about the implememtation of ICE services and were exploring multiple options (maybe an ICE-T loco add-on?). Seems like the 406 being a layer isn't quite sure yet.
     
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  8. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the "almost same" sentiment. I wish there was more variety in the game. Having the same locomotives on different routes, even though they take almost as much work to do as a brand new locomotive, is somehow illogical to me. We now have two Talent 2s in the game, now we're getting a third. Development-wise it's a lot of work, I can accept that (even though I don't necessarily understand why), but from a player's perspective they're the same regardless. Why spend so much work on something several times over? It's just redundant and it ends up feeling the same.

    This is the same thing why I always wish for more countries. Yes, I know GWE is different to SEHS, or MSB is different to RSN, but they're in the same country, the scenery is so similar, it's just not varied enough. There's only so much British green and German urban environment I can enjoy before getting bored with it all. Just as I'd like to drive radically different (looking) trains, I'd also like to see different looking environments. I'd like to see the World, if it's called Train Sim "World" after all. Or just rename the game to Train Sim UK/US/Germany then.

    If developing the same loco for different routes is almost as much work as building brand new ones, then just do the latter! The more variety the better. I accept if it's a fun professional challenge to rebuild the same loco with minor differences, but from a gaming standpoint the result will be boring. Not to mention that building the same loco over and over again leads to bugs and discrepancies. The sound may be great on one route but bad on another, why? The more redundancy there is the harder it gets to fix bugs, graphical glitches or whatever. Imagine if a racing game had to have the same car made all over again for every racetrack.
     
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  9. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    I think each route could have existing stock but should come with at least two brand new ( unrelatedly previous game stock ) rolling stock. There are so many locos and trains out there, We need to add to the collection, not just copy and paste the same stock over and over again.
    The Electrostar has been used twice and now a third with the London-Brighton. Not identical but very very similar. I don’t mind them being used in multiple routes of course but it should be in ADDITION to new stock. Not in the place of.

    The Class 101 has been used at least 2-3 times too, as have the class 08, 66 etc There are so many others they could put their effort into bringing to the game. Class 35, Class 50s, 57s, 67, 150s 153s 156s, 158/159s, Pacers, Class 220/221, Class 180, Class 185, Class 170, Valenta HST,

    With so many to choose from. No reason to recycle other than lazy / max profit practices.
     
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  10. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If the goal is to create a virtual trainset then there needs to be more version control around the rolling stock so there is one of everything that works with other stock and routes because currently DLC packs are hard to mix together, or impossible perhaps. Things are not really truely interchangeable as they are in TS.

    This is why we have multiple copies of the same thing, and they try and justify it by saying something was tweaked in this one, when they could have just adjusted the existing model and patched the changes in. We are even at the point where multiple versions are slightly different because we are waiting for the preservation crew to apply fixes to older ones.

    E.g. the diesel legends could have come with the 117, but the 101s from TVL and NTP could have subbed in, no need for another set of the same thing, the Blue Western could have been a livery for the WSR one plus whatever tweaks they made also applied to that version too. There is no version control with the stock, they are all completely separate (but not different) models, its a bit of a mess at this point.

    We can't use them interchangably and seemingly neither can DTG so we get more and more similar copies but slightly different...

    The day where we have a true consist editor and one of each type and varient of stock and they look and operate the same way when they should, and have the slight differences when they should seems a long way off.
     
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  11. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I see your point but expanding into other countries is just not easy. They can't go like "Okay let's do some italian stuff" - no, they have to understand the signalling, get licenses from train operators, understand how the locos 'work', be able to do research, visit the track, visit the loco, talk to people there. And then: build all the new assets, new scenery etc. etc. Expanding into a new country takes so much time and effort. And tbh, i don't expect this to be done in a pandemic.

    And: We have to ackknowledge, that the effort to expand in other countries is there. We can drive trains in France, in Canada, soon in Scotland and also in Switzerland (though it's Rivet). I'm sure TSW will visit more countries. But don't expect them to do this with a finger snap. The variety in TS has also been built over 10 years.
     
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  12. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    It's not like they're completely ignoring the demand either, they know and mention the Netherlands and Australia are popular, and the team members really want to do Japan too. It's a case of waiting to see if licensing and information gathering will be possible. I really hope we'll see some Dutch routes after Rush Hour myself, as they would perfectly fit the high density in passengers and trains.
     
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  13. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    I do not think that "reusing" is a problem. In my opinion, the real problem is that the improvement/new features added to the new versions of a loco do not get directly ported to the older versions, or ported **months** after release by the preservation crew.
     
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  14. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I do agree, but from a technical standpoint having every new feauture applied to all previous routes immediately is probably impossible.

    I'm just really thankful for the preserved collection crew. They do work we didn't neccesarily pay for, but it is exactly the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back.
    Hopefully the QA problems will soon be solved, making the introduction of new features way quicker (most of those **months** are just spent waiting for QA and a release slot, not the actual work).
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I found it weird that anyone at DTG wouldn't think that maybe people want something different when this forum is all about "different", but maybe they think that a /1 and a /7 ARE different even though they look the same from the outside bar a lick of paint
    Personally I would prefer to have full class differences rather than five different slashes

    Maybe you missed the part about it being as much work make "almost the same" thing as to build completely new...
     
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  16. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    More subclasses means more numbers to use, and provides a number of differences within 377s alone, sounds, interiors, cabs and lights all differ in various ways. As for the work to modify an existing train being as much as building from scratch, it's just a straight lie unless they've really messed up their processes.
     
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  17. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Active Member

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    I can't agree with the comments on the rolling stock. Each new route cannot contain new rolling stock. Over time, we will get more variety in new additions. We must be patient. It cannot be all at once.
     
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  18. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    Subjectively, I am a bit disappointed at the reusing of assets, especially after they first cited wanting variety as a reason not to do route extensions, but I can live with it.

    The real problem, imo, is the pricing becomes a bit skewed. Someone buying three routes might end up with twice the amount of locos as someone buying another three routes, either due to "reskins" or just plain the same locos.

    If there were owner discounts I think much of the complaints could be avoided.

    I appreciate that it takes effort to research a new system, but that is part of their job, after all. This is essentially the same issue of reused assets, only on a larger scale. The main thing I can respect about that whole thing is it would require producing at least a few routes to be worth the effort.

    On the other hand, Train Sim World isn't exactly brand new anymore.
     
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  19. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    As far as I'm concerned they can re use the BR146 on every single german route, as long as we get something new as well. In other words as long as we don't have to buy the same content multiple times.

    For example: HHL could have come with the BR112 and a MRCE Siemens Vectron, with the possibility of subbing the BR182, or, if they wanted to have a freight 182 they could have included the BR218 and the MRCE Taurus.

    As long as one new model is included with new DLC releases, reusing is fine.

    I think a good example is the way german DLCs were done in TSW2020:

    1 - RSN: Two completely new locos (143/185)
    2- MSB: One Reused and 1 new (146/185)
    3 - RRO: One Reused and 1 new (442/185)
    4 - HRR: One Reused and 1 new (422/425)

    At the same time the BR146 is reused on all these routes (except RSN), but it's not a problem even if it's reused 4 times already, counting SKA, HMA and HHL it's 7 times but that's fine because we only bought the loco once (with MSB), and that's the problem with HHL, the 112 is not different and not good enough to be the "completely new" loco and the 182 is not improved or different enough (like the 185.5 compared to the 185.2) to be a decent re-use.

    The problem is not re-using per se, but how it's done, I bet there would have been a lot less complaints if the 112 actually looked good, with good headlights and frontal details, or if they used the correct DoSto models - in fact this is the first time ever we are not getting a new wagon or loco, even RRO added the intermodal wagons, but this is out of what Sam commented on, because the DoStos are the exact same used on MSB.

    What I personally would have done differently if I had to decide the rolling stock for RH:

    London Brighton: Class 377/4 and Class 700
    Riesa Dresden: instead of the BR146 the Twindexx (DoSto EMU - which should operate there and in MSB), and the Acela instead of the F40PH on NEC. But as I said before on other thread, re-using stock in Rush Hour is fine given the price of 1 route (€10).

    For example, I would expect the next LGV to have the 200 Series from LGV Méd togheter with something new, either an Euroduplex (possible sub in HMA), a Thalys PBKA (possible sub in SKA), or even a TGV Reseau
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  20. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I'm very disappointed with this. So what the US is got Clinchfield, and soon Cane Creek and the new NEC route, when in reality we have gotten only one new loco, which is the F7.
     
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  21. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Active Member

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    Nothing important is easy. We have to deal with it.
    It wasn't easy to build the Transcontinental railway in the US, nor tunneling through the Alps, neither later maintaining all of these creations. The accomplishments were fantastic, weren't they?
    This is why we should keep aiming high, not aiming to get rich. There is a reason why there are prizes for excellence and none for mediocrity.

    When DTG decided to choose Unreal engine for their improved game version over Train Simulator, they did it mainly out of convenience and with costs in mind. Paying 5% for all earnings above 3000 $/€ is better than developing your own engine and maintaining it. Don't mention that they get free updates and new features from both Nvidia and Epic.
    I would imagine that they studied before purchasing it if it can accommodate steam engines. 3-4 years into the game and this is still a nebula of how and when it can be added. I can't imagine they chose it because it can build pretty scenery as the scope was to build a train game, not another Far Cry.

    All of us that are in the world of trains have a considerable amount of passion put into this hobby. We love these trains. The feeling of being there and driving one makes us nervous. It's a feeling of greatness when driving an actual iconic locomotive.

    They know this as there are decisions based on psychological studies in their releases.

    The manager/director/CEO of a company should himself be hooked in the field where the product developed is, otherwise the decision made will all be focused on making money.

    As an example, I was involved from day one in building a global security operations center at EA games during the time of the previous financial crisis. Despite job cuts everywhere, we were backed by one of the company's VPs. Anything we needed we obtained. We got funding for tools, for hiring good people, for everything. After some years, the founder decided to leave the company. Within a month under the management of the IT department, staff was halved, most of the projects were canceled or postponed.

    The right people at the top can make the difference between a good company and one that gets lost in the crowd. There is nothing wrong with taking a breather once in a while but I personally am tired of hearing how everything for them is difficult and requires years.
     
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  22. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The impact was huge with the wrong Dostos, it’s a letdown and sell breaker, the coaches are completely different like the windows also. 208E11CD-5107-4BC1-8F62-DB9D1E2D41C5.jpeg
     
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  23. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Considering the time it requires to make a train that looks pretty identical to one we already have, I'd rather have them spend the time to make something that actually offers something different and unique. Totally fine to also include a few existing trains, assuming these can be added in with very low time investment.

    It also doesn't help that I personally dislike driving the Talent 2, it's a shame to see another route featuring this specific train. But that's just a personal thing of mine. I hope something can substitute for the Talent 2 services :P

    The fact that all German routes are modern electrified passenger route doesn't help with the diversity of rolling stock either.

    I don't own the 465 or it assosiciated routes, but being able to use a train only on 1 route (excluding user created scenarios, as those take too much time to set up IMO), is a huge letdown. I quite like the Class 33 but unfortunately WSR seems to be the only route I can use it on. Can't even use it on the railtour services on ECW...

    I agree, each DLC should offer something new. Preferebly a new train (that's actually different) and an interesting route (that's actually different). Doing another modern German passenger route with another Talent 2 offers neither of those. I'd probably still be buying Rush Hour since the price tag for 3 routes is pretty nice, but if it were a stand-alone release, no thanks.
     
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  24. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    That's because it wasn't a problem to DTG. And frankly, people do keep on buying their stuff (I know I do....).

    It is convenient to re-use a vehicle body (the Class 66 has been re-used at least ten times), and it is also convenient to re-use stations (Hagen, Brighton, NYC Penn....). It's also convenient to re-use signalling, track furniture, trees, etc. In some cases it's convenient to re-use an entire TS2012 station build and place it directly into TSW 2 some ten years later (Gillingham station, a perfect vertex to vertex copy....)..... and hopefully that will not be the only process used for the new London/Brighton, because TS2012's London/Brighton might have some circa 2007 textures knocking about from a previous very early Railworks version.....

    Some re-use is desirable, because this is part of what makes the overall production of a wide range of routes routes/gameplay viable. The question though is the balance.... and I think maybe they've not quite got it right this time, with no substantial new bits of rolling stock with these three "Rush Hour" routes. Maybe we will get some new container flats for Dresden though...? Dunno. But then again, the price isn't particularly unreasonable at all, at just a few pennies more than the now Legendary (but unfortunately not mythical) Class 52 partial re-skin.....

    But when they are charging the big bucks for the premium releases during the year, then they should always throw in a few more driving cabs and/or bits of rolling stock with new releases, with a healthy number of scenarios, and the ability to substitute all existing rolling stock into timetable mode services. The DB BR 101 should have come with a cab car, for starters, and be playable in service mode as a sub for the DB BR 182 (and maybe more) on all of the other routes.....The DB BR 101 was an instant buy for me, but they could have broadened the appeal and got very many more sales had they been more flexible with it (thankfully it will run on Dresden),. Maybe third-party routes/locos will always be more restricted....?

    Anyway..... had the three Rush Hour routes been released month after month with no susbtsantially new rolling stock, at £25/$30/€30 a pop..... then that would have been bitterly disappointing. And I would not have bought any of them until they were all on very deep discount, and even then, maybe only the Boston route. But taken as a single purchase for £25, I will be buying this three-pack on day one.... twice... for PS4 and PC.
     
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  25. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    The worst part for me is the low doors next to the high platform looks awful. When passengers go in it looks like they are gonna hit their head with the door. When they go out, it looks like they would need to jump to get on it. It makes me sad each time I see it. No way I'm gonna buy it as it is.
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The two cases are not comparable, though. In the first instance we are talking about the rolling stock which is included as an intrinsic part of the route, which the customer is paying for: in that case, then it had better darn well be correct for the route for which it's being sold. (It therefore is bizarre that DTG would spend so much effort accounting for the interior differences between the Cologne and Dresden 442s, but not even bother to get the Hamburg Dostos right. That is a MAJOR fail.)

    The second instance, however, is simply layering: that is, borrowing a train intact from another route which the player has already paid for, if he has it at all. Layered locos can never be correct, not in every detail, even if it comes down to small things like the depot painted on the frame rail. Layered locos are imported from somewhere else and can never be entirely right.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  27. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, won't complain about layers, though I'm not sure how I feel about the 406 on Riesa - Dresden yet. The Dostos on HHL were a major and surprising fail, they must've seen it coming right?
     
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  28. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The BR 189 is from the Traxx Family also with are driving in Dresden, so it doesn’t mean that DTG can reused the damn BR 185.5 MRCE for Freight Service for this route.
    We need more Freight Locos like the 189 or the 193 Vectron, or some older trains like the 151.
    Look on the side to see the most important difference between a 185 and 189. 293E8663-747C-422A-9EE7-819EEF61228B.jpeg
    3DD3B65D-F336-4B7A-8A28-64369715A569.jpeg
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, the Boston route does include new things: The MBTA coaches will be new, the cab car ("half a loco") will be new, and I'm prepared to call the 64 "new" since in the context of TSW2 it is new.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That isn't really the issue, though- it isn't whether DTG could have built the 189 as a new loco, but whether the 185 is wrong. Clearly it isn't; there's nothing wrong with running 185s in Dresden because they do in RL.
     
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  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In these cases DTG have to make a command decision: "Do we include an empty timetable layer for a train we have not made yet, and may never, or do we fill it with a vaguely similar train?" Keep in mind that in Dresden-Riesa the ICEs are no more than background AI trains, there for flavor only, and so I think on balance it isn't unreasonable just to go ahead and use the white pointy train that already exists, rather than leaving the route ICE-free for some indefinite time in the future until they get around to making the ICE-T, which may be never.

    OTOH, the decision to layer the 422 into SKA is a little bit less supportable, since I am pretty sure that by the time TSW2/SKA was released, DTG had already planned HMA and so they knew the 423 was coming- and this isn't a background train, but a drivable representing the whole of the Koln-Duren S-Bahn traffic. In this case they could have reserved the S-Bahn layer in anticipation of HMA coming out. (Although one might observe that the differences between the two are pretty darn small, not really noticeable except to anoraks and DB trainspotters).

    Note to DTG staff: The way to cut the Gordian knot would be to implement a simple if/then routine into the route-loading sequence, something like "IF HMA is found, THEN load 423, ELSE IF RRO is found, THEN load 422."
     
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  32. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    My issue is that they copied the 185.5 MRCE and don’t give us anything new.
    The 189 want much appreciated.

    I‘m tired of all recycled stuff, or that they don’t give us the Talent 2 in 5 units
     
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  33. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Active Member

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    I appreciate the extra info. In my mind, they are both ending in the same pool, which is adding incorrect rolling stock to a route.

    If I am not mistaking, on Main Spessart Bahn and Rhein-Rhurh Osten there are ICE services that could be added via layers especially that the trains used in services there are already in the game, BR 403 and BR 406.

    If they could leave a gap on routes that are ready to accommodate ICE services accurately, why not take the same decision on a route where they don't yet have rolling stock for it until they are better prepared?

    Maybe one day Adam's team will add these extra layers and timetables if all planets align nicely.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The only ICEs that run on the Main-Spessart Railway are ICE-1s and ICE-Ts, so the 403/406 would be just as "wrong" here as in Dresden. No ICEs run on the Ruhr-Sieg at all.

    Note also that MSB and RSN are old TSW1 routes, made long before there was any idea of including ICEs (that among other things required implementing LZB, which didn't exist in TSW1).
     
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  35. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Active Member

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    This is the thing that’s so confusing to me. They clearly are seeming to put in the effort for accuracy on Dresden, even though the basic rolling stock is reused. In terms of rolling stock, they have said (1) that the pink ONE containers will be added to the container wagons, and (2) that the IC coach-style interactive brake selectors and stuff on the outside of the stock will be added. I’d also assume they’d put the dostos into Dresden S-Bahn paint Ofc. All of this effort, being put into a far longer route than HBL that they will sell for 3x less. Why couldn’t they do this for HBL?? They presumably had the ONE containers, Adam showed them off like a month ago, and the 101 was under development at the same time as HBL! If they are saying that this is what they will do on Dresden, it makes Hamburg look much worse in terms of effort, even without considering high floor vs. low door dostos.
     
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  36. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    The ICE's that run on MSB are very much the ICE 3s (and ICE-Ts too). They wouldn't be wrong there. The video below shows ICE 3s and ICE-Ts exiting/entering the Scwarzkopftunnel near Heigenbrucken (at 2.30 the first ICE 3 appears).



    Indeed there aren't any ICE's on RSN, but there are many on RRO (though the ICE 3 can be seen there only a few times a day, most services there are ICE 1 and 2.)
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  37. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Active Member

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    Thank you, Bill and jolojonasgames. I accidentally mentioned RSN, I corrected my post.

    I have seen people mentioning the fact that such services can now be added to these routes. If they made time to add 2 services for the BR 101 in the timetable, I suppose they can make some time to add these too.

    It's a pity that MSB is not getting this layer despite being revisited by the preservation team recently.
     
  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the only way to do that is to toss out the entire timetable and build a new one from the ground up. Adam did that with RT, but that was because RT was the first German route made and contained no layers of any sort- and it took him three weeks out of his allotted month do do.
     
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  39. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    What is many? 10, 20 on a player base of thousands of people? In this case I would never have known something was wrong if I had not followed these forums carefully. So it is all very relative and I really do not care much about interiors of coaches. I also would not have cared a lot about the BR403 or the 406. The driving experience is fairly simple and for me it is waste to invest a lot of time on rather similar trains.

    For me the general atmosphere is important. If that is good, the details are not so important.I am not interested at all in more similar red German trains.
     
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  40. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I'm also not an expert and not going to chase DTG for every little detail, but in the HHL case and the Dostos it was pretty clear to me that something was not right. At first I didn't know if it was that the platform was too high, the track too low or that there were different door heights in Dostos but it was obvious to me that something wasn't right. Also do not assume that people that do not post here does not notice something is not right. Of course people that is not happy about something posts more, but not everyone. Many will just not buy it and wait for the next thing without posting anything.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  41. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - I think you are (broadly speaking) agreeing with me (?) - the 2021 pack of three routes, despite the general lack of new rolling stock (but with the "new" stuff that you have pointed out), is well worth the €30 price tag. It's a good deal (assuming that it gets fully tested and QA'd before the pack's release date is announced).

    But I do differ with you regarding the ACS-64 - this is not new to TSW. In fact, this loco was deemed to be humanly impossible to port into TSW 2 from TSW, along with the NEC Ex-Metroliner Cab Car, the NEC SW1000R, and the seemingly forgotten SPG CSX GP40-2. Maybe DTG could now do a bit of "good will developing", and make the minor changes required (for Scenario Editor, etc.) to these three bits of rolling stock that people have already paid for, and bring them all back into TSW 2 for people to play with, for free (for those that own them in TSW). Although, maybe we will see all three of these driving cabs magically re-appear as "new" DLC, that have been "rebuilt from the ground up", and made available for just $14.99 each.....?

    NB: I'd personally love to see the Ex-Metroliner Cab Car back (even on non-prototypical routes), as it is quite superbly moody with its super dark claustrophobic interior, and its fantastic rail running sounds. One of my faves, even on the incredibly short NEC run - I highly recommend it, if you have TSW (and you get the SW1000R marvel in the same double-loco pack....).

    NB2: I'd also love to see the BR 266 arrive as a general all-purpose German mainline diesel locomotive, in its almost Class 59 lookalike silver livery. It's not a Class 59, of course. Or a Class 66.... cos it would have PZB....!
     
  42. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the English idiom "from the ground up" that's been knocking around the train sim community for quite a while, and is fairly relevant to this discussion thread. So, just for absolute clarity.....:

    "From the ground up" means:

    - "From the very beginning"; and,
    - "Completely all of it, starting from nothing".


    "From the ground up" does not mean:

    - "Largely re-using what we've already made, and briefly tweaking a few numbers here and there"; or,
    - "Copying a set of files from one location and using it another location, with no changes at all"
     
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  43. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I know it's harder to create routes in brand new countries due to the many differences between regions. But in my opinion that variety is what elevates a good game to a truly great one. I was most excited when the TGV arrived, partly because I love high speed modern trains, but even more so because it was finally a new country. I wouldn't mind at all if they "milked" France a little bit more, creating more routes there. There's only so much red DB BR I can endure. :) So I accept that it's harder than sticking to the existing three regions. But TSW has been around for several years now, and so I really feel it's due time to expand the portfolio now. Both in terms of regions / environments and locomotives / trains as well. I think it is the key to really grow the game / platform as a whole for the future.
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I meant exactly what I said, and I know what the idiom means. I interpret what Adam said in the stream two weeks ago as binning the entire RT timetable and starting over with a blank sheet of (digital) paper. This is reinforced by the fact that the new timetable is based on the RL 2021 timetable, not that of 2016.
     
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  45. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the timetable is indeed from the ground up, and it took Adam 3 weeks to build. It is completely new, and thus from the ground up.
     
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be so sure about the ACS64 as being that from TSW2020 redivivus. I wouldn't be surprised if its foundation instead was the BR 182.

    At any rate, in my post I said that the 64 is "new" in the context of TSW2, which it is. Although it existed in TSW2020, that is a different game, especially by now; viewed from the customer perspective it is assuredly new, even if one believes or suspects that from the programming viewpoint it isn't.

    (I gave up on NEC even before I stopped playing 2020 altogether because the implementation of in-cab signaling was such a God-awful mess that the route was effectively unplayable with it turned on.)
     
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  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or they could compromise by doing the Frankfurt-Paris run, or part of it (say, Kaiserslautern-Strasbourg). An international border with supply-switching could be interesting, and they could re-use the ICE 3M and/or introduce the ICE 3-Neu (BR 407, Velaro D).
     
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  48. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I was expecting another french loco to be added, but I guess the fact it would have to be brand new has put it on the backburner a bit. Other varients of the TGV would be nice, especially a Sud-Est :D but perhaps they could build in some forward thinking to their choices like with the 313/314 that are mysteriously going to arrive at about the same time...
     
  49. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Member

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    Exactly. Take the rolling stock out of the route .pak files and put it in separate .pak files, one for each loco / trainset. To make it even more clever: if you can store the Passenger Information System data in a separate file inside the .pak of each route, you can simply have the loco load that file when starting a service or scenario, so that the correct station names become available. This would achieve many things: smaller download sizes when updates come out; keeping only one version of each train saving diskspace; easier to backport new features; etc.
     
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  50. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and it is the difference between having one big trainset and several separate dioramas.
     
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