Rivet Games Has Been Involved In The Cathcart Circle Line

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by erg73, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree with you.

    A picture says a million words:

    That picture again.jpg

    Especially the bit around Burlington triangle, where you have to negotiate the broken track and the invisible walls across the track. It's actually a good shunting puzzle, because it is so broken.

    Absolutely agree - the GP9RM is a gem - it has a stunningly beautiful livery, and a fabulous internal fit out. And drives brilliantly. Oakville also comes with a great collection of rolling stock, it's just a shame that you rarely see it, and when you do the LOD breaks down at super short range.

    I beg to differ, there are too many to list here, but you can easily find them if you explore the Forum. In a sense though, there are no mistakes at all on Oakville. But only if you regard it as a pre-alpha build that was accidentally rushed out for sale before the last two thirds were developed, and before anyone had the chance to test it, and remove things like the trial for weather with lightning.... etc... There are services where they literally replaced the coding for filling the ethanol tanks with "Wait 20 minutes". Perhaps the only "mistake" was to publish it before they had finished it. Maybe they should have postponed the release until it was ready...?

    It's purely a matter of style. It is designed to be a counterpoint to the communitying blurb that DTG uses. As soon as DTG starts using straightforward language, minus the hyperbole, then I will adapt my style to suit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
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  3. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah do you know what it says? It says "locked areas". These areas are wide distance scenery. They don't have to be modeled well. This person must have used a mod or something to go there. I don't understand your point.
     
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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    To be clear, I do not think there is any sort of "conspiracy". That's a bit overly dramatic... even for me..... ;-)

    To be even clearer - I am sure that the arrangements between the Scottish TSW team and the Chatham TSW team are 100% legal, and broadly speaking, not really part of some sort of "secret plot" to overthrow the Island of Sodor, and make sure that Mr Topham Hat is the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

    But I do wonder... with the production of both the Isle of Wight and Arosa Linie, as complete DLCs... built out in Unreal Engine... with track, scenery, train models and a heck of a lot of scripting.... just how much further the Scottish office needs to go in order to launch their own Train Simulator game, and market it and sell it themselves.... without involving the Chatham office at all.... you know, as an independent company might. And I think you will find that it is "not very far at all".

    They could easily knock up a decent UI and a HUD widget in UE..... so why don't they.... you know.... as a completely independent company.... why would they rely on the guys at Chatham to publish their stuff, and sell it for them, and (presumably) give them a huge cut.... when they could quite easily do it all themselves......? Maybe the Scottish team are just very very nice, and they want to ensure that the Chatham team get a very nice wodge of cash every so often, you know, as a thank you for the Chatham team also being very lovely, and doing all that "collecting the cash" from Sony, Valve and Microsoft thing, on their behalf, as welll as making the world a better place, etc., because you know, collecting cash is a very difficult thing to learn how to do, etc....?
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing. ALL TSW content is marketed via DTG. This isn't Train Sim.
     
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  6. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    No such thing as what?

    What is stopping any independent company that has the capability to build locos, fully build out routes and do all the scripting.... from launching a new UE based game called "Railway Driver"...., and then market it themselves...?

    There is no requirement in UK law that says that anyone making train related games using UE must only do it (market them) under the full control of DTG.
     
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  7. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine quite a bit further given that it takes way more effort and time, as well as completely different skills (that Rivet may not have) to build a train simulation game from the ground up than to make a route and locomotive in an existing one.

    TSW first launched in 2017 after a semi-open beta programme in late 2016 Pre-alpha footage came out in summer 2016 along with the TS2017 announcement, which is also roughly when the name changed from Train Simulator 2 to Train Sim World (this is why some of the internal files refer to the game as TS2Prototype). A "next gen train simulator" was publically talked about around the time TS2014 came out, so late 2013, and we know they were doing techdemos and design before then. So from paper (or more likely text documents and Excel spreadsheets) to first release, I think it's safe to say it took about 3 to 4 years. A route for TSW now takes DTG about 6 months from paper to release.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, but to market a game as DLC for TSW, and make it to work as part of TSW, they have to do so under the aegis of DTG. Trademark & copyright law is a thing, you know.

    I'm not sure where you get the quaint notion that independent contractors aren't separate entities, or that any company DTG may hire to do subcontracted work on a DTG DLC, or contract with to develop its own DLC, is somehow a sub-rosa "office" of Dovetail.

    By that logic, Obsidian is just an "office" of Bethesda.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  9. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't get that notion, quaint or otherwise. I am fairly sure that both the Scottish office that makes stuff for TSW for DTG, and the Chatham office that makes stuff for TSW for DTG are different entities.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    So... I was talking about the Scottish people maybe making their own train simulator game as a standalone product......... but anyway...... to pick up your point.... the "aegis" one.... are you saying that when DLCs like Isle of Wight and Arosa are put to market, that they are being put to market by DTG as part of DTG's TSW software.... that is to say that DTG are the people that sell TSW DLCs like Arosa...... and that TSW DLCs are effectively all "DTG DLCs"......?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  11. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Talking of Sir Topham Hat, he should be behind bars for sheer incompetence. The number of accidents on the Island of Sodor is simply shocking at best.
     
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  12. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes, no (in the same way that (going back to the supermarket analogy you used in another thread) I can buy Walker's Crisps in Tesco, they aren't Tesco's Crisps).

    There's a difference between a company independently developing a product for TSW and that same company assisting DTG in building one of their routes.
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    You are right, they would need to build a core, UI and HUD...... and the core would take a while.... but you'd only need a few months, maybe a year to knock it out, if they put the resource in, and if UE was the focus. And there might even be efficiencies that they'd gain from the loco/route building... if they had their own core game. And it surely isn't going to be too difficult to be more efficient than DTG..... ;-O

    But obviously, if they have formally agreed in a contract to "never compete"... even as an entirely independent company.... then they won't be able to. If that is the case, that is. I am not suggesting that it is, but it might be. Maybe. Sometimes the "never compete" clauses are written in very small fonts.
     
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  14. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Interesting....! So....(and, although I didn't ask you the question, I am glad for your interpretation of @solictr's comments...)..... are you now saying that the Scottish team would be completely free to take their independently made Arosa Linie product, and sell it as part of their own UE based "Train Driver" game...... should they build out a core in UE, with a new UI and a new HUD..... or do you think that they might be somehow tied to DTG on that one...? Because Walker's Crisps can sell their crisps wherever they like, right...?
     
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  15. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Do you think at some future point skyhook will also want to let us know that they helped dtg with one of there future releases well after it's released?I mean if RG did why wouldn't skyhook.What's possibilty Skyhook helping dtg with RUSH HOUR content?3 new routes are alot of work and to get them all ready in time for a summer release they might need help.
     
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  16. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK Skyhook was responsible for the scenery in HHL.
     
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  17. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    1. It doesn't matter who's responsible for what piece of the puzzle, as long as it's done right.
    It could be Rivet, Jane Doe, the incarnation of Leonardo da Vinci or AI. One thing is for sure: the decision is not ours.
    2. Cooperation is completely natural in EVERY business.
    3. Now I am absolutely sure that the Flat Earth acolytes are among us. I've suspected it for some time :D
     
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  18. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well with the way HHL has turned out,i wouldn't blame skyhook for not making a big deal about there part.
     
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  19. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The community pretty much agreed that the scenery was one of the best ever seen in any german route, so I'm not sure about that.
     
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  20. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Actually there is. It was introduced as part of the Armstrong Powerhouse Is A God Bill of 2002, first promised as part of Tony Blair's 1997 manifesto. In fact, it was suggested that Tony Blair's huge majority that year was because of this one promise in particular. However, the law eventually became controversial and the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition tried to remove the law in 2012, but failed due to rebel MPs on both sides of the house. One of which was Matt Peddlesden, UKIP MP for Knapford and Tidmouth North from 1992 until 2012, when he resigned due to allegations of preferring MSTS. His resignation was so controversial at the time that protests erupted in streets across the country - Andrew Neil wrote in The Spectator, "Quite frankly, Mr Peddlesden's resignation doesn't just show a change in the way we use train simulators, but how the country responds to regulations on freedom of rail simulation. Today may well be the most important moment in British politics since Margaret Thatcher made playing Microsoft Flight Simulator X a criminal offence in 1983."

    That article would be remembered for years, often being called the 'Legend Of The Great Western' due to that edition of the newspaper costing £14.99, despite only including articles on things that had previously been released in other editions of The Spectator. In an interview for This Morning in August 2020, a slightly vindicated Matt said "I don't regret saving the Dovetail Games law. It was my biggest achievement in my 20 years as an MP, unless you count banning saxophones on the Waterloo And City Line."

    I apologise for the load of rubbish above... :D
     
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  21. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    LOL!
     
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  22. Sheldon1000

    Sheldon1000 Well-Known Member

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    I think Matt just trolled this thread. Haha
     
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  23. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well unfortunately i'm reasonably sure not very many would spend 30.00 for just beautiful scenery alone.It's a train sim world game not scenery sim world.There is a slight difference.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Back in the 1980s General Motors sold Suzuki cars in the US under the nameplate "Geo." Did that make Suzuki a GM subsidiary?
     
  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Counter question: Why would Rivet want to make their own game? With TSW, they‘ve already got a huge audience more than willing to spend money. If Rivet were to make their own game, they‘d need to invest a huge amount of money to build the core besides the route etc., go through all the trouble of talks with Sony/Microsoft (if they don‘t, they won‘t be able to compete with TSW), and then actually convince enough people to buy their game to make that entire endeavor worthwhile. Pretty huge risk when you could also develop for an already established game that‘s doing well as a second and third party.

    Could you tell me why you insist on calling Rivet the Scottish office and DTG the Chatham office? Is there any reason not to call them by their names? You said yourself that Rivet and DTG are separate entities, surely you aren‘t trying to claim that they‘re secretly one studio?
     
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  26. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I think this guy is just trolling. Talking of "scottish offices" and talking about some weird conspiracy theories. We should all just stop responding to this thread. I think Matt won this thread with his post. There is nothing more to say.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
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  27. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    2.00am...? Crikey - I really do admire your commitment to the cause (quite seriously).

    Anyway - is there any news on whether Cathcart Circle will get a patch in the next few days/weeks.......?
     
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  28. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Because they clearly have the talent to be able to do so, and as a completely independent company they would be fully in control of their destiny and fully and clearly responsible for their product, and be able to fully reap the rewards that they deserve from their very hard work. It would be good to see some competition in the console market (there is plenty of competition in the PC market, and both of DTG's products are the best of the lot)..

    This is a fair question. I am not trying to claim that there is any secretly anything - everything appears to be quite open and public to me. To answer your question, the Scottish office that makes TSW stuff for DTG is based in Scotland, and the Chatham office that makes TSW stuff for DTG is based in Chatham. All of the TSW stuff made by both offices for TSW is made for DTG. DTG then sells all of the TSW stuff to customers.

    "Rivet" doesn't sell anything related to TSW to customers. All of the TSW DLCS are DTG DLCs.

    Consequently, whenever anyone has an issue with a DLC made by the Scottish team, they have a problem with DTG's product. And it is for DTG to make the arrangements, as necessary, to rectify any such issues. Any "bugs and issues" with DLCs that happen to have been partly developed in Scotland are "bugs and issues" that should be on DTG's "bugs and issues list" for DTG to ensure that they get fixed.

    The involvement of "Rivet" is something that I don't need to know about or care about (to bring this back completely on topic). It should be almost completely invisible to me, as an end-user. This includes so-called "Rivet DLCs" such as Arosa Linie and Isle of Wight, or any other TSW DLC, whether it is Cathcart Circle or ECW, SHS, or any other TSW DLC.

    All of the DLCs are completely DTG DLCs.

    The ultimate point here is that whenever anyone has a problem with a DLC published and sold by DTG (that is any of the TSW DLCs), then it is entirely inappropriate for anyone from the Chatham office to say something like:

    "That is a Rivet DLC, and therefore it is nothing to do with us." Because that simply isn't true. That's the point. Nobody should accept this sort of deflection, however tempting it is to believe it.

    DTG is entirely responsible (to the customer) for all of the products published and sold by DTG. That includes every single DLC made for TSW.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Technically they have been payed . You see arosa line is $30 and iow is $24.99. People have spent money on those routes so they have money to fix outstanding issues that some have complained about. Also bug fixes equals new sales which equals money. If a person has not purchased something because of bugs, if those bugs are fixed it could lead some to buy the product.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yep, people paid for the product that was released at the time they bought it. I agree.

    While fixing bugs etc may generate new income on a dribble scale, it doesn't generate the same amount as working on new projects. I guess there is the thing of people NOT buying new stuff if they think the old stuff is rubbish, but they still generate more from new than old
     
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  31. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    It's not about them improving the product they launched, or fixing minor problems. It's about serious problems that make Arosa currently unplayable. What's the point of having a timetable that is impossible to keep to, always arriving at least 20 minutes late? And in Switzerland? It is simply shameful that they launched it like this, but it is even more shameful that this is not fixed three months later.
    I think it's bad that some companies have these policies because it puts us, the customers, in a clear defencelessness against defective products, but also that some users defend them, I think it's regrettable.
     
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  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Couldn’t agree more.
     
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  33. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Skyhook's website shows they've done a lot of stuff for TSW since the beginning and list DTG as one of their customers. They've done a lot of stuff on the trains side, modelling, texturing and animations. Matt also just mentioned on his own stream that they did some wagons for the original CSX Heavy Haul.
    https://skyhookgames.com/case-study/dovetail-games/
     
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  34. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    I think this may have something to do with rivets bad reputation . If they’d have told us before we saw the route that they were party responsible for it , then it may have caused a lot of negativity . However , by telling us afterwards , we are pleasantly surprised , giving some hope towards rivet’s future in TSW2
     
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  35. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    There was a lot of negativity anyway regarding Cathcart before the stream, basically it was going to be 50m long with no scenery and was a project to get someone new to the company started. Not surprised Rivet didn't want to announce their involvement.

    Obviously after the first stream this place was awash with praise, and someone calling for it to be delayed because they seemingly underestimated how efficiently the team can work.
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Haven't seen people defending their handling of the situation, but it's a very different thing to say that they SHOULD be fixing bugs forthwith and slating them (and anyone associated with them) when they MUST fix these things (or the world will somehow come to an end)

    In the end, the consumer chooses whether or not to buy something and I know the laws are written so that even the most dimwitted buffoon (thinking Boris Johnson's father or similar) is protected and should be informed of everything ahead of time, but there are more than enough streams, information, reviews and everything else on this matter to say "if you buy this, it will NOT make you feel like you're in somewhere you should yodel..."
     
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  37. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    An interesting take on events. I have a different perspective. My impression is that any new route would have been treated with some suspicion because DTG had just committed a series of critical failures, including failure to protect the launch of Rush Hour, releasing a German route without testing the signalling (which was very broken) and releasing the RT upgrade with a completely broken timetable (albeit an extensive freebie), which was a bit of a confidence crushing series of events....

    Personally, I very much looked forward to Cathcart Circle, as I recognise the value of a network route (even though they should probably have made an outer loop as well, and added another train). For me the issues started with the first preview stream, which demonstrated many issues that were still broken, including signalling/dispatch, audio and obvious problems with the passengers. We were told that these might not get fixed for release, because making such a promise could lead to DTG being accused of "making wildly unfounded promises". Wildly unfounded. Not exactly a confidence booster. Hence the call to postpone release of the DLC.

    Those issues still exist. There are still "Go Via" instructions that turn reds to green. The passengers are more broken than previously imagined. And the audio master level is still way too low compared to the UI sounds, and the mix is well out of whack with an extremely dominant windscreen wiper (the sounds themselves are fantastic - just poorly implemented). On top of that, it is now recognised by DTG that the Class 314 needs to give out more light from the headlight, and this is especially important because the stations are extremely poorly lit, making every night run a totally dismal experience - add the rain and turn on the wiper.... and it's a total disaster. Oh, and the route has 500ms and 1000ms studdering freezes, it is the most jerky route that I have seen for a long time - it's actually worse than WCML when that was released for TS2012.

    Cathcart Circle has got amazing potential, if all of the above issues are fixed. However, until they are fixed, Cathcart Circle is a DLC to be avoided, and if the Scottish team want to be associated with that failure, then that is up to them. When Cathcart Circle is fixed it will become a "must buy" - so, all we need to do now, is wait for a first patch for the DLC.
     
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  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Your cardinality scares me. Have you seen the ratings on Steam? Maybe you have a very sophisticated taste just like that.

    PS Each time you forget to write: in my opinion. You're too generalizing.
    Do not involve mythical "everyone" with your strange theories. I insist.
     
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  39. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    IMO it’s the best TSW route to date , maybe the BML will change that though !
     
  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Cathcart Circle is a really good route, potentially. It just needs to be finished. All it needs is one patch to address the major audio and lighting issues, passenger behaviour and (minor) dispatch issues.

    Then it will become one of the best products that DTG has ever made (IMHO). It's potentially that good.

    But for now, it certainly is one to be avoided, if it looks like a patch will be delayed for several months, because an engine upgrade is getting in the way (as some people are saying). So, I suggest that people pick up the DLC later in the year, when it is hopefully patched. If it gets patched sooner, which is what I would expect (and hope for), then I'd suggest picking it up sooner. But for now, I'd suggest people hold off on any purchase.

    I would love to be one of the strongest advocates for Cathcart Circle, but obviously it would be entirely wrong for me to recommend the route, given the issues that it has - it's impossible to play the route in the rain, or in the dark, for example - they are fairly big issues (IMHO).
     
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  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Natalka, is that you? Do the bosses know that you are criticizing your own products?
    Besides, having several accounts is against the rules...

    You are "evil", young lady /o\ This modernity... BR o7

    EDIT
    In my opinion, of course :)
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I tend to add this in front of everything I read on these forums (and others)
    Saves a lot of expletive laden rants needing to be edited before I click "Post Reply"
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Passenger behavior is a core issue. Until that is overhauled (supposedly as part of RH), passenger AI on every route is going to alternate between lunatic and superhero.

    And I wouldn't call the audio issue "major" in the least. Some assert it's too quiet, but I find the level just about where I like it. A "major" audio issue would be the TRAXX locos' ear-shredding screech, a sound so awful that I like many avoid driving them.
     
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  44. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    And Matt himself commenting on an official stream that the sound mixing is "Terrible".
     
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  45. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    I think it's interesting that DTG was upfront in the preview stream that they worked with Armstrong Powerhouse on the sound, but didn't reveal that Rivet was helping with the scenery.

    I don't think IOW and Arosalinie are particularly good, or well-detailed, routes. But I never had an issue with the modelling of the stations or trains, I thought those were both fantastic. And if contracting the buildings and stations model-building work to Rivet freed up time for Dovetail's team to work more on other scenery objects (such as custom catenary poles, and placement of assets), then I think the partnership resulted in a really special route.

    Yes there are some small things that aren't perfect. Audio could still be improved a little, nighttime station lighting looks like something out of Christopher Nolan's Batman films, and the route would definitely benefit from more AI traffic in the future, but it's probably my favourite U.K. route to be developed so far, and one of my favourite routes in TSW.
     
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  46. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I think it's because of the reputation of the 2nd party. AP are generally seen as the best of the best, especially in the sound department. Rivet isn't.
    If they say a train has AP sounds, then the community are more likely going to be much more accepting of them.
    If they said Rivet helped them with the scenery, it A) would've completely switched some people off, and B) would've resulted in people being very skeptical of the scenery, particularly the distant scenery.
     
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  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Hardly surprising. Preview and roadmap streams are, after all, marketing tools. DTG don't do them just because they feel like being sociable. Staff do read these forums, they do know that Rivet are the Emmanuel Goldstein of playerdom right now, and they are equally aware that many in here worship Armstrong Powerhouse like their staff were Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
     
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  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Probably because loads of people ask about sounds, are interested in sounds and say that sounds are the biggest part of immersion. People don't say that about a two platform station in the middle of nowhere...
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Because the community turn into a drooling mass of teenage girls gathering outside a hotel waiting for a glimpse of Harry Styles with the mere mention of AP and turn into a seething mass of angry Yorkshire folk outside a courtroom waiting to shout abuse at Peter Sutcliffe when Rivet are mentioned.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I remember Harry Seacombe, he had a good voice!

    It seems strange how some companies seem to attract the wrath of people. There are a lot of anti-AP people out there on other forums, some don't like their business model, they do transform a lot of TS1 products in my opinion. Rivit on the other hand is well thought of in TS1 circles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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