So currently (29/01/2023), the player seems having 2 view on how 385's power and brake (mainly brake) performance was. A: Rivet seriously ruin the brake which was insanely weak (also some claim it was rocket on launch while others claim it was underpower) B: Rivet's brake might get issue on lower percentage curve but was fine at 100% and EB as calculation shows. As so I made some NOT-Scientific test which everybody can try do the test themselves. -------------------- [Method] 1: [Stop-Start Test] Currently mod are available on Train Sim Community that replace 314 on GCC as 385 which provide us a route that require frequent stop/start and quite hard to get on time unless doing full power/full brake. Thus, I drove 385 like how I drove 314---Full power from start, last sec full brake. 2: [Lickey Incline] The Lickey Incline was current the most challenging part for all UK AC trains in game. First, I drove the 323/385/387(AC mode) UP the incline from Bromsgrove P1 and see how many times they spend to complete the climb and how fast they reached at the end. Second, I drove them DOWN the incline starting at Longbridge so they all reached 100mph at the moment going down. All trains braked at B1 (33% for 385) and see if they can stop in time at Bromsgrove P4 or not with just B1(33%) brake force. ----------------- [Result] 1: It was a long time since I drive 314 or GCC, one of the hardest station was the Shawlands with 1.2% downslope approach at 40mph. I did NOT drive 314 to compare for this test, but I DID drove 385 approaching at 40mph until around 200-220yard then slam into 100% brake. RESULT: Stop SHORT 20yard at full speed in DRY condition (Welcome anyone who want to try it at wet condition but I guess it will get wheelocked which is debatable for modern EMU)(Also welcome compare test with 314). 2.1: The climb test with 323 (3car), 385 and 387 (both 4car) as following: 323: 2min49sec 64mph 385: 2min19sec 79mph 387: 2min45sec 65mph 2.2: The downhill test as following: 323: Overshoot at 177 yard 385: Stop short at 350 yard 387: SPAD at 60mph ------------------------- [Theory] Test 1 supported the B side that the 100% brake was correct and realistic as the data IRL suggested. Test 2's climb part seems reasonable as 385 seems*From what I heard* suppose to give more power output than 387 which carried DC equipment and should be heavier. Test 2's brake part reflected 3 thing: 1: 385's brake is in 9(10?) step at the TMS screen and player should ignore the inaccurate HUD and use the TMS instead. 2: When having the same amount of brake (33%=B1), 385 clearly performs better than 323 which has 1 carriage less. 3: 387's brake at B1 was the one that really focked up here, SPAD at 60mph while other two stopped in time. ----------------------- [Conclusion] Edited: Screenshot now available, see the reply below's attachment (Assuming my test was done correctly and anyone can do and have the same result themselves) 1: Rivet was right and A side was wrong on the brake performance. 2: Rivet took the blame that does not deserve as 385 clearly performs fine in these not-scientific test. 3: What the hell is going on with 387's B1? (Again, not very scientific so you guys have to spend some 30min to do the testing) -------------------- Link to the mod mentioned: 385 on GCC
Just so I don't gave the wrong conclusion I'm doing all the test again and try to take some screenshot in case I was the one who ruined my test result and caused more chaos.
1: 387 ready to leave Longbridge at 0mph 2: Prove of 387 being in AC mode, see panto 3: 387 hit 100mph 4: 387 ready to go down 5: Not good
(Picture might be in wrong way to display) 1: 0mph ready to go 2: Passed the same spot but at 94mph 3: Ready to go 4: Reduced speed to same as 387 but much further 5: Stopped in time
My complaints about the 385 is only the sound, i dont mind if the master key is higher than real, also i dont mind t keys for the guards panel. For me the nice feature is there and working. Rivet is ahead of dtg when it comes to little features and the visuals in general. But not going the extramile for the sound record, was a major mistake. Steam ratings are neither positive nor negativ. Sometimes i think rivet invests a huge effort to end up just medicore. But i agree the physics should undergo true studies / observations during development, that the product matches this close to real.
1: Depart 2: Extra pic to show it was 4 car 3: Reached 100mph a bit earlier than other two 4: Going down hill B33% 5: Which reflect as B3 on TMS 6: Seriously stop short here with 581 yard
What was really confusing is, judging by the 323 vs 385 vs 387, the performance of 385 is the BEST out of all instead of the WORSE which many suggested on the forum.
What really doesn't help is the live stream video and the... less than perfect driving by the stream team... no offence to them, but they don't always help with these matters. Matt will leave it to the last moment to brake, giving the impression that it is infact worse than it actually is. Alot of people complained about the accelleration of the 150/2, which, again on the reveal stream was going from notch 0 - 7. It has required me to change my driving style (which, was pretty agressive ngl). but the timetable gives you ample time to make up for it, and it's actually one of my favourite routes.
If you like aggressive driving you will love how 385 deal with GCC, literally has 0 vision in cab but you can stop with ease (not good for pax behind but who cares them when in 314 anyway).
Not very scientific but the brake retardation on the 385 feels about right to me. At slow speeds though it feels as though the brakes are poor but I get the feeling that this is a visual issue probably as a result of the small windscreen. I always find at slow speed that I am actually travelling faster than the view through the windscreen suggests.
I don't know what you've done with your 323 tests, but I've not been able to replicate your findings. I've tried sending the 323 down the Lickey, starting at 100mph at the top of the ramp and going downhill in brake step 1 throughout. In all cases I've tested (single 323, and a pair) I ended up SPADding the signals after Bromsgrove station. I do have enhancement mods installed but I do not think they affect physics.
And strangely, as you saw me on Discord asking someone else to witness, it was still doing the same result on my end...Even consider wind might blowing on my face in all my test it still shouldnt cause such difference.
See above my findings from a different thread on the braking - the brake force looks correct to the original specification but the brake handle behaves in a bizarre way that makes it subjectively harder to hit the marks than it is with other locos, especially when relying on the HUD 'step number'. I've also noticed that the air pressure in the brake cylinder bounces around in a weird way even when the brake lever is left in a static position (almost as if the unit is using rheostatic braking and then attempting to hit a given deceleration value by adding mechanical braking on top of this - I'm a bit outside my knowledgable zone though here as this goes quite deep into how the loco applies brakes at any given point of lever travel).
Yep - for me, Rivet are too focused on the wrong thing. Yes it’s nice to have working lifts, nice explorable routes & stations etc & moths around lights in the dark - that is however after everything else is as good as current content, the state of the DLC route & 385 from what I’ve seen, does not warrant the above extras. Just look at what London Midland has done with his mod in a few hours - if I could have all of LM’s work, or working lifts, the decision is easy every time. Yes, I’m aware that officially we can’t have WHSmith’s & Network rail branding, but it’s the stuff like PIS, headlight clusters, signalling etc. Time & time again we hear about how there’s no time to add stuff to trains, or make something look or sound better, but time and time again we see energy expended on elaborate collectibles & gimmicks. I was so excited about this route, then I have come to realise that it’s a straight downgrade from the CrossCity Line - Rivet have produced the usual mediocrity with this DLC and it’s a shame because they had everything going for them with this one.
Watched KCRC do another test, 385 oddly stopped early again by around 580 yards (which is odd since it’s apparently under powered). Class 323 stopped on the platform and the 387 spadded at about 58mph Quite an interesting experiment
I guess from what I heard that part was the problem of 385---it does slow down and kind of similar to other train, but the brake force keeps going up and down (in limited range, still not ideal at all). On the other hand, perhaps (big perhaps here) the one doing the train was not the one dealing with assest, and the one dealing assest is not the one dealing with sound so as always Rivet's model was great, scenario somewhat fine (after ISL), sound and physic always act weird. It was just the one dealing with that area get stuff messed up while others didnt, will be helpful if DTG can spend some time to help them when needed, ideally before the issues appears infront of player.
Two issues which may have already been mentioned, audio in the drivers cab, sounds like you are in a wind tunnel and throttle l/braking seems very stiff and braking feels non existent
The whole thing was mind blowing as it really doesn't match what it should be based on other's test but it just works like that on my end and, I assume, no mod can affect simugraph so no reason why it works for me but not for others even consider all mod.
Well mate, perhaps look at what I send which proved (not prove, more like suggested that in this particular situation) the brake was not only there and was extremely powerful compare to 323 (which stopped 500+ yard from 385's position) and 387 (SPAD 57mph).
It’s certainly a given that the person sorting out stations, isn’t the one dealing with train setup (although with some of Rivets issues, who knows), there are issues such as station lighting & scenery discrepancies.
And the platform 'outside' Waverley are really just there but without anything to cover it. Well that one was kind of fine as nobody will never see it in normal situation unless they happens to wander there. Do wish they can try get things good later. Will it happen? I don't know, but they did patch train (not in good way) before and perhaps will want to deal with the route this time.
This is the key point here. I've never missed more marks, or been as unsure of my braking, as with the 385 after 15+ services. The time taken for the brakes to "bite" combined with needing to move all the way to 80-100% for effective braking means even slowing from 20mph-stop can be hair-raising when coming into a terminus.
Which is not the main point of this post. For me, stopping at 20mph should be doable at 50-70% brake---this equals to around B2 as other trains.
I had a feeling that Rivet didn't mess up the physics - in the preview stream, the braking curve of max brake whenever Matt overshot seemed to match the Electrostars to me. Can I point out though, this was a really scientific test. You had a null and alternative hypothesis, a clearly laid out method, with results, evidence of your testing in the form of images, a well laid-out report, a conclusion that rejected one of the hypotheses, AND you invited peer-reviewing (the most important thing in any scientific experiment). You should be proud KCRCRailway! EDIT: You even factored in experimental error in your report!
The biggest 'non-scientific' part is how Alex pointed he failed to get the same result as what I got (that all his train spad at the end), and this test did not in any sense help us to tell if Rivet messed the physic (in sense of not doing it 100% correctly) which, consider the fact that BC keep bouncing around, does raised some issue. It does rejected the suggestion that there was 'no' brake which was better than nothing I suppose :P In short, Rivet's 385 (according to other's test) does have the same speed reduction rate but it achieved in a weird way that doesn't seems behave as intended. But it was surely not 'no brake' as some claimed, this thing does brake and does slow down but might acted in a unsatisfying way (not like I feel that much as player, I happily take it for now and hope they do something in future)
To be fair, its not easy to talk or read chat (whilst streaming) and to concentrate to drive at the same time. Many a time I have spadded, knebworthed, Natalie'd , wiped out a station (RIP ESSEN 2019) where I have been concentrating on the chat during a livestream. Bradley your scientific thoughts on the braking of the 385? Hentis
Oh agreed, which is why they should really amend the format of those streams so that someone else is doing the driving, leaving JD and Matt to discuss the release and talk through points.
No no! The fact that other people did not achieve the same results is exactly what makes it scientific! It would be useful if we could find out why, but that is the idea. This is indeed a scientific method, but it may not be the best method if someone else can find a better method. Because we can't conduct these tests on real life 385s, you used the next best thing - similar units in game. You kept many control variables such as weather and section of track, and the method of braking/accelerating, but you only changed the train you used (independent variable). You then measured the performance of the trains (dependant variable) and arrived at a conclusion. The conclusion doesn't have to be correct (once, some scientist thought they found a particle that could travel faster than the speed of light, but it was only after the experiment was peer-reviewed was it discovered that the timer they used had a fault - the entire thing was still scientific!) The fact that other people are trying to recreate your results is all part of the process of peer-reviewing (which is a key part of a scientific method).
I managed to grab people to watch me doing it myself, guess this test will get more useful if we have some other player try this themselves and post their result here :P I personally feels it was kind of weird that 323/385 actually stopped after that slope at all. Wonder what actually caused this difference...
Well that’s simple, using the mathematical formula for finding the rate of deceleration and the class 385 specification and can find on line the brakes are 100% accurate link to video with my findings:
Seems the link didn't work? At least on my side it was a huge blank between [accurate] and [link] so I assume there should be a video between which I can't see it somehow. Edit: I can actually see the video when I quote your reply but I can't see it at the original reply there.
