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Roadmap Update - 18th May 2021

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, May 18, 2021.

  1. qdoggyy

    qdoggyy New Member

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    I believe 2 roadmap streams before that Adam said he tried to make a new timetable for LIRR but the "dispatcher" in game wont let the service go thru. He said he will re-attempt after the core optimization is upgraded
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What I also don't understand is how they could miss the PZB issue from the beginning. HHL is the 8th German Route made for tsw. They have made many German routes in ts2021 as well so the fact that they "didn't have the experts who are experinced with pzb hence why the problem was missed" seems like a cheap excuse because since HHL is the 8th German route in tsw (all with pzb btw), they should have all the knowledge on how PZB works.
     
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  3. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, DTG make a video game, not a safety critical signaling system. I would expect Thales or Siemens to understand all the intricacies of PZB, as they work on the systems in real life to stop trains crashing into each other and people dying. DTG make a recreation of PZB for a bunch of people who like to drive trains in a video game, there's a little bit less of an obligation on their staff to possess an encyclopedic knowledge of PZB.
     
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  4. DeStijl

    DeStijl Well-Known Member

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    I think the point is that there is no reason for HBL to have a worse PZB system than previous routes. DTG has already made routes in the past with better (perhaps not perfect) implementations of PZB, so why is it going backwards?
     
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  5. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    did this really just come out of your digital mouth? Lmao, it doesn't take an expert to know what PZB should be doing, it takes a company that is specialized in making train routes and their safety systems to understand it.
     
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  6. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's lucky..... because nobody is asking DTG, or their game-testers, to check that a real-life safety critical system has been implemented correctly in the real world. They are just being asked to test a game.

    And thank Google Almighty for that.
     
  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This was exactly my point but of course what I say gets misinterpreted
     
  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You misinterpreted what I was trying to say but at least DeStijl explained what I was trying to say
     
  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    PZB & LZB fixes are on the way
    PZB & LZB fixes are on the way | source
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  10. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    It is not a “video game” it’s a simulator
     
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  11. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    The game has a lot of focus on console players.
    It can not be classified as a simulator, it contains some elements of the simulation. It's not necessarily a bad approach, it targets both laid-back casual players as well as players with more knowledge and experience with trains.

    If it was a simulator, Raildriver would have been a focus from the start along with the locomotives being more interactive for example.

    A proper simulator is Microsoft's Flight Simulator if you want an example, but we know already that DTG is not Microsoft. ;)
     
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  12. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I still haven't tried it yet but a class mate of mine told me that after flying the Aerosoft A320 the MSFS2020 A320 is not as complete and realistic.

    Flights sims only get really realistic when you buy the proper add-ons, with the exception of the Zibo 737 for X-plane they generally all cost more than a TSW route DLC and much much more than a loco DLC.

    Building a game that can only be enjoyed by people that have an almost professional training is not a good idea, and usually to get "sims" to a high level of realism you will have to get very expensive, niche, add-ons, such as the Aerosoft A320, or go even a step further into PMDG
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  13. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    Please elaborate what this has to do with it being a simulator or not.

    Among flight sim enthusiasts MS FS is widely considered a game for the masses who want an immersive yet accessible flight experience. Not really much different to TSW in this regard.
     
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  14. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    TSW is certainly a "game", and not a true "simulator".

    A simulator is a purpose built rig which is used to train real world simulatees to use a real world piece of physical engineering, like a train, aircraft, moon lander, or racing car..... in a real world environment.... like a railway, in the atmosphere, in gravity locked moon orbit, or on a racetrack...... so that when they do it for real for the first time the chances of causing £millions or £billions of real damage are reduced.

    The guys that are making the SimRail game, for example, have a real world business making real train simulators for the likes of Bombardier, and for train operators like Deutsche Bahn. I have no idea whether their SimRail product will actually be appealing as a "game" to a wider leisure market... but they are very highly likely to be able to get PZB properly simulated, in their game, every time. I guess. I expect.....

    What I look for in TSW and TS2012 is immersive entertainment, an opportunity to learn more about trains and their operation, and the opportunity to take some nice screenshots of trains. TSW does go further than this.... it provides a good "simulation" of railway services... and with PZB working, and with good physics (power/braking curves, etc.) programmed in (like the DB BR 101 on HRR)..... TSW can become (and is becoming) a bit more like a simulator.

    But it isn't quite there yet. Hmmm.... or maybe I have just convinced myself that it is..... ;-)
     
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  15. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Trying to classify TSW is my favorite part of the show. I'm going for a cup of coffee. Gentlemen, don't go that way, haha :)
     
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  16. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Simulators are commonly used in training people to handle complex situations.
    TSW has some elements of this simulation but is far from a proper simulator. As I said, it is not necessarily a bad thing, their audience is wider with this approach.

    synthetic.angel described very well why the game is not a simulator.

    In regards to consoles, I personally have not seen any form of proper simulation of any kind done on consoles. You need input devices that are not supported but most of all you need processing power to handle complex elements of the simulation. On a controller, it is impossible to properly simulate as there aren't enough buttons to assign to simulate the interaction with the machine (train, plane etc.).
     
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  17. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, it's too early in the day to have to coddle the egos of those who can't accept they are playing a video game.

    How can we possibly settle this argument? It's just not possible. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in the world to suggest what this product made by Dovetail Games could possibly be.
     
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  18. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Besides, we live in a flat earth simulation - that should satisfy every hunger \o/
     
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  19. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I mean Gran Turismo is branded as "The Real Driving Simulator" though alot of people don't claim its physics as a true racing simulator vs titles such as Assetto Corsa, Rfactor 2 and iRacing, with most people labeling GT as a "Simcade" experience. I feel like TSW2 fits into this category if it existed for Train Simulators. Not a full on game, but not a full on simulator either...
     
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  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think TSW and TS2020 really are what you want them to be. They don't simulate everything exactly I am sure. I have Car Mechanic simulator but that to me feels much much more like a game than a simulator, it is obviously not a simulator as I can't adjust the tappets on a Renault 5!

    I wouldn't describe TSW and TS2020 as a game as they do feel like they are simulating as much as possible the experience of driving a train in as closely recreated an environment as they can (or at least are attempting to do).

    As said above it is somewhere in between really which is probably the best place for it.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  21. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    No piece of software the public can buy is a Simulator: "a machine designed to provide a realistic imitation of the controls and operation of a vehicle, aircraft, or other complex system, used for training purposes."

    Some programs get closer, like ZuSi being an adaptation of software actually used to train real drivers, other get further like TrainZ and Derail Valley, but nothing is a Simulator in the actual meaning of the word.

    The term "simulator" is here used in a different way, just to differentiate games such as ZuSi from games such as Derail Valley, at this point, when does a game stop being a game and becomes a Simulator? That is subjective, and everyone has a different opinion on the matter, TrainZ full title is Trainz Railroad Simulator, but how many people consider Trainz a Simulator?

    This whole argument it simply completely redundant and doesn't have much sense, until someone establish a concrete criteria a "Simulator" must meet that are widely accepted.
     
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  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Simulation is a game genre. These two meanings coexist in this aspect.
     
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  23. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed something yesterday while driving one of the Hauptstrecke Hamburg-Leubeck sessions during which it seemed that the driving direction/slope indicator seemed to be reading incorrectly, since the train seemed to be loosing velocity when moving down-slope. Then I switched to the #2 view, which showed me the tail end of the train rather than the head end. Pressing 2 again took me to the front of the train. What this told me is that the rear cab of the engine was pointed forward and the direction/slope indicator was correct after all. Obviously, reading this indicator correctly takes some thought
    I wish now that I had taken a couple of screen shots!
     
  24. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Whenever in doubt about the meaning of a word, I go to the dictionary. This eliminates the subjective and interpretation factor.
    There is excessive use of words in contexts in which they do not belong. This is a common practice in advertising and marketing, as an example. This practice can build a certain image and give a slight edge over the competition.

    If you have 3 minutes, this video showcases perfectly how we have permanently changed vocabulary and word meanings in our chase for sensational with each step - https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09hg3dd/why-extroverts-have-their-own-extreme-language
     
  25. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    You’re the rudest person I have seen on the forums yet

    Where have you got that stupid idea from? I’m completely ok with this being a game
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  26. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, sorry if I didn't make that clear, no consumer software used for leisure and personal enjoyment is a true Simulator.

    There is another definition in the Cambridge Dictionary that is a bit more inclusive and is the more appropriate for this context, (and this is the part that was discussed in that BBC video):

    "a piece of equipment that is designed to represent real conditions, for example in an aircraft or spacecraft:"

    And if we go by this definition than TSW is a sim, Trainz is a sim, a lot of games that most people here would consider arcade games would become simulators, so again, a lot of people have a subjective line where they draw and if a game, in in their opinion crosses the like than it's not called a Simulator.

    I call Desha De Go a Simulator because it comes with it's own hardware that simulates the control of the real train and that is more important for realism than anything else.

    How can ZuSi be a Simulator if the graphics are so awful? It does not look anything like the real world.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The debate between it being a game or a simulator is one where the only satisfactory answer is determined by whatever the player or user wants it to be. In reality it is both at the same time. It is produced, marketed and distributed as a game on multiple gaming platforms and it has the simulation of real trains in real locations at the core of the experience, while implementing aspects of gaming such as scoring, progress, and rewards for completion. It’s both but, if I was under oath in a court of law, I would have to say it is a game. I refer to it in conversation with other real people as ‘my train game’ but use it mainly for its simulation qualities. I play no other games.
     
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  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If Sim City is a simulator then TSW is a simulator. Doesn't have to be as realistic as possible to simulate something
    Obviously we may LIKE it to be...
     
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  29. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    The game certainly has its elements of simulation, no doubt about it but it doesn't make it to a simulator because if I put pedals, a steering wheel, and doors to my bed it won't make it a car either.

    A simulator has all the elements from real-life taken into account. From the vehicles included to proper weather simulation to gravity and earth's curvature plus many more other elements. One that has all these can be called a simulator.

    There is a reason why proper simulators are not made available to the public and that is terrorism. If you remember, the ultra-realistic Flight Simulator has been used in many instances by terrorists to train on how to hijack an airplane, including for 9/11. There is public info on such inquiries and investigations made by various countries throughout the years.

    It's better for our day-to-day lives that simulators are not made available to the masses and a limit needs to be set for national security and not only.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    "You open your eggs at the big end? This means WAR!!!"
     
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  31. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I too only buy UK routes but rather DTG get the game fixed so that when DLC is released it has less bugs and if that DLC needs to have fixes there would be less chance of messing something else up at the same time no?

    I agree although there are plenty of 'Real' simulators the public can get access too. Helicopter, even train simulators (I saw a video on that).

    For me the game certainly has elements of a simulator but isn't close enough. It has to mirror real life to be a sim but TSW2 still is a good game.

    I don't know if it's just me but from DTG Roadmap streams I get frustrated when they keep saying 'we have fixed the issue but we can't release it yet'. I don't expect fixes to all come at once but some of these fixes have go on for ages. I think they said in a past stream they had fixes they forgotten about.

    IMO for DTG to move forward they have to get on top of these fixes and take them more seriously.
     
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  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that this is exactly the right answer, for the purpose of this current conversation (and a welcome cooling distraction from the actual topic of the thread...). I actually will use the term "simulator" quite loosely at times (for MS FS 2020, for TSW, and for a handful of racing games including GT Sport..... LOL).

    -----------------

    Modern games, especially racing games... can be so incredibly detailed in terms of user experience, feedback from controllers, and the ability to "set-up" the simulated parameters and observe the effect of these set-up changes on simulated performance....... that these games are really simulators. They are not state of the art simulators, but they are better than real world simulators of not that long ago.

    You can build a basic sim racing rig for £1000 that is better than a real car racing team simulator from say - the 1990s (including the cost of the PC, steering wheel and software). And you can build something for £5000 that is good enough for track familiarisation for real race drivers right now - in fact, many drivers do exactly this. And for £10,000 you can build a six-axis rig with full motion simulation (for immersion, for leisure purposes). But, if you want a real state of the art race car simulator right now, then it will be specific not only to a specific car, but a specific build of car with specific components modelled using hard-won and very expensive data from the wind tunnel. These installations tend to cost about £2 million, but the considerable data costs have to be added to that.

    TSW 2, right now, does have elements of simulator in it. Just try and run the DB BR 155 under different braking set-ups, with different loads, on different routes. The changes you make will make a significant difference to the outcome of a simulated run... Check out some of the posts by cwf.green who investigated the power curve of the DB BR 101, as modelled in TSW 2, using real life industry comparison calculations. Apaprently, the TSW 2 simulation closely resembles the real life expected result. This is a truly stunning thing for a "train game" to achieve.... and be fun to play at the same time.... ;-)

    So... even if TSW 2 is a game (it is - that's what I said before, right...?).... then it is also a simulator.... (with respect to physics, for some locos and some routes.... for now....). TSW 2 is that good. As a minimum, TSW 2 can be quite fairly described as a "Sim", which is handy - because that is exactly what is in the title.

    So - whatever else has been said in this thread - remember this - we have something special in our hands right now, with TSW 2. It can get better, and I want it to be better.... but what we already have is quite stunning.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    OK, so I buy SEHS. I run the full journey. I then know for certain there will be NOTHING NEW coming for 12 months.
    Am I going to wait around? Likely not
     
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  34. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I can see that but let's say DTG did catch up and release the fixes wouldn't that make better quality DLC for everyone? Think of the children, hahaha. Seriously though releasing DLC on top of existing bugs will only introduce more bugs no?

    I don't think it will be 12 months as DTG would want to make money asap.
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Basically, only if those bugs are in the core... Such as the gradient issue. Doesn't matter which route you're driving, the gradient showed for what the scenario classed as the lead loco, so that affected all routes.
    Whereas most of the remainder of the things people think of are bugs aren't actually bugs, they're lack of knowledge on behalf of DTG (such as the numerous sound issues, heads out cameras, opacity in tunnels etc)

    So that ACTUAL bugs, ie things which DTG didn't intend in the first place, or didn't think were serious enough that people would notice is actually quite small overall
     
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  36. Bertil Persson

    Bertil Persson Active Member

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    Hang on, DTG! There was information on the Roadmap video. Sufficient for me! We can discuss and argue forever. I tend to believe that DTG will do their best to fix the update issues. Sad though, the accidents happened. Maybe someone did something. Instead of blaming anyone, I hope for sollutions, which were announced as far as I heard. I do like the Hamburg-Lübeck route, despite the surprises on PZB. Actually I ran a MRCE Taurus (?) on PZB O and managed to slow down under 80 from 160/140 without the PZB complaining! Then I did other failures, but that's another story. I will be great when the future update comes.

    Then I ran the 112 on LZB Köln-Aachen. There i got stuck! Looks like I done something wrong trying to release the emergency brake or not waiting for the brakes to release, which takes time on some locos/trains. Will try again!

    Or have a leisure tour on Southeastern, my favourite! I have picture on the DTG site in Chatham. May not be the right building, but it's possible to get there. I compared it with Google Map. There you go, Sam!
     
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  37. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You can't judge too much on DTG making mistakes as everyone will make them but imo where you can judge is the time it takes to fix them.
     
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  38. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it’s the Empire State Building that can be seen around 2:16:10? From the latest stream showcasing the fixed LIRR.



    Manhattan is not visible on the PS4 version of LIRR, and I always thought it wasn’t on any platform. Fingers crossed the PS5 and Xbox Series versions will expand the draw distance so all scenery models can be enjoyed on consoles.
     
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  39. Train Sim 9723

    Train Sim 9723 Active Member

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    looks to me more like One World Trade Center than the Empire State Building
     
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  40. Nielsen

    Nielsen Well-Known Member

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    You’re probably right, as the line of sight is in the direction of Lower Manhattan. Of course, my point about draw distance remains.
     
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