Schnellfahrstrecke Kassel - Würzburg: Freight Time Table Guide

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by cwf.green, Sep 2, 2022.

  1. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Even though Schnellfahrstrecke Kassel - Würzburg (KWG) is primarily a high-speed railway (as the name implies) there are a lot of freight trains running across the route at night.

    What's cool about the freight timetable on this route is that all the services are actually based on real trains, with real timings and as much as possible the correct train types for the specific service. Lukas really did a masterful job implementing the freight timetable. Joe was also involved and is the one to thank for creating the freight formations (amongst other things). I had some input on the load configurations of the formations (a long with a special formation that I made myself), and that's why I can make this thread that hopefully helps people navigate all the freight services.

    This thread will follow a similar outline as my earlier thread for Nahverkehr Dresden except I'll be more brief this time (at least initially).

    Freight Formations
    There are at least 10 unique playable freight formations featured in KWG. They vary enough that there should be quite the diversity of driving characteristics, speed limits and required safety system (more on this last part later).

    Name-------------------- Length ----- Weight ----- Brake Setup----- BrH ----- Safety System----- VMAX -------
    Mixed Freight 1 ----- 404 m ------- 923 t -------- G/P ---------------- 77 -------- PZB/LZB ----------- 100 km/h ---
    Mixed Freight 2 ----- 492 m ------- 1446 t ------ LL ------------------ 68 -------- PZB/LZB ----------- 100 km/h ---
    Mixed Freight 3 ----- 535 m ------- 1253 t ------ LL ------------------ 73 -------- PZB/LZB ----------- 100 km/h ---
    Mixed Freight 4 ----- 662 m ------- 1879 t ------ G/G ---------------- 57 -------- PZB ------------------ 90 km/h -----
    10 x Sggmrss-L ----- 296 m ------- 849 t -------- G/P ---------------- 96 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 120 km/h ----
    15 x Sggmrss-L ----- 463 m ------- 1232 t ------- LL ----------------- 93 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 120 km/h ----

    17 x Sggmrss-PL --- 523 m ------- 985 t -------- G/P----------------- 92 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 120 km/h ----
    17 x Sggmrss-L ----- 523 m ------- 1385 t ------- LL ----------------- 90 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 120 km/h ----
    19 x Sggmrss-L ----- 582 m ------- 1538 t ------- LL ----------------- 90 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 120 km/h ----
    15 x Laaers-L --------- 484 m ------- 823 t -------- G/P---------------- 90 -------- PZB/LZB ---------- 100* km/h ---

    Further description and definitions of terms.

    The numbers in front of the Habbiins, Sggmrss and Laaers formations indicate the number of units coupled to the locomotive, not the number of vehicles (which will be doubled). The letters at the end (L or PL) indicate "Loaded" or "Partially-Loaded" in the sense that the wagons carry containers or not (or cars for the Laaers).

    For a description of the "Brake Setup" and how to configure the trains, check out the previous guide I linked above.

    The Safety System column indicates the allowed safety systems.

    I made the formation "Mixed Freight 4" specifically to force "G"-brake to be used on all vehicles in the train. It contains both empty and loaded wagons so no matter what "Fahrplan" you drive the train under you will have to set all brakes to "G" ;)

    Assuming that the train is run with according to "Fahrplan R/P" (which would be most likely for this type of train that is usually much lighter) then the calculated BrH (braked weight percentage) is 57 which is too low for LZB to be used (minimum is 66). If you want to run the train according to "Fahrplan G" then the BrH will be 75 and I think (but could be wrong) that you can run it using LZB.

    *Regarding the Laaers: The way it was explained to me by a driver the Laaers only has the required brake to drive at 120 km/h when empty, but this also seems to depend on the timetable, so perhaps it can drive at 120 km/h while loaded if it has the correct timetable. If you want to be realistic you should probably drive the train at or below 100 km/h in Germany, but perhaps there is a semi-realistic (or even realistic) scenario where 120 km/h is allowed.


    Service Name (Northbound) -------------------------------------------- Formation ----------------------------------------

    60046 Ingolstadt Hbf - Osnabrück ------------------------------------ 15 x Laaers-L -----------------------------------
    50020 Landshut - Lehrte ------------------------------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ------------------------------
    50026 Nürnberg Hafen - Hamburg Billwerder ----------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-L --------------------------------
    50446 Ingolstadt Nord - Maschen --------------------------------
    ----- 19 x Sggmrss-L --------------------------------
    42864 Salzburg Liefering - Dradenau ---------------------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-PL -----------------------------
    60102 Stuttgart Hafen - Bremen Grolland ---------------------
    ----- 15 x Laaers-L -----------------------------------
    60100 Stuttgart Hafen - Hamburg Billwerder -----------------
    ----- 15 x Laaers-L -----------------------------------
    50338 Augsburg Rbf Nord - Maschen ---------------------------
    ----- 10 x Sggmrss-L -------------------------------
    69162 Nürnberg Hafen - Hamburg Waltershof ----------------
    ----- 15 x Sggmrss-L -------------------------------
    40648 Curtici - Rheinhausen ----------------------------------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ----------------------------
    50000 München Riem - Hamburg Billwerder -------------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ----------------------------
    41138 Wien - Hamburg Waltershof ---------------------------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ---------------------------
    50060 Landshut - Wanne Eickel -------------------------------------
    ----- Mixed Freight 1 -----------------------------
    50168 Nürnberg Hafen - Lehrte --------------------------------------
    ----- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ---------------------------
    68716 München Milbertshofen - Bremen Kaiserhafen ------------ 15 x Laaers-L --------------------------------
    50132 Nürnberg Hafen - Lehrte ------------------------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-PL ---------------------------
    50108 München Ost Rbf - Lübeck ---------------------------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L -----------------------------
    43822 Verona Quadrante - Bremen Grolland -------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L ----------------------------



    Service Name (Southbound) -------------------------------------------- Formation ---------------------------------------
    50001 Hamburg Billwerder - München Riem -----------------------
    Mixed Freight 2
    50343 Maschen - München Riem -------------------------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L
    50061 Wanne Eickel - Landshut ---------------------------------------- Mixed Freight 4
    50025 Hamburg Billwerder - Nürnberg Hafen ---------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    50167 Hamburg Billwerder - Ludwigshafen ------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    51177 Seelze Rbf - Kornwestheim -------------------------------------- Mixed Freight 3
    50245 Hamburg Billwerder - Ludwigshafen ------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    43165 Dradenau - Kufstein ------------------------------------------------ 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    88899 Dradenau - Nürnberg Hafen ------------------------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L
    95083 Lübeck Skandinavienkai - Ludwigshafen ------------------ 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    60101 Hamburg Billwerder - Stuttgart Hafen ----------------------- Mixed Freight 3
    69163 Hamburg Waltershof - Nürnberg Hafen --------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    41139 Hamburg Waltershof - Budapest BILK ----------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    41141 Hamburg Waltershof - Freilassing ----------------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L
    60063 Braunschweig Rbf - Ingolstadt ---------------------------------- Mixed Freight 1
    68750 Dradenau - Aalen ---------------------------------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    40561 Padborg - Verona Quadrante ------------------------------------ 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    50244 Ludwigshafen - Hamburg Billwerder ------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    69298 Mannheim Rbf - Hamburg Waltershof ------------------------ 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    69160 Beimerstetten - Hamburg Waltershof ------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    95084 Ludwigshafen - Lübeck Skandinavienkai -------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L
    51203 Seelze Rbf - Nürnberg Rbf ---------------------------------------- Mixed Freight 3
    69161 Hamburg Waltershof - Beimerstetten -------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-L
    69259 Hamburg Waltershof - München Riem ------------------------- Mixed Freight 3
    51196 Maschen - Nürnberg Rbf -------------------------------------------- Mixed Freight 2
    43821 Bremen Grolland - Verona Quadrante -------------------------- 17 x Sggmrss-PL
    45153 Hannover Linden - Verona Quadrante -------------------------- 15 x Sggmrss-L

    Lastly, here comes a list of all the services that use a given formation.

    Mixed Freight 1
    50060 Landshut - Wanne Eickel
    60063 Braunschweig Rbf - Ingolstadt


    Mixed Freight 2
    50001 Hamburg Billwerder - München Riem
    51196 Maschen - Nürnberg Rbf


    Mixed Freight 3
    51177 Seelze Rbf - Kornwestheim
    60101 Hamburg Billwerder - Stuttgart Hafen
    69161 Hamburg Waltershof - Beimerstetten
    69259 Hamburg Waltershof - München Riem

    Mixed Freight 4
    50061 Wanne Eickel - Landshut


    10 x Sggmrss-L
    50338 Augsburg Rbf Nord - Maschen

    15 x Sggmrss-L
    45153 Hannover Linden - Verona Quadrante
    95084 Ludwigshafen - Lübeck Skandinavienkai
    41141 Hamburg Waltershof - Freilassing
    88899 Dradenau - Nürnberg Hafen
    50343 Maschen - München Riem
    50108 München Ost Rbf - Lübeck
    69162 Nürnberg Hafen - Hamburg Waltershof

    17 x Sggmrss-PL
    43821 Bremen Grolland - Verona Quadrante
    69298 Mannheim Rbf - Hamburg Waltershof
    40561 Padborg - Verona Quadrante
    95083 Lübeck Skandinavienkai - Ludwigshafen
    43165 Dradenau - Kufstein

    50025 Hamburg Billwerder - Nürnberg Hafen
    50167 Hamburg Billwerder - Ludwigshafen

    50132 Nürnberg Hafen - Lehrte
    50168 Nürnberg Hafen - Lehrte
    41138 Wien - Hamburg Waltershof
    50000 München Riem - Hamburg Billwerder
    50020 Landshut - Lehrte
    42864 Salzburg Liefering - Dradenau
    40648 Curtici - Rheinhausen

    17 x Sggmrss-L
    43822 Verona Quadrante - Bremen Grolland
    50026 Nürnberg Hafen - Hamburg Billwerder
    50245 Hamburg Billwerder - Ludwigshafen
    69163 Hamburg Waltershof - Nürnberg Hafen
    41139 Hamburg Waltershof - Budapest BILK
    68750 Dradenau - Aalen
    50244 Ludwigshafen - Hamburg Billwerder
    69160 Beimerstetten - Hamburg Waltershof
    69161 Hamburg Waltershof - Beimerstetten
    43821 Bremen Grolland - Verona Quadrante

    19 x Sggmrss-L
    50446 Ingolstadt Nord - Maschen

    15 x Laaers-L
    60046 Ingolstadt Hbf - Osnabrück
    60102 Stuttgart Hafen - Bremen Grolland
    60100 Stuttgart Hafen - Hamburg Billwerder
    68716 München Milbertshofen - Bremen Kaiserhafen


    I'll probably upload a pdf or google spreadsheet later since reading the tables on the forums is not really optimal.

    I hope you have fun driving the freight trains on Schnellfahrstrecke Kassel - Würzburg! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
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  2. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    Really cool info. So to setup these trains correctly, I would have to jump out the cab and change the brakes on each car? Or are they setup like this automatically? Specifically asking about the Mixed Freight 4, the one with the G brakes. 660 meters of train will take half an hour to setup…
     
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  3. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    If the editor is representative of the game (it should be) then you only need to change four wagons: all the Kijls wagons. The reason for this is that the other wagons are scripted (since Dresden-Riesa) to initialize with the brakes in "G" if the formation weight exceeds 1600t (not technically correct if all the wagons weigh above 32 tonnes but it works for the formations on KWG). The Kijls seems to be missing this script.
     
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  4. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Deus ex machina. Thx for the cruccial info \o/
     
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  5. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent information and furthermore Schnellfahrstrecke Hannover Kassel Würzburg 185.2 has a chance to Spawn on Hauptstrecke München Augsburg Schnellfahrstrecke Köln Aachen finally allowing Freight to use LZB on those routes.
    This should have been written as Wien Kledering to Hamburg Waltershof.
     
  6. Choo choo

    Choo choo Active Member

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    Where did you get this info from?
     
  7. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Ive not seen or heard about this before either. Really hope it is the case, and not just idle speculation
     
  8. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see you were involved. Thanks for the insight! Especially looking forward to the mixed fright 4 run under PZB, obviously:D
     
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  9. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Same here. Thank you for your hard work, cwf.green. I'm more than a little annoyed that I won't be able to play TSW3 (or 2 for that matter) for some months yet, but I'm very much looking forward to experiencing all this in a few months' time.
     
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  10. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Actually I based it on in game observation if you have a different DLC locomotives layering on a route you own have Schnellfahrstrecke Hannover Kassel Würzburg with Hauptstrecke München Augsburg Schnellfahrstrecke Köln Aachen and Main Spessart Bahn. Schnellfahrstrecke Hannover Würzburg 185.2 displaces the older 185.2 from Main Spessart Bahn Sort of like how Riesa-Dresden 143s displaces the original Ruhr Sieg Nord 143s if both Riesa-Dresden and Ruhr Sieg Nord were owned
     
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  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Really hope your theory plays out.
     
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  12. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Just a shame most if not all of the freight runs are too long to do without saving.
     
  13. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    It sure is one of his randomly made up DLCs and updates. DTG will not change the trains because it might break something (more then the usual amount of bugs) and has said so many times.
     
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  14. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    So since you might be the German freight specialist, I would like to ask a question: I was driving the 50020 and it started to rain. On the way, the train started to loose speed rapidly on the parts where the gradient went to 1.1 or more. The thing is, it became slippery! The train slowed down to 55 on a few parts, although I set down the traction so that I wouldn’t get wheelslip. All good, but then I came to Kassel. After leaving the last tunnel, I had to slow down to 80; but the train didn’t stop there! It went down to zero on the gradient of 0.4. And there I was! I tried about 20 minutes to get it driving again, but it didn’t move anywhere! Now my question would be: What should I do? Since sand doesn’t help in TSW and the traction also didn’t help in any setting, I gave up and the AI took over. The train was running again after 5 seconds…
    Any tipps?
     
  15. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean it was not able to sustain its speed of 80 on a gradient of 0,4 in wet conditions? Or was it some kind of emergency breaking? A train below 1400t should manage to keep this speed up for some time, especially, as you said, you also managed the 1,2 gradients, which, if I remember right are much longer then the 0,4 ahead of Kassel?!

    But, in TSW there is not much you can do, really, apart from applying as much power as possible, without the wheels slipping, as you did…
     
  16. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    well, I came to a stop because I applied the brakes a bit to hard at some point, but they were loose at about 40km/h; since then it just dropped in speed. As it stopped, nothing helped! Not with/without AFB and regardless of the applied traction…
     
  17. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t sound too dramatic, to be honest. 40 should still work. I can imagine that it will be hard starting to move and overcome the break away point, however, 40 is still forward movement. Maybe the conditions where as bad and my feeling is wrong. I’ll try this as well, at some point.
     
  18. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, 40 wouldn’t be a problem, especially when approaching a stop- but the train just lost speed although no breaks were applied
     
  19. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I haven't tried that specific service yet but these are my general tips:
    1. Don't run the BR185 with AFB except for holding speed right now. People are reporting bugs with the AFB braking for LZB on the BR185 at the moment and I have reproduced this as well. Furthermore it's actually more realistic to drive freight trains either without AFB enabled or just as a simple cruise control if my discussions with drivers are representative. AFB is not as good as an experienced driver in controlling the train, especially for heavier trains and longer trains (and especially so if the train is in LL or G/G brake setup). Also, afaik the real world AFB has a bad habit of making tiny applications and then releasing over and over which can cause stuck brakes and other issues. Automatic overcharge will somewhat prevent this but it's not perfect.

    2. Brake early and little rather than late and heavy. This is harder for driving under PZB but thankfully most trains allow LZB on the route. Use the distance to the next speed restriction to begin braking before the AFB Vsoll drops to/below your current speed. Maybe lower your speed if you are following a train to prevent having to stop the train (more important if the adhesion is bad and the train is heavy but it's always a good philosophy to increase safety).

    3. Energy management is key with the long and heavy gradients. This is hard to achieve if you are a beginner on the route but with more experience you will learn where the gradients are and can plan ahead so you don't have to stop on a heavy gradient. One issue here is that sometimes you are required to stop in a bad spot by the scenario/service.

    4. Sanding does work in TSW, despite what people are saying. It's just that the wheelslip protection system automatically uses sand (not quite realistic but it's necessary in Simugraph as far as I understand, since the physics engine is 60 ticks per second while the real world WSP can update perhaps up to 1000 Hz or at least several hundred times a second) so if you apply sanding while the wheels are already slipping (or in supercreep) you're comparing "automatic sanding" vs "manual sanding" i.e. the same effect in the end. Because the WSP is limited to 60 ticks per second it will lower traction more aggressively than is necessary (at least at first) so you can squeeze out some extra TE by manually trying to find the highest TE before slipping occurs (with manual sanding applied before hand).
     
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  20. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    Ok, thanks for the tipps! I‘ll try again sometime :D
     
  21. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    cwf.green sorry for pinging you. I wanted to drive the mixed freight train 4 (50061). However, I cannot find it in the timetable. The return service 50060 is there, not so the 50061. Am I missing something? Maybe a certain loco required or something?
     
  22. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I will take a look. It would be sad if the Mixed 4 train is not drivable.
     
  23. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, another question. I am currently driving a mixed freight 2 train. As you have stated, its maximum speed is 100kph, however, LZB still registers my train as max speed 120kph. Is this a limitation of the LZB in game or is it a bug?

    Also, I noticed that LL was not set up on the train. I had to do it manually for the loco and the cars. Is this meant to be like this? I mean, it’s great fun, but not so convenient if you have to set them all to G on a 600m train:)

    For reference, I am driving the 50001 service.

    Thanks for the set up of those trains! Great fun to play around with these.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  24. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, sounds like the most fun to drive…
     
  25. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I think it is possible to set the Vmax for LZB to 100 since it seems to be dependent on service rather than type (ICE1 and ICE3 are both passenger trains but have different Vmax under LZB on the route) but I’m not sure. Unfortunately all the freight trains have Vmax 120 km/h on the route even though this is not realistic.

    Yes, you need to set up LL manually. For the G/G train thankfully you only need to set the four Kijls wagons to G (and the loco), everything else is set automatically.
     
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  26. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    A question if I may over the NJ motorail services, LZB seems to limit to 140km/h rather than the 100km/h I was expecting as thats the Vmax for the Laaers-L if I am understanding correctly, should we drive these services at 100km/h or are these modified Laaers for NJ?
     
  27. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    why only four?
     
  28. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I think cwe mentioned in another thread that it was a compromise, as the real Waggons which are used irl are not in game. So they used what they had and gave it the realistic speed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
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  29. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Because there are only four Kijls wagons in that formation and all the other wagons already has a script from DRA that sets the brakes to ”G” based on formation weight.
     
  30. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I misunderstood you. You were talking about setting up the all G formation, not the LL formation. My bad.
     
  31. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    It's the 23:51 service (50061 Wanne-Eickel to Landshut). Maybe that helps?
     
  32. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    I found the issue. This service is indeed only drivable with the BR185, which comes with this route. All other locos (also the other 185s) won't show this service..

    Thanks for your help. Now I can go and have some fun:cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
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  33. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Great! By the way, AFB should be safe to use on this train since it's not allowed to run with LZB enabled, but I would highly recommend (I know you already know this) anyone to not use the AFB to slow down the speed. It is not safe to do it for PZB restrictions and it will most likely use a heavy application that at best makes you undershoot by a lot, but very likely will make the train stop ;)

    EDIT: Red text is kind of wrong. After taking a bit with some freight drivers I'd caution against using AFB at all on this train (if you want to drive it realistically). The reason is that AFB will invariably try to apply airbrakes on the down gradients on this route and even the real AFB is quite bad at this so it will make small applications and then release or make a larger application right after without letting the application settle. All these small and quick applications are a recipe for stuck brakes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
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  34. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Ah…. Well this is a treat, more so if we knew which of the twelve 185s it is :cool:.

    Maybe someone could solve this long standing issue ;) (no need to tell me about the mod, I’m being cheeky)
     
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  35. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Can you direct me to this mod? I don’t actually know it:o
     
  36. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Uninstall all DLC except SKW/KWG ;) (just kidding).
     
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  37. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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  38. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    What I’m learning about German trains is nothing can ever be simple.
     
  39. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Easy way to tell a SFS Hannover Würzburg fromMain Spessart Bahn 185.2 Rallion is to check if you can activate LZB on it. If not you got a Main Spessart Bahn Version
     
  40. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    That's rather true for the whole country. :D

    Cheers
     
  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    You have to visit PL one day :D
     
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  42. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The workaround would be to set the AFB to 100 rather than max
     
  43. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can always reduce speed to whatever speed you want, the question was more into the direction whether it would be a limitation that all cargo trains are LZB set to the same speed. This has been answered in the meantime not to be the case. Also, we have established in another thread that the Laaers fright Waggons are actually able to run 120kph under LZB, which makes the 120kph correct in many cases…
     
  44. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    It did and when I did 42864 Salzburg to Hamburg Dradenau the freight train behind me 60102 Stuttgart Bremen had a Riesa-Dresden 185.5. Provided you do chaos run at Rohrbach bbf. For the freight trains if you don't max throttle them on steep tunnels you start to lose speed and risk rolling back
     
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  45. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I am amazed by this . . . and thoroughly convinced never to attempt any of these activities.
     
  46. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Then my thread has had the opposite effect I intended :|
    You can of course run the services however you want. This thread and the data/instructions should be taken as things you can do to make it more realistic, if that is something that interests you, but it is by no means a requirement. :)
     
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  47. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Amazing job with all the research and tuning
     
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  48. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    Just to add a little info: German regulations forbid non-LZB trains on high speed lines, and it might be that different locomotive manufacturers have different minimum LZB Brh, as can be seen in the following (blurry...) charts from DB BR 187 and BR 193:
    20221108235538.jpg
    20221108235528.jpg
    Here, the minimum Train Brh for LZB of BR187 is 56, while the same item of BR193 is 66.
    These are, unfortunately, not for BR 185 or BR 182. But they make the point mentioned above.
    If these numbers represent a standard value for Bombardier and Siemens, then it's reasonable for mixed freight 4 to run with LZB, and also explains why it's limited to BR185. (I don't have BR187 so couldn't check that, but I doubt if DTG actually allowed BR187 to drive the service 50061 since the other BR185s from previous routes couldn't drive the service)

    Besides that, the container wagon Sggmrss has automatically adjusted brakes that could maintain the Brh at 100 as long as the gross rail load is within 108t as documented on the wagon:
    20221109000739_1.jpg
    If the total weight exceeds 108t, the Brake weight would still be 108t.
    But again, I doubt if DTG actually implemented all these.

    I really enjoyed your posts about brake issues. Looking forward to more of your discoveries!
     
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  49. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is a bit of a mystery for me as well. I have come across this one before and have not found a single person who could really explain this to me.

    But the theory about Siemens and Bombardier seems to be correct. This one comes out of the manual for the ES64U2 (BR182):
    upload_2022-11-9_13-31-25.png

    and this one 185.1:
    upload_2022-11-9_14-0-8.png

    Same phenomena. Even though the 182 manual is actually from 2007 and the 185 from 2005, I could still imagine that the Siemens values could have been corrected by now. Unfortunately, I have not found a newer version of these manuals, hence, I have no idea if this is true or not... After all, from a safety standpoint it does not make sense, as the way Brh is calculated and the effect it has during braking is the same, regardless of what loco you are using.

    Besides, the values for LZB are min 60Brh, as can be seen for example in 483.0202:
    upload_2022-11-9_13-37-26.png

    Hence, a Brh 57 train I will always drive with PZB (in the Sim), as I dont have a table to adjust the real value to.

    Regarding the automatically adjusted brakes "automatische Lastabbremsung", this was discussed in another thread:
    German Train Physics Inaccuracies (freight Edition) | Dovetail Games Forums
    And I do believe that this is actually correctly modelled.

    Last but not least, you say that German regulators forbid non-LZB trains on high speed lines. Even though I have heard this as well, I have not seen this in written anywhere. And I have also been told from a driver that you can run PZB trains of those lines. I would be really interested to know with what regulation this is actually regulated:D I could imagine that this is standard ops only, especially on partial block, as it would kill your capacity, however, I do not think it is actually forbidden. Also, LZB equipped does not mean LZB switched on... If it is a capacity thing, it would be a DBNetz thing, who is actually not the "regulator", which is the "Eisenbahn Bundesamt".
     
  50. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I just asked a freight driver who drives both the BR185 and BR182 and according to him you can indeed run without LZB on routes like KWG. Not allowing you to run without LZB would cause issues in case the LZB is malfunctioning or the driver wasn't qualified. The route has visual signals and PZB magnets (both in game and IRL) for this purpose.

    Regarding the KE-GP-A valve, this is realistically implemented since Riesa-Dresden and the brake force scales with weight up to 108t. I would say that if a lever is movable you can be *relatively* sure that it has some underlying simulation implemented (might exist exceptions but the 4 levers on the freight wagons are not an exception). Regarding exceptions, the number of these probably grow if you go back in the past lol, but I'm more speaking about new-ish releases.
     
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