Settling The Br 101 Discussion

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by w.lichko, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The problem with separating loco and cab car is fundamental. Let's say X route comes with one loco and one cab-car.
    Would the cab car layer only activate if you have the BR101 leaving those who don't have it with half DLC?
    Include the BR101 so who bought the DLC wasted 15€?

    The only solution would be either to include another IC loco (such as the BR120) or using the MRCE 182 (or even the 146) for hauling the cab car and then let the 101 substitute it.
     
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  2. caspargray

    caspargray Active Member

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    Recommendation: charge £16.99 (or anything under £18 to make it work) and give us the cab car, and layers on as many routes as realistic, and make it a ‘flagship’
     
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  3. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I'd likewise pay extra for the cab car, as long as there was a service layer on HMA etc.
     
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  4. Mr.Drew

    Mr.Drew Member

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    I would also pay more to get it with the cab car and/or more options to use the loco on various routes.
     
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  5. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    I would really like it if DTG somehow steps up from their usual prices to do something that wouldn't be doable with the usual budget.
     
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  6. DeyKey

    DeyKey Member

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    Even if the cab car is not included, they should add it to RRO and HMA with a sandwich formation, so it's not only on HRR
     
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  7. phips

    phips Active Member

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    I think everyone who's a fan of german railway or the BR101 itstelf would be okay with paying a little extra
     
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    How much would be a reasonable price? Instead of 101 with 1/2 class cars and layer for HRR you'd get 101, 1/2 class cars and layers for HRR, RRO and HMA (those are all it runs on, aren't they?). What would be a fair price for this?
     
  9. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone will have a different value to this. However, one of the most important things to me is variety, and if layers were applied to several routes alongside the cab car, then I'd be willing to pay 50% extra, as the gameplay would be sufficient to make it worthwhile.
     
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  10. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    If they include the cab car I would say 25/30€
     
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  11. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Virtual Railroads (3rd party TS developer) made a 101 with 1st and 2nd class cars plus cab car which they sell for 22 pounds on their website. They sell a version of this without the cab car for about 15 pounds on steam itself. I've no clue why they or DTG chose to limit the DLC on steam but both of these are very very highly reviewed (virtual railroads are basically like Armstrong Powerhouse but for Germany, and even better some say). Current TSW loco dlc price is £12 and remembering that 3rd parties tend to charge more than DTG I'd reckon they could charge something between £18-20 (no idea of other currencies) and include 101, 1st car, 2nd car and cab car plus layers, and as long as the physics and audio are reasonable (I don't think anyone would expect AP or virtual simulations level of detail but a reasonable effort here is fine) it would sell well with all the content a pack like this would give. This would also mean it could be layered into future routes. Honestly maybe they could charge as much as Virtual Railroad did if it was that good. Right now they're offering with this is £12 for 20 minute services with a new train + 2 similar passenger cars that probably won't be able to be layered into future routes. That's not £12 of content and gameplay if you compare it to other loco DLC. Of course they'll say that you can use the "scenario planner" (quick drive) but improvements to this aren't on the roadmap right now, which means they aren't coming any time soon.

    Does anyone else find that DTG are wildly inconsistent with what £12 of content is in terms of Loco DLC? Sometimes you'll just get one loco like the DB BR 182 (poor audio and not great physics) that adds services to a fairly boring route, not great. Sometimes you get something like a decently modelled multiple unit which substitutes on services for 30 minutes/45 minutes drive which is a little better. Or you get something similar which can be used on multiple routes, nice. Sometimes you get something really good like the DB BR 363 with some in depth scenarios and timetable services, really good. Then you've got the BR Heavy freight pack and the upcoming 1970s GWE pack which offers a lot more trains/wagons + gameplay for the same price. Why is the amount and quality of content and gameplay offered for £12 all over the place? The reason I'm sure that most of these don't sell well is that in comparison to the price of routes the amount of new gameplay being offered does not scale linearly to that route price and most of these loco DLC come down to "Only buy full price if you really really like the loco, because of quality/gameplay/X this isn't worth the money, otherwise wait for a deep sale". Seriously go and look at reviews for loco DLC for Train Sim Classic on steam and a statement just like this comes up on nearly every single one, often multiple times. It seems sometimes that DTG do not learn from these mistakes, which frustrates people in the community (especially people on here). At least with TSW2 we are occasionally getting £12 worth of quality content and gameplay for loco DLC, in train sim classic it was extremely rare. Armstrong Powerhouse and others have made a living off of providing upgrade packs to TS classic loco DLC for goodness sake, and these upgrade packs ain't cheap either yet they sell well!

    Anyway, if any of you watched the roadmap stream last night it would seem DTG have made their decision to effectively ignore this feedback and press ahead with their own plans. I think if you want to run some realistic intercity services and you're on PC you're much better off buying train sim classic and getting the virtual railroads 101, yes TS classic is showing its age now, and its twice the price of a loco DLC, but its four times the value and its utterly fantastic. I hope that the TSW DLC turns out very good because at that price its not worth it gameplay wise, and console players are getting the short end of the stick somewhat.
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't tend to buy loco dlc. The only loco dlc I bought was the lirr budd m3 emu and the mp36 baby bullet. Loco dlc's in general don't tend to do well at all especially when they are restricted to a route that you don't own or may not have interest in and is boring. I've seen those statements for ts2021 locos on steam which is not suprising. It's not a suprise that dtg effectly chose to not listen to the feedback and add the cabcar. The 101 is a train that I will not be buying at all
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  13. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, they have brought up that loco DLC does not sell so well, but they say that is is because of the ownership requirements, however it is probably more to do with the value of a pack, even if it is one of the better packs such as the BR heavy freight which adds a lot to gameplay, or the BR 363 which was very good quality, these packs are still half the price of full DLC, which probably puts people off.

    For the price that they are I do think they need to aim for what they achieved with the BR HF pack, and as for pricing a 101 and CabCar, the closer they get to the full DLC price, the more sales they will likely lose.

    I don't think that this subject did not come up when they agreed to make the 101, so it leads me to believe that they assume the 101 will still sell quite well for a loco DLC, just because it's a 101.

    The upcoming 465 does not look like it will add much gameplay value either, but is another sought after train.

    I suspect that the scenario planner is being factored into the value of these packs on DTG's end, which if true, I don't really agree with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think if you increase sales of a loco dlc, dtg will just lose more in terms of sales because I don't think the majority of customers would want to spend $24.99 or even $29.99 on a train that you can only use on hrr (which not everybody owns and is too short) just for a cabcar especially when loco dlc's don't tend to sell well anyways
     
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  15. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't mind paying what they charge now for a single train, however I certainly would not pay the same as a full DLC for one, even if it's a train I love.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I would not pay $29.99 for a train either. $20 is fine
     
  17. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it could definitely still sell well, there will be many german fans particularly on console that like the 101, though I believe loco DLC sales among the more casual console fans may not necessarily be fantastic because they just look at the price for amount of content and are turned off immediately. I certainly do this when I play games in genres that I'm not a huge fan of, like Call of Duty, and think why would anyone buy these gun camos? To me they seem expensive for what you get but I do see other players using them. It's the same thing for casual train fans I would imagine.
     
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  18. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah this is it exactly, I think the current price is fine, but the quality and content does seem to vary rather wildly, the same can be said for routes, but with those the shorter ones usually have more to do than longer ones, however the locos seem to be the opposite, the less you get in a loco DLC is just..less, the BR HF pack has 2 trains, freight wagons and an entire service roster, whilst if you look at something like the class 52 or the latest Dash 8, you literally only get the locos.
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    When a loco won't add anything to a route in terms of new services, that could be a reason why people don't buy it as well like the dash 8 or the m3
     
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  20. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    There was talk about trying to make loco DLC's standalone a little while ago, if they can make that happen the 101 is probably the loco to try it with. In TS a loco has a required route for scenarios but works fine without it, there shouldn't be any technical hurdles for a system like that in TSW.

    If they sold it as a standalone DLC and added the cab car it would then be possible to add new layers to future DLC's like they do with the Dosto's, if its tied to HRR I don't see how that can happen. Really the 101 would have been better featured in a new route instead of as a loco DLC. I think alot of people are worried that we'll only ever get layers in HRR and we'll lose the chance for the cab car at all, which for a loco as widely used as the 101 is a massive shame.
     
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  21. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No worries, i'm on it :D But i can't change anything about the cab car decision.

    (for those who not know, i made all the vR EL and not EL locos technically and sound since 2011)
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why ts2021 locos are standalone dlcs but not tsw2 locos. If they can do it in ts then surely they can do it in tsw2
     
  23. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Someone covered this further up, the BR 101 will probably end up being a topic that will always be around if it is released without a cab car, so if they were to go ahead with the current plan I don't think we will see another 101 released with the cab car for a couple of years, as not to upset anyone who did buy it.
     
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  24. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    I was thinking the same thing. I just had a look when the 182 was released and it'll be 2 years in April, which is probably in the release window for Hamburg – Lübeck.
     
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  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i'm not really interested in that, the 182 probably wont have new passenger wagons, since MRCE passenger hauls are quite rare, and also the 112 is just a 143 that can do 160kph, let alone the section of line doesn't offer much to do, so what that route will offer with 2 re-used locos remains a mystery to me.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hamburg-Lubeck after doing research is a route that I won't buy. It feels like hrr but with different trains and the route is quite bland as well and the db br 112 looks the same as the db br 143. The DB BR 143 is my least favorite german train as well
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  27. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Oof
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    On RRO they could only be ornamental AI trains, as the only two IC services (31 and 55) run from Wuppertal straight through to Dortmund, they don't stop in between.
     
  29. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    https://www.bahn.de/p/view/mdb/kursbuch/mdb_323445_hagen_hbf_2021_ab_heft.pdf

    This timetable from the deutsche bahn website seems to show that there are intercity trains that go from Hagen to various places, with some stopping at Wuppertal? For example the 07:53 IC 2015?
     
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  30. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    This all just seems, like so many issues DTG faces with the community, to be completely and needlessly self inflicted. BR101s are accompanied most frequently in passenger service with a cab car. If they're going to make a BR101 and sell it, it needs to do the basics that a BR101 does, which includes making use of a cab car. Justification for why they're not doing it because it's on a route where it isn't needed yada, yada, yada, is performing mental gymnastics after the fact to justify a short sighted decision to cut corners either not anticipating the community blowback or simply not caring. Maybe you can get away with doing some more minor train dirty, but this is perhaps the most iconic and beloved modern German rail loco. You can't half-ass that in a program that bills itself as a train simulator.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree but I guess the budget didn't allow it although it makes me wonder how much does it cost dtg to make a train?
     
  32. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    While there will be a budget, obviously, I think the resource that DTG (at least from a developmental view) run out of most, is time, it’s becoming more and more apparent that the pressure to put the content out as quickly as possible is a near immovable line.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think the higher ups should give the devs more time for development. I think it would be worth it at the end and could lead to even better quality products
     
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  34. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah not only that but a little more time away from the constant development of new content and more time invested into upgrading the core, and focusing on their extensive to do list for fixes and improvements would go a long way for customer satisfaction.
     
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  35. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think, if anything, that they know exactly how iconic and sought after the 101 is, so they most likely assume it will still sell well without the cab car, and unfortunately they’re probably right.
     
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  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Problem is all ICs starting with two are run by the IC2 consist... basically repainted RE Doppelstock thinking they can join the cool club.
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with that. It's not like every player is gonna buy everything they make
     
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  38. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Ahh I see, there is a couple of IC 1XX on there though that stop at Wuppertal, a couple going to Stuttgart, but yes it is very few.
     
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  39. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, IC on RRO will be pretty easy to sort out once the 146 and DoStos get enhanced for the livery creator, from there we can just follow the DB method.

    White paint.
     
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  40. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Because in TSW, the loco DLCs use assets from the route themselves, while in TS they are self-contained.
     
  41. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If there was ever a prize given in the form of a livery this would be a great candidate - they surely have the IC and DB licence and the paintjob is even one that exists in the real world.
     
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  42. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    The Twindexx Vario vehicles are rather different to the dostos we already have in-game though.
     
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  43. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, just not so much on the quality front.
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's also a) easy and b) boring
     
  45. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to play devils advocate here but with the current livery substitution system we would have RE services in IC liveries spawning randomly... although I like the idea as it follows exactly DB's way of thinking ;)

    Back to topic: I still have some hope left for a reconsideration regarding the cab car although I didn't watch the stream.

    HMA already was a massive disappointment (on console) and there is no need to let it happen again.

    But when the state of the DLC leads to a purchase when the 101 is recycled in a route DLC in two years which is put on sale someday then I guess so be it...
     
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  46. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    When they said that neither time nor budget were allocated in order to make the control car, don't expect that to change.
    Investment of time and money are calculated before even starting the work and a target finishing date is set.

    It does not matter if you say that you would be willing to pay 16,19 or 22 bucks for this dlc if they had the control car and it does also not matter if you want to humbly offer them to delay the release for them to fix/add to the dlc.
    They have a business model in which a loco dlc will have the usual target price and a release date that is fixed as long as it is not gamebreakingly unplayable close to this date.

    I am saying this because this is the most likely outcome and expecting anything on that scope to change is only setting you up for even more disappointment as there is already.

    By all means, voice your opinions as this is intended - but arguing whether this dlc will or will not, should or should not come with the cab car is futile at this point...
     
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  47. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Oh I don't think anyone expects DTG to change their mind. I think we all saw the roadmap stream on tuesday where Sam stated their decision. The discussion here though should hopefully provide useful feedback to them in terms of how much content and gameplay their future (not currently on roadmap) loco DLC should offer for it to not cause disappointment (for some) before it even releases. Just my opinion.
     
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  48. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness, I can understand that the pack could potentially be too bloated for their aimed effort and price. This is why I asked myself why they would not do the complete train set and have it as a main runner loco for a upcoming route.
    If the 101 is this famous and loved, then it should be able to carry a big portion of potential route sales, right?

    All I am hoping for this dlc is right now that they will break out of their usual pattern and add at least a couple of timetable runs to other routes, but deep inside I am prepared to accept that it won't happen either.
     
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  49. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, there are many German routes for which this could be the flagship loco, Koln-Bonn-Koblenz route for example has a boat load of IC services which run on it. Someone has also made a good suggestion in the suggestion forums about another route which could include a cab car.
     
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  50. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    We shall see. Sam acknowledged the feedback a couple of times, and with saying that the 101 dlc is just the way it is, it might be that our feedback will bring the possibility for them to do exactly that, including the control car with some other dlc.
     

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