Simrail 2021 Vs Tsw2

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by arapajoe3, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    In my view, this subject is neither black nor white. There seem to be quite a few shades of grey in between. Maik´s works speak for themselves, the TSG Locos are some real pieces of art. Yet, I do not fully agree with him. Let´s not compare TSW3 to AAA shooter games or alikes, fine with me. But let´s compare it to what I believe is an even more complex simulation software: MS Flight Simulator. And that runs on Gen9 consoles smooth and easy while TSW3 still struggles in many places. I suspect that DTG doesn´t tell us the whole truth about optimization here.

    Which brings me to the second point.

    Dovetail has clearly a credibility problem, and why doesn´t one wonder about this? Because they deliver "patches" which turn things worse. The classic here is the derailment bug. This patch was meant to fix SoS issues and messed up the whole sim in a lot of routes. Yet, they brought it over to TSW3. WTH??? The germans in the forum will understand: "Die klassische Verschlimmbesserung"
    And secondly: The blatant "summer-hiatus" lie. Instead of focusing on the bug fixes, as per DTG´s promise, they come up with an also bug-infested new version of TSW. WTH???

    So, in my book that deserves bashing. And BIG time!

    I work with international customers from all around the world as a project manager for a (not to be named, but big) high-tech company. If I´d treat my customers the way Dovetail treats their customers - means us - I´d be dragged by a horse through the village, quartered and chopped to pieces. My head would end up on a spike to be shown at the village´s central market.

    Well, you get the picture ...:cool:

    Anyway, while some DTG bashing might be overdone, most of these bashings they called for.
    Just my two cents ...

    Now, as a last word: I DO enjoy TSW2, it´s relaxing and can be fun. But please, Please, PLEASE ...don´t come up with more patches that make things worse (means journeys and scenarios unplayable). Don´t come up with anything at all if you are not able to fix issues. There´s no rollback on PS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
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  2. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The 1st image is from 11:48 am when it's raining and the 2nd is from 12:22 pm some time after the rain. The train was standing still at a siding for that time. I'm wondering whether the weather was taken from a weather server in real time and not only dependent on time but also on position, and if not, then I'm hoping that the transitions there aren't so chaotic as in TSW.
     
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  3. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No, that is definitely the most wrong comparison you can do. Yes, i understand that people think of those two games were quite similar in what they do, but it's definitely not. TSW and how it works is way nearer by a AAA shooter game than MSFS is in any aspect. The need of rendering ground coverage with high details is the difference. MSFS does not have that mostly. As soon as you leaved the runway into the air, all the compute power is there for the sky and the simulation. The ground is a simple geometry with one complex material on it (what makes it look nice from above). Even the higher detailed areas are not nearly as detailed as in a train simulator.

    For the track renderer and the shadow. I mean i could tell you why it is as it is. But that does not help. There is maybe a possibility, with a lot of extra work to spent into a route build, to make it look better. At least it would work the same as in TS1 with the vR Tracks. They have a fake shadow rendered into the track ballast texture for when the real time shadow disappears at a certain distance. But that works only because the mips were edited massively by hand what needed a huge amount of time to do. Tbh. i have no idea if that could do the trick in TSW too as the track renderer works quite different and is a way more complex thingy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
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  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Quite a few people claim that TSW3 is badly optimized and could do much better. Also people claim TSW is not a simulation and we need far more detail.

    I disagree with both opinions. I think DTG performs poor on testing, but they are good in finding optimization in performance. I also think TSW is a simulation. But you should keep in mind that every simulation is a simplified representation or the real world. TSW simulates the conductor is a very limited way, but focusses on train physics. The simulation of driving cars also is very primitive, but it is a simulation. It always is a matter of choices and you may disagree with the choices,but I think we might be more respectful to the way the choices DTG made are implemented.

    Bottom line, if it is not good enough, you should not buy it and we may wish more, but be prepared not to get it. The only real issue I have is that DTG until today did not manage to solve the testing issues. I think they can do better, but not in the way they work now. That's another topic.
     
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  5. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Hi Maik,

    I trust your expertise. Possibly it´s a wrong comparison. I stand corrected.
    Would you agree on a comparison with the Assassins Creed franchise? Or the Horizon games? I mean, hell, the latest AC (Origins, Odyssee, Valhalla) have a breathtakingly detailed rendering of quite a big world around you. Detailed maps, fur, grass, plants, trees, ships, machines, mountains, rivers, water falls, TRAINS as well ;) ....... you name it, I´ve mentioned only a few.
    Yet these games run lightly, smoothly, like greased on my lowly, lowly PS4 Slim (OK with a 2Tb SSD implement). Superb lighting/shadowing and stunning sounds. AND with automatic save features, and several slots for manual saving as well.

    When I look and play these games, I dunno, I just can´t help it to ask myself: Hey, why can´t they push TSW into that graphical class or have it at least better flowing without stutters?
    Oh, and no bugs and crashes...
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
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  6. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i played these 3 ACs a lot and analysed them technically a lot more. And that shows how they can trick the player to believe being in the perfect world. AC has lots of problems and renders thing not far away. Lots of popping in of assets ect. pp. Basically the same problems TSW has and that is not a surprise. That it looks so stunning in the AC games lays on the good placement of assets, wall/vis blocks for lots of things, good colour correction and optimisation. And at least they have to deal with "only" a single huge landscape tile (with subtiles streamed in for sure). The world in AC:oddysey is about 16x16km big/small. It feels really huge but isn't. It's basically only two heighmap-size tiles (8x8 1km streamed tiles) in TSW. And that is also a reason why it runs better and looks better. Clearly, the things are way more complicated but i guess that would go too far into details here (and i have work to do). If you want to know how such games are done, watch and read all the stuff about it you can find on the net. There is lots of it.


    Because it is simply not possible with actual casual hardware. In all those other games you move relatively slowly through the world, even if it looks fast, it's really slow. In a train sim, and yes even in a car game with real scale maps, you move way faster through the game world and loading needs time, especially with slow hardware. That definitely gives stuttering, even with nearly empty tiles. T o get rid of that such a game would need to get rid of tile streaming and went over to pure asset streaming. But that is not possible yet because of limited memory of consoles and even PCs. Again, a quite complex thing with lots of different problems you need to consider. I would state that it needs another 10 years to maybe get a more fluid and way more detailed simulation game like a TS is. Actual hardware limits it a lot.
     
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  7. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that exhaustive explanation! :)

    The BR 232? Oh, please, pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease ...........;)
     
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  8. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    This is inhuman we have to wait so long. Maik, I am begging You :)
     
  9. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    No sorry. There is quite some work going on with the 232 already for sure, but still 3d art only. The first built 3d model of it was not good, so we build it again to get a good quality thing to present. You know, it's a Ludmilla, and a Ludi needs her correct face, a complicated shape to recreate. Actual project is still the BR420 but even there, lots of things to do already. Whoever thought it is easy to build something for TSW should think about it again :) And to the people who think that 10 new possible 3pp dev studios (no idea from where they could come from .. growing on trees?) will deliver 10 new high quality DLCs ... nope!.
     
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  10. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Perfectly understood (still, very schade!) ;)

    I´ve got Catia and SolidWorks on the job. I know that 3D modeling is a hell of a work. And yes, the Ludi deserves all possible attention (AND sound, ah, the sound!)
     
  11. Tom19721997

    Tom19721997 Member

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    Whenever your stuff does get released im looking forward to it especially the 420 on munchen Augsburg and diesel big loco like 232
     
  12. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like Simrail got the data from the Insitute of Metrology and Water Management the Polish republic equivalent of Met Office (website is only in the Polish Language) to make it happen and took it from WMO world metrological organization. For DTG if they want to get Dynamic weather linked to a Server they should use UK Met Office data for the UK routes US Routes WMO NOAA Weather.gov WMO Member Germany Deutscher Wetterdienst the German Weather Agency then click on the Bundesland that means Sachesen for RT DCZ Riesa-Dresden Bayern SFS Hannover Wurzburg Main Spessart Bahn Munchen Augsburg Nordrhein Westfalen RRO RSN HRR SKA. That way Dynamic weather is improved and link to real-time weather which is what Sim rail would have likely done since the Commerical version is Sim Kol used by the national railway PKP
     
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  13. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    You forgot to list the safety systems of the UK Met Office...
     
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  14. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about the met office but the Polish water management companies in a few cities use clams as a safety system. Actual clams. I hope SimRail can include this somehow.
     
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  15. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "clammy" safety systems to be quite common. Nie tylko w Polsce :)
     
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  16. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    O hooj wam chodzi z tymi małżami? :)

    What would they be used for on the railroad? Cleanliness control in toilets?
     
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  17. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Like the guys calling for multiplayer, it's not up to me to determine how it's utilised. I have every faith that the developers of SimRail 2021 - sorry, 22, or possibly 23 - can manage this smoothly and amaze us all however.
     
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  18. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    Honestly SimRail 2021 was about to be yet another cheap simulation for masses to play trains, but they realised that there were 2 strong and huge communities for train simulations in Poland: Maszyna (EU07.pl) and Train Driver 2 (https://td2.info.pl/) - both freeware, offering unprecedented physics, gameplay and real operations. Maszyna is aging, but Train Driver 2 is about multiplayer operations between station dispatchers and drivers, live environment and is just connecting online sceneries together, player may ask for suitable timetable from dispatcher for local, local rapid, rapid, express, freight, moving rolling stock etc, with coupling, real procedures and strong discipline.
    If you are able to set manoeuvring lights, do cold start on a Polish old train (En57, EN71, EU07, EP08, SM42 etc..) you could give it a try, great fun and well made sceneries. All for free.

    So relating to above, SimRail could be a game or in-depth simulation needed for the modern times (PC wise) merging great aspects of both sims mentioned above, to the point that they expanded the team and merged with Devs from both to deliver the best of 2, yet with modern approach, dispatcher posts and stations, real operations (a bit simplified tho), 24h real operations with advanced AI. Now as they will hit Polish market and deliver with great demanding community up there, when they would hit German and UK market with a route of 500km or 300 miles or giving full operational route like ECML or WCML, German Karlsruhe-Dresden (example), with real playable dispatcher posts, real operations with real timetable with all pax and freight, different rolling stocks and ops, station announcements, voice comms with dispatchers, moderators surveillance preventing trolling, making it looks real - it will be the end of milking era for some ....
    Not mentioning open SDK for new routes, rolling stocks and it can be finally a real successor of MSTS in term of content in the coming years.
     
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  19. Dominik Tuchowicz

    Dominik Tuchowicz Member

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    I am playing as dispatcher and train driver in Train Driver 2.
    A steep learning curve with dedicated team that can assist from scratch, complaint system with real rail moderators on free time.
    Can be boring or extremely demanding at times. Always a lot of fun. For free.

    Now a 24h operations, take over AI train, communicate with AI or real dispatchers, "I will give you entry to the side platform, there is an express to fly through", "no entry displayed on semaphore for now, standby 2 minutes for free trail", "you have exit signal, clear to proceed" , "I gave you clear to proceed, why you waiting? - we've got technical issues with train (fault simulation) - ok, advise when sorted" etc ....

    Now with a set like that, there will be a plethora or different situations, possible delays, issues and stuff that makes same run different situations, unlike other sims. ZUSI3 is by far outdated for 2022, while it was the best as for it's age. Run8 is very expensive.
    If TD2 delivered, SimRail has to deliver even more as a commercial one.
     
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  20. Rafael320

    Rafael320 Member

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    Hello, new video from Simrail :)
     
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  21. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Very nice, sounds seem impressive, especially the volume increase when the door and window were opened. Take note DtG.
     
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  22. countcussy

    countcussy Well-Known Member

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    Most trains do that in TSW. At least on the routes I have.
     
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  23. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Yeh a decent number do it in TSC lol, people are getting silly with this still hypothetical product.
     
  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It does look good and has some nicely implemented sounds. I will certainly be interested to see how it develops.
     
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  25. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

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  26. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Nice. I hope it lives up to our expectations. Cannot wait to sit at the wheel of the EU07. Best AC loco in the world!
     
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  27. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I must admit watching the latest promo clip on Steam, this is starting to look enticing. So long as it's not a silly price >£50 like Zusi 3 or Trainz 22 I can see myself being tempted.
     
  28. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You'll mean a class 83 WCML locomotive license produced in Poland.
     
  29. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Zusi 3 is a realistic simulator that allows you to run on multiple routes and drive multiple trains like real drivers would in real life. And updates are free and give you lots of content, so it is justified to pay that much. There is no dlc and it is definitely cheaper than the actual training at the training centers lol.

    Trainz on the other hand has its issues and even though there is a lot of trains and content you can use, it has its own issues lol. Subscription based service, etc.

    Given how large simrail is with the 500km route, multiplayer and stuff, it will probably be expensive.
     
  30. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    No, that was the 06.
     
  31. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Got them mixed up with each other because both EU07 & 06 use the class 83 electrical system. You told me this in an earlier post
     
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  32. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Spent hours on Zusi 2 back in the day but what puts me off Zusi 3 apart from the price is no save game.

    Got a feeling Simrail won't be that expensive. Going to budget £40 for it but reckon it might come in cheaper. The demo version is now back available on Steam so I downloaded last night, will give it a try later on.
     
  33. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    There are other 3D Train Sims (an SimRail might be another one) that show how badly optimized TSW2/3 is.
    Comparing MSFS to TSW is like comparing an new Audi A8 to a old Lada. Night and day difference in graphic quality and performance.
     
  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Mixed feelings after trying the demos, which are very short. One with an EMU and the other a freight run with a Traxx. Couldn't find any others.

    It does look a bit too clean and shiny, hopefully this will be addressed in the final version. Track on the freight line seemed a bit Railroad Tycoonish to me. Controls, well I guess we got used to TSC and TSW, for all we dislike the HUD's at least information like throttle or brake position is shown without hovering the mouse over the lever or switch.

    Sounds are very good though, Traxx better than its TSW equivalent.

    Will still probably buy if the price is right, but it doesn't look as polished as TSW or even TSC the catenary very clunky. Downside of using Unity, I guess.
     
  35. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    It is more of an early preview that does not have all the upgrades they've made for the main release. The recent news articles and screenshots are what you need to look at. And many stuff are being fixed and improved.
     
  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes I thought that running the prologue version. Well at least it's back available now to try.
     
  37. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The Demo for SimRail is years old at this point. Wait for the final product to judge.
     
  38. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree. I was still having fun with it though. The main vibe that comes over is these guys are in it for love of the subject matter and not just the money, whereas DTG... now just a DLC factory and not always a particularly good one either.
     
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  39. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Looks like I was too late to get on the initial Early Access, but have registered my interest. Not sure how many testers they were recruiting but obviously quite an exciting prospect for a number of people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022
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  40. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Welcome in da club :)
     
  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I will be eagerly waiting for an email to drop in my Inbox at some point. Shame it wasn't a paid open early access really.
     
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  42. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Im so hyped for SimRail :)
     
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  43. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Yay! I got my invite for play testing, not via email though - it was showing on the Simrail Steam store page. Exciting!!
     
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  44. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    Yeah me 2 but I am currently not at home oh my train!
     
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  45. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    You won't be able to install it yet, anyway: "missing app configuration". I tried installing it yesterday and today. I guess they'll add it on 7 December when the tests start.
     
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  46. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    i also recieved the invitation for Simrail.
    Let´s see tomorrow :D
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I will have to check Steam and my email later. Busy with real life at the moment.

    Still no word on price, though.
     
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  48. Averrnor

    Averrnor Member

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    Got mine too. See you in game ;)
     
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Same here, app configuration unavailable so guess it's a case of keep trying.
     
  50. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    Tests will start tomorrow at 8 p.m. CET / 7 p.m. GMT according to SimRail Facebook group. There was this screenshot included:
    318229906_639642314606389_6848524454715595496_n.jpg
     
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