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Simulator Or Game...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Trooper117, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Have we come to a conclusion yet?
    The 'realism' fans say simulator.
    Others think it's a game.
    Railway fanatics foam at the mouth when 'game' is mentioned. :mad:

    Where do you stand?
     
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  2. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Whatever it is, it's something I enjoy playing.
     
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  3. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Best answer I have seen was someone called it a "Simcade" game. Sums it up reasonably well.
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s both. Conversation over, close the thread!
     
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  5. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I think it’s a game that does a great job at simulation. DTG themselves refer to it as a game, not a simulator.
     
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  6. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Um, it's not called Train Game World. It's got Sim right in the title.

    "It's both" is a good answer.
     
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  7. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    A simulator is a game, so I don't really see what there is to talk about? I mean how realistic it is is up for debate, but regardless, it's trying to simulate train driving, so it's a simulator. But it's made for entertainment purposes (and not for railway training), so it's a game as well.
     
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  8. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    If you watch the interview Matt does with Geoff, he clearly calls it a game.
     
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  9. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Real-life simulators used to certify train drivers are not games.
     
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  10. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    In another interview, Matt says "Simulation is a really important genre that was one of the most popular a long time ago. Since then, games have diversified into many different genres, but we are definitely seeing a big resurgence in the popularity of simulation products."

    It's a simulation game. If you want to take that to mean it's a game, not a simulator, feel free to run with it, but I suspect Matt would say it's not one thing to the exclusion of the other.
     
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  11. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Active Member

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    I don't care if it's called game or simulator, TSW is a passion.. my passion! :love:
     
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  12. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    It's never been a simulator, if it was then stupid collectables wouldn't be included. It's stuck in between game and sim not really knowing what it actually is while trying to appeal to both at the same times.
     
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  13. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Digging through the DTG mailbag, we came across this letter...

    Dear Dovetail Games,

    Re TSW2.

    Whilst driving a train on your so-called simulator, I found myself having some fun. It has come to my attention that this was an intended result of the way you have developed the software. I disapprove of this wholeheartedly because if I wanted to have fun I would have done a jigsaw puzzle or watched my You’ve Been Framed VHS box set, and not embarked on the serious task of driving a virtual Class 20 locomotive. I think you have created what I believe the youngsters call a video game. This will simply not do, and you have lost one customer forever.

    Yours sincerely,
    Edmund Braithwaite, Doncaster
     
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  14. Cramnor

    Cramnor Active Member

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    I think DTGs aspiration is for it to be a simulator, but with stuff like collectibles, annoying sounds aka "you have stopped at the right spot, congratulations" and that speed limits and signals are sometimes not correct and not even close to the real thing, I would say the reality is more a game than a simulation. A good looking one, for sure, and a decent basis to actually build a proper simulation :)
     
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  15. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    For me, the game is believable. Trains in TSW simulate/imitate real trains really good :)
    yyy so I don't know :(
     
  16. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    Regarding that debate, whether or not it's a game simulation... I've always thought Simulation being a Game genre. in the end of the day it still a game.
     
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  17. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Active Member

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    So that person decided not to give DTG any money because TSW2 isn't a professional simulator?

    They pitch it as a simulation game, just like basically every other program on Steam with the word "Sim", "Simulator" or "Simulation" in the title. If they pitched it as a simulator, that means it's professional kit to train people on, which TSW absolutely is not.

    I think collectibles were included because it's an open-world game and it's basically an unwritten law when developing an open-world game.
     
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  18. diamondderp

    diamondderp Active Member

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    It is a full simulator when it has a full route, all trains that drives on the route and no non-realistic stuff like: creating own livery in my opinion.


    I think its a mix of a game and simulation.
     
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  19. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I think collectables were included because it's an open-world game that has a donkey in it, and collectables help you feel that you're accomplishing something while you're running around for hours trying to find the donkey.
     
  20. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Open world game, really..? I've never even thought it was that and still don't. They restrict you to the track area and platforms, what's open world about that?
     
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  21. Crosstie

    Crosstie Active Member

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    At its core it's a simulator and that's how I approach it. By introducing superfluous amusements like collectables and a decorating notion it becomes a game for some. Which is fine as long as I can ignore those elements.
     
  22. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Active Member

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    Let's meet in the middle, it is a gamulator. Isn't it?
     
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    So just happy birthgame \o/
     
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  24. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Decorating notion? A nice throw rug to spruce up your cab? Maybe some drapes for the windows?

    Train Decorator Sim World. "We don't know what genre it is, anymore."
     
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  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Undecided. I don’t think DTG even know what it really is. Sometimes its referred to as a simulator, sometimes it’s referred to as a video game.
     
  26. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Active Member

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    Coool, i didn't expect anyone to remember. Thank you very much. :D
     
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  27. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is a place in this forum that knows such things. 100 years! :)
     
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  28. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    It is both. It is a game of the simulation genre. It is sold as an entertainment SW (a game) and we play it for enjoyment, not for gaining proficiency in a profession.

    Every sim we play, be it train, racing, or flying sim is in the end a game.
     
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  29. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Well-Known Member

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    Hello.
    Remove the hud and put the PZB and other AWS and it's a sim.
    Leave all the helpers and it's an arcade.
    In short, a very good sim-arcade for everyone.
     
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  30. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    It’s a sim with limitations due to hardware.
    It can also be fun.

    Not just for hairy chested obsessives with little social life.
     
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  31. Mich

    Mich Member

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    If Trainz, MSTS, and older TS Classic content is considered a sim than TSW is very clearly a sim. I'd argue that it's miles better than old Kuju content as there tends to be more functionality, mainly start up procedures and safety systems. A casual person would be fine with a Kuju SD40-2, only a simmer would really care about the features the improved one in TSW has. Just because there's some TS Classic content that is more realistic doesn't automatically demote TSW to a game. Personally I prefer TS Classic considerably due to the great scope it has, however I still think the better routes in TSW are good simulations.
     
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  32. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Active Member

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    Yes, really. The definition of an open world game is one where you can explore and move around the game world, interacting with it, completing objects freely, which you can do in TSW.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  33. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    The answer in this case is very simple. If TSW isn't a simulator, then Train Simulator isn't either. And perhaps Zusi3, in some respects, is the closest to us. But it really offers too little when compared to the other two.
     
  34. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Er, unfortunately you can't...
    Open world video games are a type of video game where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.
    The term "Open world" and "free-roaming" suggest non linear gameplay with the absence of artificial barriers, in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs.
     
  35. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    He never gave DTG any money because I made him up. Basically there isn’t a single person on these forums who has the right to say where the line between simulator and game is drawn. My fictitious ex-customer had drawn the line at the point where it becomes fun and that’s where some people see the line. In reality there is no line. There may be a gradual fade between the two, whereby as elements of one or the other are removed it becomes closer to the opposite side, but as it stands TSW is much nearer to the simulator side than it is to the game side. It’s a simulator with a few game-like features.

    As I said earlier, it’s both. If it doesn’t quite meet a player’s expectation of what a simulator is then that says more about the person than it does about TSW. Indeed they wouldn’t even see themselves as a player, probably having a self image of themselves being anything other than someone playing on a computer, despite that being exactly what they are doing. Playing with a big train set. That’s what we are all doing. Not a single person here is doing anything else, either with a DTG product or any other publicly available train simulator.
     
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  36. michael hooley

    michael hooley Active Member

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    It is whatever you want it to be!, simple as that.
     
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  37. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Good answer Michael!
     
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  38. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    If only this would allow multiple likes I would score this post a 10.
     
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  39. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Cheers. I would only accept one like per person. If ten people like it then I will be very surprised. I also wonder how many downvotes it would get if that was still a thing!
     
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  40. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Calling it a Sim and not a game is a classic example of gatekeeping by those who want to feel superior. Nothing more than that.

    TS20xx, TSW, ETS2, MSFS, X-Plane 11, they're all computer games. The genre of computer games is simulator. This is not, never has been, and never will be a differentiation between "sim" vs. "game" in this sense. They are all consumer level products designed to balance giving you the general experience of doing X activity, while also keeping fun and gameplay loops in mind where possible, as well as the limitations of the normal home PC setup. Even TS20xx, which is home to a lot of the folks slinging mud in this pointless debate has career scenarios that give you points and unlock achievements.

    You want a sim vs. game debate? Fine. All of those GAMES I just listed, are just that, GAMES. And Sims are actual industry training simulators. That's the differentiation between game and sim. If you want to use a "serious sim", then go book time at Lockheed Martin or go enroll in CSX training to become an engineer. Then you'll get your sim time. Any attempt by anyone in any of those communities to declare their game a "sim" and other games a "game" is nothing more than that person wanting to feel smarter/better/more superior for liking what they think is a better product. Period. End of story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely true. Some so-called simulators use some of the games you mentioned. Neither Lockheed nor CSX will guarantee you overloads of 10g. Real pilots complain about the so-called real simulators sometimes for this very reason - for them, it's still just games. Something may be more or less realistic. The training is mainly about maintenance activities and procedures. The physics model is less important. That's what real training is for. On real planes, real trains. It is arguable how close TSW is to simulation. I know people "in the industry" who say they have been trained on less reliable simulators. Who likes what :)
    PS For me? It's just a good train game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  42. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    My overall point was that trying to split up TS as a sim, and TSW as a game is simply gatekeeping. Yes, I'm aware that some pilots like to play X-Plane and use it for light training, etc.
     
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  43. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Rather, only some elements can be simulated. Professional simulators certainly better simulate the essential ones :)

    PS For most people it would be boring anyway - and in that case, I paste this:



    eheheh :) And before someone goes by train, IRL?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  44. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Haha. I always imagine when these debates come up in flight simulator forums where X-Plane junkies try and crap on the new MSFS, some dude sitting at a computer desk and on an IKEA office chair, flying a 474 with a little plastic Thurstmaster joystick and 27 inch Dell monitor angrily yelling "IT'S A SIM, NOT A GAME!" Even more so with TS (which I play more than TSW). You're going to criticize TSW for being a game and TS being a sim...as you earn your career points and drive your train with the a, d, ;, and ' keys. If you are controlling a fake 20 ton machine from your laptop with a keyboard...you're playing a game.
     
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  45. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    :) :) :)
    For me it is like this: I love trains. I love complex games. Are these complex difficult? For me, the difficult ones require dexterity. The complex ones are interesting. I like games for nerds!
     
  46. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    A true simulator is used for driver training and has a much higher cost than TSW. This is a game, a fairly realistic (debatable) one but is not something a real driver can train with.

    And it's not just about how realistic the physics are, also we are missing all the documentation which a real driver would have (I.e. Ebula for germany) as I said, the closest we got to a real simulator are the in--depth Flight Sims add-ons (whether they are for FSX, P3D or Xplane) since you can access almost all the documentation a real pilot can access and interact with the plane like a real pilot would, and those add ons could actually be used for real training (although obviously not from a physics stand point) but mainly man-machine interaction. All of those elements are lacking in general in the rail sim market and there is nothing we can do about it, except creating ourselves tons and tons of original documentation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  47. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    All games are simulation in there own right, They all simulate an experience or rules of the world, be it accurately or not depending on the gameplay one wants to achieve.
    The constant argument of TSW been a sim or not is pointless, It simulates a variety of aspects of its gameplay to achieve a desired result in look and feel to portray an experience. Just like any game even simple platformers simulated inertia, gravity and friction to achieve there results. In the terms of lets say platformers, those values may be far from realistic but there is still simulation occurring.

    There is no debate here if you simply understand that a Simulator is used for Instruction/ training and a games often employ simulation to achieve a degree of authenticity and or realism for entertainment purpose. TS, TSW, TSW2 , Flight sim.... guess what ? … there all games.

    Not one of these simulates every single system on board there respective vehicle, instead they choose what they do and don't simulate in an effort to provided an experience that is a balance of approachable , enjoyable and authentic.
     
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  48. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    About this game blurb for TSW 2020: "Train Sim World is an immersive first-person simulator perfect for everyone," and TSW 2: "The evolution of train simulation!"

    It's a game that considers itself a simulator (rather than a simulator that considers itself a game -- that sounds weird and unnatural).
     
  49. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Survival horror it is then.. given some bugs and general shoddy textures in the game it feels like a horror show.
     
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  50. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Whatever TSW is, I think it's awesome piece of software, that's somewhere in the middle between 'game' and 'simulator'. It's obviously not as arcadish as that silly and wonky Train Mechanic Simulator I once played. And it's also considerable easier to get into than that overly technical OMSI2 with it's learning curve as steep as a canyon.

    So I think I'm pretty happy that TSW is not purely a game, and neither purely a simulator.
     
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