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So Whats The Point Of The Preserved Collection?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Jannerdunk, Jun 12, 2020.

  1. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Active Member

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    So if we can't use our existing locos on the new routes that will be developed for TSW2 and if I understood correctly, none of the new features such as the scenario editor will work with the existing routes, what is the point of having them imported into TSW2? I

    Is this just more smoke and mirrors on DTG's part to cover up their complete abandonment of TSW 2020?

    If DTG think I am going to pay for new versions of the same loco's then they can think again.

    Whilst it was good to see some honest answers in the recent Dev stream, I am sorry to say, that having watched it, I now less likely to buy the game
     
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  2. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Essentially so you won't need to have TSW2020 and TSW2 installed simultaneously with a double up of disk usage.
     
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  3. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Active Member

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    Disk space is by far the cheapest computing resource. The optimistic part of me wonders if there might be gradual migration of some content from one game to the other in the same way Sand Patch is being updated.
     
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  4. londondude89

    londondude89 New Member

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    I feel exactly the same way.

    I was absolutely delighted when I found out my Class 33 had a scenario on another route. TSW has always felt very restricting in comparison with TS2020, but this opened things up a bit and convinced me to go and buy more DLC.

    I get that the game engine will need updating every once in a while and that this may not be free because of how Unreal Engine is licenced.
    I get that DTG (or indeed, third party developers) aren't going to remodel, retexture or otherwise remaster all the available DLC every time there's a new update, but if you've gone through the effort of getting them to work in game, I don't get why they can't be used in the scenario editor - even if they don't look or perform as well as the newer stuff.

    If this is what's going to happen every time there's an update, it's going to make me a lot pickier with what DLC I decide to buy in future
     
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  5. doc_woods

    doc_woods Active Member

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    It's an interesting question: right now it seems like the "preserved collection" has just generated a lot of work to make it function at all. It's hard to see who it benefits since the existing owners can still play this stuff in TSW2020. I guess it does allow people who bought TSW2 but not TSW2020 to buy older DLC, but that's got to be a marginal audience.

    You have to imagine there's an ambition to do a bit more with the old stuff, possibly on a case-by-case basic as it becomes relevant to new products. It looks like current policy is to try very hard not to promise things that may not be delivered so they're understandably reluctant to say too much.
     
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  6. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    My take on this whole thing is: making TSW stuff work in TSW2 required zero or minimal effort and they could've easily put the new features into the old DLCs if they took the time, but they just didn't bother. Instead they made up this thing called "preserved collection" that literally means nothing, but at least makes it sounds like it took effort and they did something.

    The reason I'm saying it is because basically there are two ways this could have happened: if TSW2 is really that different then the old DLCs would've required a big overhaul to work. If they required an overhaul then I highly doubt they wouldn've implemented the new features into them. Or they just copy and pasted the routes into TSW2 and 99% of content worked straight away, with barely any problems, like the car models on signals bug they mentioned on the stream. Because the fact that they work in TSW2 without any real changes means that well... they work without any real changes. So this whole "preserved collection" thing is just empty words.

    Anyway I may be just skeptic, but that's how I feel about this whole thing. So yes, as you said, I think it's just smoke and mirrors.
     
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  7. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    I strongly hope for evolution of Preserved Collection!
    That required effort for remastering of content is stumbling-block.
    If they put all manpower to rework TSW2020 content to the same standard they may spent 9-18 months with nothing new and community will be dissapointed.
    If they throw Preserved Collection over board completly, community will be dissapointed.
    If production of new content will go on normaly and rework will go slowly on background it take 2-4 years and tell that MSB will be remastered in january 2023 now is out of the bowl.

    Straightforward statement wasn't written:
    Preserved Collection will never be remastered!
    Only statment that it will be available as preserved in day of release, without speculations for future happening.

    There was many question about CSX-HH for consoles and they don't say NEVER, they say NOT NOW, and such time has come.
     
  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    This is a really important issue. At some point, TSW2 routes are going to require using some trains that have appeared in TSW previously. They are going to have to be included in the routes because nobody is going to want to buy loco DLC of trains that have previously been seen in TSW or that they have bought already for TSW. There may even come a time when a loco that was a paid loco DLC in TSW might be needed to be included as the main train in TSW2.

    I’d like to know how this is going to be handled by DTG in the future. This is not going to be the same as buying the same loco in TSW as in TS, as they are distinctly different games, but having to pay for things again for TSW2 is going to sting bad and will not be well received. This is an issue that will come up.

    There is also the likely occurrence of a new route in TSW2 being absolutely perfect for one or more of the locos people have bought as DLC in TSW and there being a situation where there is possibly no chance of ever having that loco in the route due to DTG not wanting to get themselves into the above situation, or previous paid DLC appearing as standard in new routes. This could become a big issue. I’m thinking mainly of the German locos but also with BR blue trains.

    There was the Class 08 that came as part of the Heavy Freight DLC for NTP as well as being included in TVL in TSW. Imagine that kind of double purchase becoming commonplace and how players will feel about it.

    DTG Protagonist possibly a question for clarification in a forthcoming stream?
     
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  9. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it, whatever is in my "Preserved Collection" will not be able to run on any of the new TSW 2 routes.

    So what happens when a new route is released that can run the Class 33, the Class 52 or any of the other DLC locos I already own? Am I being asked to buy them again?

    If they are totally brand new, from the ground up locos, maybe that's fair enough.

    However, I think we all know that any of the existing rolling stock that is ported across for use in TSW 2 will be revamped TSW2020 rolling stock. Why would they bother to build a brand new model of a previously released one, when with a few minor tweaks it will be compatible.
     
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  10. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I genuinely find this topic difficult to discuss, in the absence of key information... like what does "preserved" actually mean? I think I have an idea of what is happening, but I can't be sure. And it gets even more difficult, because as soon as you settle on a concept, you then have to compare it to what DTG intend to do in the future (which we don't know), and what DTG will actually do (which they don't even know...).

    My belief is that:

    - actually, nothing much is actually changing...... (see section below);
    - "preserved" means "only compliant with TSW features" (and the UE4 version that TSW is built on);
    - "preserved" rolling stock will not be used in TSW 2, they will only run on TSW routes; and,
    - TSW 2 will include a copy of TSW, so that you can run TSW compliant trains on TSW compliant routes.

    I think that the idea of "preserved" is merely to attach a marketing label to those bits of rolling stock that were designed to run on (and be sold for/with) pre-2021 TSW routes. It is to answer the question "Why am I being sold another Class 66, another Talent, another DB BR 155, another GP-40..." etc...

    Actually, nothing much is actually changing......

    Here is a question..... How does what is about to happen differ from what has happened in the last three years with TSW, and the last ten years with TS1....? And my suspicion is that it doesn't differ that much at all. So....What has happened in the past...?

    - DTG's two Offices (and occasionally a third party) have designed individual routes;
    - rolling stock has been designed and sold to work with the routes;
    - the same rolling stock has been sold again to work with later routes; and
    - the same rolling stock has been sold again with various liveries or as slightly different versions...

    TSW 2 draws a line under the portability of TSW rolling stock, so that the same rolling stock can be sold again with a slightly different label in TSW 2. Here's a few versions of the Class 66 (sold as locos, not livery add-ons....):

    - TS1 Freightliner 66
    - TS1 Powerhaul Class 66 v.2
    - TS1 EWS Class 66 (with Settle to Carlisle)
    - TS1 EWS Class 66 (with York to Peterboro)
    - TS1 EWS Class 66 v.2
    - TS1 BR 266
    - TS1 DRS Class 66 (with WCML Trent)
    - TSW Class 66 (with GWE)
    - TSW Class 66 (with ECW)

    There might be more Class 66s lurking on other routes, or with different liveries or enhancement packs, etc.....


    So - I am expecting that there will be a new British route in TSW 2.... which will come with another "new" Class 66.... Just a hunch.... ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  11. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, however unless I'm mistaken, which I often am, all or most of those Class 66's you have listed are available to use in the TS1 quick drive. Even the ones from the older versions. In fact yesterday, I picked up Settle to Carlisle, which is listed as a Railworks 3 DLC and that still works in TS2020.
     
  12. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Yep - but if you want to run scenarios.... then you often need a very specific Class 66... so you have to buy all of them, in order to use/enjoy all of the scenarios.... (in TS1).... And in some cases (with other locos), you need specific liveries or sound packages... etc...

    But yes, of course, with TS1 you get Quick Drive... and the ability to make your own scenarios, with any individual Class 66.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  13. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Which to me, is what's disappointing about the "new" scenario editor and preserved collection
     
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  14. jursly

    jursly Member

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    we must inform DTG that we want to use preserved collection as a community on the new routens and scenario editor and livery editor

    and that the trains have to update so that with the German trains LZB work on the
    DB BR 185,182,146,425, MRCE BR 185.5

    and on all trains which have a destination display that do not work now also work on the
    DB BR 143, DB BR 1442, BR Class 166, M7
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  15. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, good luck with that!
     
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  16. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Best of luck DTG has already committed to abandoning any further work with the existing content after Aug 6.
     
  17. jursly

    jursly Member

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  18. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I'm really hoping that in time they may actually update our 'preserved collection' (I'm starting to dislike that term) to allow it to function in all the features of TSW2... if that was assured I would buy the 'new game' at launch!
     
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  19. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I myself am not happy with that term Preserved Content either, but I am also hoping that between now and Aug 6 that fix as my bugs as possible.
     
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  20. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    How about...... Pickled....? ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
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  21. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Well, I've got a bottle of Jam Shed... I might be going down that route tonight!
     
  22. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Pickled could another term to use
     
  23. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The Embalmed Collection
     
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  24. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    That means it will end up in a museum.... ''step right this way to see the mummified remains of Train Sim World. The grand game of trains that slipped into oblivion''
     
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  25. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    How about...... Pasteurised....? Because.... wait for it.......

    .... with TSW2...... they are trying to..... pull the wool over your.... I mean.... pull the wool......Past Your Eyes.....? ;-)

    More seriously, if the DLC in the "Collection" were to be Pasteurised, then it would be free from bugs and it would have a longer shelf-life.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  26. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    One thing that Matt said in the Q&A stream that worries me a little was that they are going to be very clear about what is in the preserved collection. It makes me think there may be current TSW DLC that isn't in the preserved collection and therefore won't be available in TSW2. I could just be concerned about nothing and / or taking what he said out of context (hopefully) but I guess we'll find out in the coming weeks.
     
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  27. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Active Member

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    I think they explained later that they don’t have time to get everything converted right when the new game launches, but eventually everything will be available. So they will publish a list of what will be “preserved” on launch day and what is still on their to-do list.
     
  28. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    Seems, on the one hand, like I've "gotten into" TSW at a very controversial time. On the other hand, it seems that a certain amount of controversy has been bubbling under the surface for years... going back nearly a decade. Because of that, I have placed my acquisition of any DLC in suspended animation for the foreseeable future.
     
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  29. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I must have missed that bit

    Good idea for now. Watch this space.
     
  30. mike370

    mike370 Member

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    Hi PP. Not in anyway wishing to be pedantic. More trying to be helpful, and bit by bit hopefully clear up a few misunderstandings about TS1. Perhaps doing so also begins to make more sense why many long-term PC TS players are so very frustrated by the way TSW has so far evolved. They were lead to believe TSW would do much of what TS1 does, but just better.

    The above statement quoted is not quite true. And those relatively new to the classic TS20xx series might not be aware the way it all reallly works. Veteran players regularly see this particular point of confusion.

    Yes it's true that to run scenarios in all their full glory, it certainly helps for ease & speed to have the very specific loco(s) the scenario author intended (in this case the Class 66 as example) - since the scenario xml file points to a particular drive path for each used piece of stock [both a great strength & weakness of such a design format in TS1]. It isn't though the case you have to have them/buy them all in order to use the scenarios.

    In the same way the scenario's author can easily select their preferred loco (+ rolling stock) assets for use in their scenario, it's also possible to easily swap (often referred to by the community as 'swapping-out' or 'switching-out') the author's selected model(s) for an alternative of your choice. i.e. whatever version of the model you may have in your collection, or if no Class 66 you could simply swap for any suitable similar freight hauling loco you do own. This can be done quite simply using the game's in-built scenario editor, or even more easily using the 3rd party app (which is freeware) 'RW_Tools' now superceeded by 'TS_Tools'. It's very quick & easy to do. In fact, not only might you choose do so to use the scenario where you're missing the exact stock referenced - you might deliberately choose to use the default scenario as a template to quickly create your own new scenario with your complete own choice of alternative locos & rolling stock. Just as you might choose to use an existing route in TS1 as a quick convenient starting template for building a new route.

    This is another good example of one of the great flexibilities of the TS1 game design. I would though agree it's at times frustating the shear amount of duplication that RSC/DTG have generated over the years of some particular class locos (the Class 66 is a good example, but also applies to the likes of the Class 37, Class 43 HST, BR Class 101 DMU etc..). It has got unnecessarily messy, and confusing for all to keep track of the various versions of models.

    This is largely a consequence of poor forward planning by DTG, and/or unwillingness to patch and/or upgrade historic routes/locos/rolling-stock - or use a central common library [though it did start out this way early on in the game with the core Kuju assets, now known as the European & North American Community asset packs - but wasn't continued], rather than an inherent flaw in the game design. But for the world of PCs where hard drive disc space isn't a real concern, for the most part such asset duplication is more a minor irritation rather than a significant problem. I could see how that might be a problem should it have happened (or could perhaps happen in the future with the TSW game series) for consoles where the relatively small hard drives means storage space at a premium.

    But regardless the way the asset filing system designed, it does mean it's possible for 2nd & 3rd party developers to easily create & add content for the game. And also for players to easily utilise all manner of own locos, different liveries, other reskins of any particular stock. The AP version alone has 14 different liveries of the basic Class 66 model. In the game as a whole, in total there must be hundreds of variants of the loco, including all the special one-off livery productions, reskins of almost every subtle variation of the loco ever produced, plus most of the individual unique locos of the Class (individual numbers and name plates), weathered and 'new' versions of a great many of all of these various options. The permutations are almost endless. And this applies to a great many of the different loco Class models in the game. Which can make for incredibly realistic prototypical recreation of life like scenarios from all the various main rail eras.

    It's a shame then, when new players to the game, unfortunately believe they have to own the full listed set of DLC to run more imaginative and complicated (because of shear number of AI variety) scenarios. And are as a result (understandably) put off, & left feeling very frustrated.

    More often than not, you can make do quite nicely with what you have. It's a hard thing to attempt to succiently & clearly explain, but I hope this helps a little, and might just open up a few more doors for you & others to experiment with DLC you do own, rather than worrying unduly about stuff you don't have. And mistakingly believing you can't play most scenarios that are provided outside the formal payware DLC. Of course it does get a whole lot easier as over-time one's personal DLC collection gradually grows. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  31. ASRGT

    ASRGT Active Member

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    This also happens due to the fact that when you get a scenario from the workshop you wind up with a list of missing DLC required to run it.
    Its one thing I strongly believe DTG handled far better in TSW is the substitution and layered services model. A user with just the base DLC got a turn key product they could enjoy however if they also happen to own another DLC that added a layer they got a nice surprise without the game erroring that your missing content X or Y . The only issue I see with the layered and substitution system is its clearly allot of up keep for DTG and its a compounding problem the more compatible DLC is released.
     
  32. mike370

    mike370 Member

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    I appreciate that can certainly be frustrating for players. However, I'd suggest that's more a problem with the Steam Workshop (WS) and the incredibly poor tagging system that doesn't clearly highlight many of the required DLC in advance of the player downloading individual scenarios. Rather than it being a major flaw with the game itself. The WS started off relatively smoothly in its early days, but over the years has unfortunately become an absolute mess - a mega jumble of a huge amount of valuable content, that is hard to both to search & properly use. I think we can all agree on that, and that ideally the WS requires a major tidy-up & reorganisation for players to better utilise it, & to minimise the increasing number of system crashes players are now experiencing due to problematic WS downloads.

    Having said that the WS offers a tremendous number & amazing variety of interesting imaginative free scenarios & routes - giving wonderful extra playing material. Of course, this is completely missing for TSW. So whatever the flaws of the Steam WS for TS1, do you not still think the WS content is far better to have, than not having it? Of course substitution of stock (as I explained above) is still possible for WS scenarios when it comes to replacing any missing required assets.

    I honestly can't comment on the subsitution process utilised in TSW. Basically because there is so very little in the way of content you could possibly substitute. Where are the hundreds of different locco & rolling stock models & reskins that could be swapped to give a varied authentic scenario playing experience. I'd suggest it's very easy to substitute when you're only selecting from a tiny amount of alternative stock from tightly restricted & controlled DTG payware content only. i.e. no 3rd party or player created models. But if variety & authenticity doesn't appeal then I guess the TSW system that's implemented is suitably functioning.
     
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  33. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Am I happy with this preserved collection feature?
    absolutely not.
    Am I convinced by the new features announced so far?
    not really.
    Will I buy TSW2 on 6/8/20?
    No future plans.
     
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  34. ASRGT

    ASRGT Active Member

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    Its not that I have anything against WS content, its simply from an average end user perspective that buys the game and goes hey I might try some of these workshop scenarios and they should as there are some amazing ones, you can often wind up falling into the nightmare that is missing content, constant hangs, and crash to desktops thanks to a random WS subscription that for what ever reason failed to download correct. So while the content is great the experience is far from perfect.

    By the way just want to make it clear i don't feel that the layers/sub system replaces Workshop in anyway I am just pointing out that the user experience is less than stellar and that feeling of I need all the dlc to play this game often stems from workshop content and the dreaded failed to load assets dialog box :D Where as for example the layered services idea simply disables them if the end user dose not own them. It would be a nice bit of logic to add back into TS to be honest to allow scenarios to be authored to allow for a list of valid locos and substitutions.
     
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  35. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    You weren't pedantic at all..... Your post was brilliantly useful and extremely well judged. Thank You. :)
     
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  36. Bob12212

    Bob12212 Active Member

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    Yeah, I noticed that in one of the TSW 2 Q&A. Sam would ask Matt just to give a "yes" or "no" answer. No "maybe" or "possibly one day"
     
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  37. ASRGT

    ASRGT Active Member

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    Considering preserved collection gains nothing by running under TSW2 other than avoiding needing two games installed id have much rather them not bother with it and simple re focus those who are tied up working on it, onto more valuable features. I think most people after the initial shock have come to understand persevered collection is kind of a good will gesture at this point but adds nothing of real value as you could still just fire up TSW.
    Then again I could be total minority hear, but I simple don't see the value in spending development time on just preserved collection unless there are internal plans to use that work as a springboard to bring locos and routes up to full TSW2 spec in time.
     
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  38. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    That's not correct. Will still benefit from the updated engine (run smoother, overall graphics enhancements of UE, ...) and the new UI of course. I really doubt there will be 2 different UIs or engines implemented at the same time, one for preserved collection and one for actual TSW2 content.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  39. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    A few areas to clear up, just so you have the official word on the topic.

    You do not need to have TSW installed to use your Preserved Collection in TSW2. If you do have the original still installed you will have 2 instances of each Preserved add-on installed. The only advantage to be had here is that you can choose whether to play the add-on under the TSW or TSW 2 environment.

    Preserved routes and locos will have a modest difference in TSW 2, that being whatever impact the Unreal Engine has overall. Noticeable changes are unlikely, but might be there. Expect to have to squint to see anything noticeable if looking at identical footage from TSW and TSW 2 side by side.

    The reason that Preserved Collection exists is so that you don't lose the ability to use the routes and locos you've purchased if you decide to move to TSW 2. Sure, you could bounce between the two games to play the routes you like, but it's included to make that experience a little more convenient.
     
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  40. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't be any clearer or more thorough than this! Thanks!!
    [Of course, the "discussion" will continue will continue.]
     
  41. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    In a recent article, DTG announced they are pushing back the release date of TSW 2.
    https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/tsw2-update

    TSW 2 is now set to release on Aug 20. The reason for this being the original TSW routes are being slightly upgraded so they are compatible with the new TSW 2 content. This way, the "Preserved Collection" can be used in the Scenario Creator. For instance, you can run the LIRR M3 on the Bakeloo Line.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  42. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    wait tsw2 very longtime
     
  43. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Oh yes, such a long time... I'll probably be dead when it comes out on August 20th. :(
     
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  44. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Why? Are you off to play chicken on a busy motorway?
     
  45. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    why
     
  46. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    Somebody tell im...
     
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  47. HamioSamio098

    HamioSamio098 Member

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    On It!
    Psst... Psst... Guys, it was supposed to be a joke!
     
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