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South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that fences are effecting FPS to the extent that they aren’t there, HMA has 3000 signals, and even with the minimal ICE and S Bahn that are still more than the total of SEHS, that route runs fine.

    If we’re at point where fences are too much of a hit, then we as a fan base and DTG are in trouble with future routes.
     
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  2. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It happens every DLC release...there are quite a few people (esp here) who analyse every single screenshot and every frame of video searching for inaccuracies. For these people, their expectations are always going to be too high and no matter what DTG release it will never meet their expectations.

    There is nothing wrong with what Sam said...he is 100% correct.
     
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  3. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Oh I'm not on there.

    Personally, I think an apology for a route would only be necessary if the route
    a) released and
    b) was absolute pup, like WCML South for TS1 levels, which released and even Sam's reasonably powerful computer was struggling with it (frame rate wise) - to the point I think he even admitted in the stream he couldn't defend it (I haven't watched the stream because I missed it and it's apparently very painful to watch, so I'm just going off what others said). And that's not even mentioning it was only a vague representation of the line.
     
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  4. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    lol I am always quite happy with what DTG delivers and looking at the community, so are many others. This time it's different. Was there such an uproar when HMA was released, for example?
     
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  5. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    There always will be, and tbh I missed the fence when I first saw the trailer, now I can't unsee it and its absence just simply makes the route look unfinished - this is literally the first time I've even vaguely cared about the existence of a fence.
     
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  6. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry. I was lumping all people who have brought up the issue in with the serial complainers. I apologise. I do wish they would tell us as this is what I’ve been saying about the cab sounds because Matt did tell us about that issue.

    They could quite easily have just run out of dev time and that’s what got left out from a judgement call on what would be least missed by the most people. It does happen.
     
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  7. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Sam just acknowledged all of our feedback on the Steam stream and said they will address them in the next preview stream for the route.
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I hope I'm not one of the "serial complainers" that sounds awful!

    Jokes apart yes it's very possible, at the end I expected the same level of detail as early LGV and I got that, as I said, the issues that were brought up will not stop me from enjoying the route. Even the trees and ballast on LGV I have to admit, after a bit I stopped caring about them... so I would guess it will be the same for similar "issues" here.

    Also LGV was on track to be the best seller route tied with HMA from day one with similar "issues" as this route, so I guess they really don't matter to a huge part of the people that buy the routes.

    Another thing is that LGV got an update some weeks ago where they added a lot of details* so it might be possible for something similar to happen to this route, but as usual, I'm not holding my breath

    *correction - they didn't add details they fixed a LOD issue which was affecting the grass on the route, which, in my opinion, improved LGV a lot
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I would be careful when saying HMA runs fine. That may be the case for some users but not for all. If layers are anticipated for SEHS then there may well be savings that need to be made as standard above what was done in HMA. Console users may never get the layers on HMA because of performance. It may not be that with the fences but working level crossings have been added and that has to use up some resources somewhere and HMA isn’t yet a route that can be used as an example of what is capable on all platforms. If the Javelin uses a lot more resources than the HMA trains then savings need to be made for that as well. There are a lot of variables to consider.
     
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  10. NekoNina

    NekoNina Well-Known Member

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    20201220134849_1.jpg 20201219121653_1.jpg 20201219121814_1.jpg
     
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  11. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    There are still bland areas but these places were more similar to the screens you posted before the update and look now*: 55f08a58-ae09-4530-a690-f15910a69f3f (1).jpeg 4a371a58-925b-47df-971d-ee320f049654 (1).jpeg f1e875ee-197f-42d8-a642-868d55a0090d (1).jpeg

    Also some bland areas I believe are correct for the location of the route, which is not a german forest.

    *I noticed after the update those areas looked better, I can't rule out it's just me noticing what was always there but after that update LGV felt more detailed and polished, even thought the didn't add any new scenery
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  12. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I had to put TSW2 on my SSD (annoyingly the one I have Windows on) to get HMA to run even vaguely decently (constantly stuttering). I've since uninstalled HMA because it took up too much room.
    Even after putting it on an SSD it still stutters unless I play it at like 8pm on a Friday the 9th, upside-down on a balloon.
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Actually it could well a problem. TS20xx's graphics take a fraction of the processing horsepower the same assets do in TSW.
     
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  14. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I will wait for the explanations and see what the next preview brings, they know the issues and we will see what judgement is used. I think some people often get worked up but as said above some people who aren't normally so vocal are more vocal this time and that counts for something. Everything is relative, personally I am looking forward to the route and the Javelin in particular, and hoping for the best.

    It would be nice if the debate would remain civil and people don't say things they don't mean in the heat of the moment. We are one community with a shared love of trains at heart, both customers and employees.
     
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  15. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    That 2nd shot is by far my least favourite part of this route, big OOF. its NEC 2 electric boogaloo. I assume alot of us remember Shukal s screenshots of NEC.

    I expect the addressing the issues on stream will be alot of dancing around it and lots of "we're listening".....you do a awful lot of listening and not alot of doing. Im genuinely curious as to what happens after our feedback is passed over, cause it never seems actioned I assume it gets dropped into a "I mentioned it" folder which auto-empties every 30 days?

    I cant wait for the "we're not filling Hoo yard with statics as it prevents us from using it in the future" excuse, like they have any plans of EVER doing ANYTHING with it......
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  16. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember there being much anger when HMA was released apart from layers on consoles
     
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  17. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    This screenshot is the place that made me refund the route. Absolutely atrocious. I hope that they will continue to revise the route and maybe I will come back to it another time. As it stands, absolutely unacceptable.

    Cheers
     
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  18. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    FEEL THE DETAIL

    REACH OUT AND TOUCH IT, I need to double check but I really hope theyve stopped using these headings in their store pages.

    I honestly cant, and I mean it as nicely as I can put across in text form, understand how ANYONE can sit back and look at that and go "yep, im proud of this work".
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  19. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    bit like this BR125 ? ;)

    No, to be fair to them, there has been quite a few things that've been raised and subsquently appeared on the roadmap, and some have released, although not sure about any scenery changes have appeared, apart from clipping issues on Bakerloo.
     
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  20. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    I thought it was just discussed that we wanted to remain civil.
    I understand your anger it feels the same for me sometimes with DTG but thats still not a reason to word it that cynical and passive aggressiv towards DTG in general or Sam in particular.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  21. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Im going to make a wild assumption as in my head its not totally insane. We've been telling them their sky texture is dog poo tier quality for close to 4 years and its never changed...now in my head a sky texture isnt the most advanced thing to change yet its never improved. It feels like we're making these tiny things which will take a route from 4/10 to a solid 7/10 really really obvious but stuff it never changed.

    Its obviously alot more complex, but it honestly boggles my mind that a rework of PAX AI isnt seen as a big enough priority to work on. Ive PMd Sam with my own reasons why the AI walking out infront of my train is route breaking and I wont go into them in a public forum but the fact they dont even seem interested in working on something so core to a train sim is mind boggling. Im sure ill get a "we know, it might get done one day" reply but really? you dont see it as a important part of your product? what exactly is a next gen train sim to you, because ALOT of things in TSW seem very previous gen. I dont think we can make things any more obvious. I shudder to think what TSW would be like without any of our feedback if its taken so seriously.

    Alexandreo3 I appreciate your opinion, but in mine my post was in no way passive aggressive to anyone. it was blunt yes, but in no way uncivil.
     
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  22. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but HMA as a base route without layers still totals far more than SEHS, even with just S-Bahn, and considering that TSW uses a tile system, the crossings wouldn’t be loaded into the same tile as the fences on the particular section we’re talking about.

    If you compare for example the tile in HMA, which consists of ALOT of signals, track, the city scape, the ICE depot, train wash, S Bahn station and Munich HBF, it’s going to be impossible for the HS1 section between London Tunnel 2 & Ebbsfleet to even come close to the same footprint.

    Also, there are multiple Easter eggs including donkeys, interactive lights on power boxes etc, so it doesn’t seem like performance is so stretched that they can’t at the very least add fencing.

    DTG have defended their performance limits time and time again with their tile system, and add in the fact that they’ve told us that they have already made memory optimisation improvements, it’s very unlikely that we’re looking at a performance issue here.

    When talking about the route and it’s differences, even on the subject of scenery, Matt at no time mentioned nothing regarding performance issues, unlike on the HMA streams, and no admission was made regarding accuracy, in fact, the only statement that was made was that it was “pretty close, it’s pretty good”, this thread contains damming evidence that indeed it does not look close.

    In the end we don’t know what the problem is, which is why it’s important for DTG to be more transparent for what our expectations should be, they really need to open up about what performance limits actually mean for the end product, or why obvious things are missed so much.

    However, we are being told in one breath that improvements are being made, and that TSW 2 opens the gates for better content, but then in the next breath they’re openly hostile in discord regarding expectations and performance limits.

    Either way, there is a failure here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  23. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The SEHS preview stream is now on Youtube
     
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  24. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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  25. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The brakes are fixed on the 375! That's all I needed to see. :D
     
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  26. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Stream was just posted to Youtube
     
  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Please don’t paint everyone with the same brush to when it comes out to pointing out inaccuracies. I genuinely want this route to be a success, I really do. Whilst constructive criticism may sound harsh or seem like it’s nitpicking, it really isn’t. I just want the route to look and feel like some of the other great routes we have in TSW.

    If you haven’t already, go to the top of page 3. My explanation explains quite clearly as to why these details are important to this route. You might learn something from it that you didn’t already know. Specifically the route.
     
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  28. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for highjacking this here, but have they actually implemented more scenery post launch of LGV? I must have missed that from patch notes then. Lack of scenery was one of the main reasons for me to skip on LGV, but knowing that they do add scenery afterwards would be a great precedent for SEHS and other routes as well.
     
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  29. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    We don't search for crooks and crannies in the DLC... they scream at us right our poor and tired retinas... our crippling ears. Attention to detail may not be important to casuals, but its crucial nontheless. The work that's missing should've gone in regardless of whether 60% of the player base won't mind. Iterating SEH worse than its predecessor is shocking.
     
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  30. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    This is the big picture issue, TSW was sold as the next leap forward in train simulation, TSW 2 was supposed to be the next leap from that, yet here we are.
     
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  31. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-1-24_1-28-42.png
    Ummm.... I'm going to assume they know about the complete lack of ground here? Or is there some form of wall right next to the track that's being covered by lighting and shadows?
     
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  32. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    It’s missing, you can see the texture blur and the ground at the bottom of that missing chunk.
     
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  33. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    If I remember correctly a lot of the grass detailing was not showing up correctly and was fixed on the 11/01 update and I noticed the route looked a bit better

    Unless I suddenly noticed something that was always there I think it was a result of the update. But no, there were not any additional scenery posts added to LGV post launch, sorry I used the wrong word there :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm rather nonplussed that people expect the sort of polish Rockstar produces with literally thousands of people and a budget on the scale of a Hollywood blockbuster, from a 100-employee indie studio.
     
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  35. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I don’t. I don’t think many do. I do, however, expect it to be at least as good as the same route in DTG’s ‘old’ simulator which, let’s remember, was released in February 2013 (the route, not the game).

    Nearly a decade on people are defending the clear lack of comparable detail because of ‘performance issues’. If that really is the case then there are bigger problems here with TSW that may well eventually be the end of the game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2021
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  36. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Given that Rockstar can give quite poor quality, not the best comparison!

    The issue is that DTG can actually produce good quality products, look at HMA for example, other than a few PZB and performance issues, it's actually a good route and was well received because of it.

    The problem is that simple things like the fences and ballast have such a huge visual impact. When simple things are missed then it becomes more of an inquisition to find what else was missed.

    DTG can quite easily rectify things:

    - Put the fences in. These have such a visual impact that I can't fathom why they're missing.
    - Fix the gaping hole by the side of one of the bridges.
    - Make Hoo Yard look reasonable. It just needs some static wagons adding, as at the moment it just looks like some sort of wasteland.

    We're not talking about polishing a car here, we are talking about making sure the car has the wing mirrors fitted. There's a huge difference between these missing fences and a comment such as "CIS Screen on platform 1 is 1m out"
     
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  37. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    I’m reasonably impressed, having watched the stream.

    Pros:

    • Level Crossings, integrated with the signalling system. Very impressed!
    • Javelin model looks fantastic
    • Correct colouring on LED signals, these look, well basically real now!
    Cons:

    • More services are needed there was definitely a lack of other trains in the route. The 465 will bring more of course, for example, can you drive one of the additional St Pancras-Maidstone West Javelin services between St Pancras & Strood
    • The 375/9 is just a reskinned 377, slightly disappointed in that.
    Now the sounds for the throttle sound like they are from the 377, but can anyone confirm what it should sound like?
     
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  38. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    Screenshot_20210124-083632.png
    So while there is one train per hour to London, at least at this time, there are two to faversham. So the timetable probably changes during the day, i dont live there but one Train per hour seems a little less, even in Off peak, given that they are Trains commuting to London
     
  39. Analogue Anomaly

    Analogue Anomaly Member

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    I was born in Chatham (I know poor me!), grew up in the area and have spent some 15 years commuting into London; much of this on the high-speed line.

    My thoughts:
    The train looks excellent, and what we saw of St.Pancras station was good. A little dark but it is in reality a pretty cold and bland part of the station. I found the area to the right as you depart St.Pancras a bit jarring, canal very poorly modeled and what are those silos? These were gasholders some years ago but are now residential blocks and a park:
    [​IMG]

    Stratford again felt too dark, although its short of natural light, im sure there is much more local lighting.

    Chatham, and Gillingham stations I think are very well captured, I was expecting to see more as you go over the Luton arches (just before Gillingham tunnel) - are there really that many trees in that area? Im less familiar with the rest of the route but it looked representative enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    One gets stored at Faversham sidings, the rest return to the depot
    This is why some morning services start outside of Thanet or Faversham (such as at Sandwich) to establish the service pattern in the morning and take one out of service in the afternoon
     
  41. Tom Fresco

    Tom Fresco Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting to see how the people here think the route isn't good and some are even asking to publish the route a few weeks later due to its issues, while in the german forums the route ist seen as very well made and with diversified gameplay. (I know with German routes its probably the other way around)
     
  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The station pictured is Gravesend (platform 2 shown)
    The service pattern INTO London from here is 2 SEHS via Ebbsfleet, 2 ThamesLink via Dartford, Woolwich and Greenwich and 2 SE via Dartford and any of the North Kent Lines. There are also services to Victoria via Lewisham so that's a minimum of 7 services an hour INTO London but all of the normal SE services (bar a very few that go onto Strood) terminate at platform 0
    These are not shown on this route (yet) because we don't have a 700 which run the TL services or a 465 which run the NK ones

    Coastbound the service pattern is alternating SEHS and TL services (for the most part) with four trains per hour, the SEHS services do NOT stop at Higham and several do not stop at Strood. There are four or five per day which go to Strood and then onto Maidstone, but I don't know if these are in game

    On the Chatham Mainline you get two 375 services for each 395 service with occasional 465s starting at Gillingham, and the 700s every half hour to and from Rainham with Chatham having 199 Southeastern services on weekdays, and 80 or so Thameslink ones
     
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  43. Jamy

    Jamy Active Member

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    I have no real beef with the route, I'm no rivet counter and don't know the area. My real beef is the game engine.
    I have 2000 hours of TS2021 and 170 hrs of TSW2. I ask myself Why do I still use TS2021 when it looks so god dam awful when compared to TSW2.
    The answer is game play. If someone said to me you can only have 1 train simulator installed on your PC I would probably choose TS2021
    With TSW2 my heart bleeds every time I go past a sterile empty yard the game completly lacks atmosphere
    The scenario editor is nothing more than a token timetable editor, I can't tell a story, share a story with others, run around a train, start/stop a loco, drop off wagons, refuel the loco ect. ect.
    The liverery designer to me is nothing more than a distraction
    No station names on the 2D map!! (how difficult is that to implement)
    The list goes on...Long live TS2021
    I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if the game falls short in some aspects it dam well needs to pick up the slack in other aspects, route build being one of them which it clearly isnt
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  44. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I completely agree with you, except with the argument that TS2021 looks awful when compared to TSW.

    With TS2021 set up right, both titles have their strengths (and weaknesses) and in my eyes there’s not a great deal in it. One thing is for sure, TS2021 is way more atmospheric and that is nearly certainly down to the far superior lighting that the AP Sky/Weather pack provides.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2021
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  45. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    What happened to the QE2 bridge? It looks like it’s a random motorway bridge not the suspension bridge it’s supposed to be.
     
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  46. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering this too. I had been looking forward to it from the promotional artwork, but after watching the stream on YouTube, it seemed to have been missing almost entirely. That is a bit cheeky.

    Cheers
     
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  47. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    I've watched the stream again and I'm sure if the high-speed fences were there, the route would have been accepted much better. All the other scenery would probably be seen as passable as it has just the same flaws as most other routes (which is just sad tbh). Missing houses, dead yards, wrong bridges and tunnel portals are on every route... but here they just reinforced the "unfinished" feeling. Even the wrong ballast is a recurring thing.
    Should that be overlooked then? Defenitely not, but I'd rather see the complaints directed at the general quality of scenery on all routes, as they are not much better than SEHS.

    It certainly doesn't help that excitement (and with it expectations) was a bit higher for this route and the very first screenshots we saw showed the biggest flaws.

    And in my opinion, the route looks just fine. The Ebbsfleet - Faversham actually looks quite good and pretty, while the high-speed part could be a bit better
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  48. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Just looked back at the SEHS stream on youtube, there are 2 javelin trains an hour going from St. Pancras to Faversham (and beyond) it seems from when Matt looks at the PIS. However in the other direction there was only 1 tph, at least for the time when Matt was looking. (source 27:25 in the SEHS youtube video)

    With regards to the Charing Cross and Victoria services to Gravesend and back, you wouldn't even be able to drive these one stop, and they are mainly operated by 465s, so what is the point in including them? Thameslink Rainham to Luton services are not included for reasons that if they want to do a class 700 in future it will layer into this route I would assume.

    I think a Class 700 is possible as a DLC for this route because it would be about half hour journey from Rainham to Gravesend, so that's similar to how long we operate the 375s for. However its more likely it comes as part of a separate route like London-Brighton or London-Bedford and is then layered here.

    In terms of the 375s these operate from Faversham to Rochester and then diverge just before Strood station to the Chatham main line onwards to Victoria, so that is the correct place to operate them on. With regards to these 3tph services on the Chatham Main Line we see when Matt is selecting a 375 service that there are 3tph each way outside rush hour (at least we see for between 10am-midday). (Source: 1:11:21 in the SEHS video on youtube)

    Higham is a thameslink only (apart from a few rush hour SE services) station, and since there are no thameslink trains included, there are no services which stop there! There is a station on Koln-Aachen no services stop at for a similar reason!

    There are at least AI services that go from Ashford-Ebbsfleet-St. Pancras so these services are still included, just not driveable, to me that's acceptable, but fair enough if not for you.

    People are comparing this timetable to Munich timetable which really isn't fair anyway, because that's got an S-Bahn! It's a lot more regular than the Chatham Main Line services! Again, if you let yourself expect an S-Bahn style timetable on this, that's on you not DTG as you could have done the research beforehand. You can look up how regular the timetables are at every UK station on wikipedia. For example here for Chatham station: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_railway_station
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Where is all this awful scenery I keep reading about?! I don't think it looks that bad at all. Okay there are some missing fences and the ballast is the wrong colour but the route does not look as terrible as I keep reading it is!
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The QE2 bridge is a cable stay bridge in the middle with two standard support leadups, not suspension
    [​IMG]
     
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