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South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    Didn't know that, every day is a school day.
     
  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I cross it 3 or four days a week, it's shown in the pics as it looks in real life
     
  3. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    I feel like it's my turn to add my two cents to the discussion. For context, I own almost all TSW2 DLCs, the only exceptions being Oakville, IoW, the Class 52, C40-8W and the M3 (can you see a pattern here? Minus the 52, all some of the most criticized content) . I've given praise when it's been deserved, I really don't think I'm someone who nitpicks to the extreme, if anything it's constructive criticism as I love the game and I want to see it improve over time.

    I was quite eager for this route, I had played it on TS, and getting to enjoy the javelin in higher quality like we've been able to experience the improved ICE 3s was a pretty good value proposition. But unfortunately, like many others here and on the Discord have already said, the combination of missing details mean that, I do not plan to purchase the route in it's current status. (And I would recommend anyone who's on the fence to hold back too for now)

    As Sam has said, some of the details in isolation are not really a problem, and I completely agree, especially something like the ballast could be changed in a mod. But that's also the problem, if a community mod literally made in a couple hours at most can fix such a glaring problem, why hasn't DTG done it? I tend to give the benefit of the doubt a lot, sometimes maybe to much, but it really feels like they are stretching it thin at times. And the promise of fixing it after the fact, I'm sorry but they've broken that trust for me. Once a route is released, improvements are minor.

    Ultimately, I feel like they're aiming for targets that are just a bit too short, time and time again, routes feel like they could have used an extra couple weeks of polish to work out at least some of the details, some better textures here, some lighting tweaks there would do wonders in making the routes feels so much better. We know they can achieve some pretty great content, HMA, SKA, ECW are in my opinion good examples of this, sure there's still plenty of things to nitpick, but I don't feel like I'm being drawn out of the immersion like I have been with LGV. I purchased that route because I found the TGV to be pretty great with all it's working systems, and at 300km/h you do go past the worst parts of the scenery pretty fast. The route also has missing walls and fences, but it's far less glaring as it's usually in areas with trees lining the track, whereas I feel this will be even worse on SEHS.

    Lastly, I don't want to accept "performance issues" with being the reason some key details of the route are missing, and the low number of services, (coronavirus timetable is a dubious excuse too, as I'd rather have an unrealistic timetable to make a route feel more alive, and again HMA exists) . These days, static items don't cost much performance with RAM capacities being much higher than they were than in the TS days. If they are truly having issues displaying a simple, repeating fence, then I'm sorry but they have more urgent problems to fix.

    Oh and please tone down on the bloom...
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  4. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    I’ve been across loads of times, just never twigged it wasn’t a suspension bridge for some reason.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  5. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    It's probably due to all the excitement and the fact that the very first screenshots showed some big flaws. SKA's scenery looks much much worse and is even more inaccurate yet barely anyone complained about that.
     
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  6. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You need to look up and right from your posted picture,
    At the point you're looking at the clockwise A282 is above and the anticlockwise A282 (coming out from Dartford tunnels) goes underneath. The bridge was slotted between them during construction
    If you really wanted to be pedantic you could highlight that the overbridge should have a thick barrier section over the SEHS line as it does in real life, but am I that pedantic?
     
  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Picture from the stream showing the HS1 route on approach to the A282
    upload_2021-1-24_10-42-18.png
    Picture from google streetview just under HS1 from approximately same location (you can see the truck stop on the right in both pictures)
    upload_2021-1-24_10-43-3.png

    Not sure they've done the bridge towers justice, but will wait and see
     
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  9. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Just had a watch of the first 2/3rds of the stream....looks v good to me, will definitely purchase. Scenery looks nice and I really like the way they've updated the signalling with the LCs. The new LED sigs look really good. Great to see that they don't change to green from red when doors closed. Unsure if there's any approach control on this route in real life, so I'll have to wait and see if they've implemented that feature.
    I get the fence discussion but that can be added in a couple of minutes I guess. Ballast colour doesn't bother me that much as long as it blends well with the surroundings. I don't know the route well at all, so I understand that folks who do will notice all the differences. Sound is low, yes, but I'm sure that can be tweaked.
    Overall, looking forward to 4th Feb for release.
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't see big flaws, I see some minor inaccuracies at most, which maybe should not have escaped unnoticed but I am not sure they are major flaws. It looks like a UK railway line running through pleasant English countryside. From what I can see it looks as good as the other routes we have had!
     
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  11. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Watched the stream and I don't know if anybody has mentioned it, but the amount of grass, bushes and branches sticking into the track is ridiculous. On many routes, you bump into this from time to time, but here it's just everywhere. The third rail is basically covered with it. The shoes would be destroyed before finishing a single run if they had to go through all this mess.
     
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  12. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Having watched part of the stream again (it’s now on YouTube), the lack of cab sounds in the 395 (other than hearing the throttle/brake lever being manipulated and various alarms going off) is disconcerting. I’m still going to reserve full judgement until a later date, once I’ve played the route, but if the 395 cab is that quiet in real life I’d be very surprised. I acknowledge that Matt forewarned that the sounds weren’t finished, so I hope the cab does sound better on future streams/release.
     
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  13. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Watched the full stream earlier and after buying an running the tgv line about 4times I can’t see this being in my library.
    Watched the whole stream earlier and whilst I couldn’t put my finger on it I won’t be rushing out
     
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  14. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    I don't want to be your killjoy, but unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree. You only need to skim the rest of this thread, and seek through the stream to see pretty obvious issues, missing textures, inappropriate ballast, something that is front of you the entire time, parts of the route that look desolate despite in reality being built up urban areas, no cars on busy roads, cars hovering above the ground in parking lots, yards being empty when they really shouldn't be, grass lining the tracks in places that it really shouldn't like at Ebbsfleet making parts of HS1 look like a route that's been around for a long time, The grass popping in meters in front of the cab. Reused 2D textures from TS making things look pretty flat and boring.

    If you want to look over those issues, that's your choice, but I personally think saying it's up to the same quality as other routes is a stretch. Like don't get me wrong, some of the stations look pretty nice, the vegetation is good too in the places it should be compared to some previous routes, but it feels like two steps forward, one and half steps back when really they could be doing better...
     
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  15. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    It is perfectly OK to prefer TS2021. For me it is the opposite, I hardly ever play TS2021 any more. One of the reasons is game instability and relatively frequent crashes. The other reason is that for me the TSW2 cabs and details give so much more realism for me that I really prefer that. Third reason is I dislike career mode in all ways. Fourth reason is the much better HUD.

    I do not expect anyone to agree worth me. That is OK, but let us accept that we have a large variety in expectations and requirements. DTG really needs a lot of wisdom to sort this out.
     
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  16. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Everything you've listed here is found on every single route DTG produces, yet they receive far less complaints. If it's fine on others for some reason, why is this route a disaster? Why do we just let it slide on every other release? This route is really not much worse in any aspect, except for the missing fences.
    I think we should be addresing the general scenery quality on all routes not just on this one that many wanted to be better.
     
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  17. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Question for you and anyone else who wants to answer, how does this compare to LGV? That route I'm pretty certain had most of the same issues, and while it didn't have fencing issues it did have the overhead wire issue which people got hanged up on to a similar degree. Despite that it's generally a very well like route, people were largely able to overlook scenery issues. In what ways did LGV come out better that is lacking so far in the Southeastern preview footage that would tank the reviews unlike in LGV's case? Very interested to hear some opinions on this.
     
  18. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    This is yet another valid issue to point out, as it can definitely be one of those annoying little distractions that take you away from the gameplay.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Somewhat related to this is also the way that the ballast blends with the grass. Something certainly feels off about it, right? It's an incredibly minor thing, I know. But then there's other issues...
    [​IMG]
    Like other folks have pointed out, there is literally a massive hole in the ground just before Chatham station, off onto the bottom right.

    In the way its being presented right now, Southeastern High Speed certainly feels like an unfinished route. I am incredibly grateful that Sam has picked up on the feedback in these forums and realized the issue. In isolation, yes, these are all minor inconveniences. The ballast can be a different color, there could be missing fences, and the timetable mode isn't as full-fledged as it could be.
    However, having all of these minor issues group together in one package? It paints an unflattering perception of this product. Southeastern High Speed does not feel like it matches the quality of previous routes such as HMA... which does have those fences along the high speed lines. The ballast and the railway infrastructure felt like it belonged. There was a vast and varied timetable. How come there is such a difference in quality between both products?

    For some people, Southeastern High Speed may very well be a day-one purchase because it's a route that many are fond with. But there's a sizeable portion that are unconvinced when the quality of a product is surpassed by its previous iterations.
    As much as I love the Class 395 Javelins, I'm not buying it just for the luxury of having them, no. I would be buying this route because I expected a certain level of immersion and interactivity and hours of gameplay that come with TSW2 routes.
    I am looking forward to seeing the Feb. 4th release, but I am also hoping that something is done with all this feedback on the forums.
     
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  19. hightower

    hightower Guest

    To be fair, I don’t think we do. I can only assume that’s why some of us (and I’d be surprised if I’m not counted amongst them) are being dubbed ‘serial complainers’.

    I see it as constructive feedback which DTG claim to want. Unfortunately a lot of it never gets addressed, so it seems like people are complaining for the sake of it by bringing up the same things time and again.

    The reality is in fact quite the opposite.
     
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  20. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    To me it's the combination of a lot of these problems that have been around for a long time at this point. Some of which had been improved upon and subsequently got worse again. And what makes it all the more obvious is that in some ways, the TS route did some of these details better. Some of the details are things you'd expect them to work out for good after the few years the game has been out. I

    I also noted in my first post on this thread that LGV had issues I overlooked. I chose to do so as I wanted a French route, and the TGV in tsw. Plus most of it you speed through very fast, such that the worst offending places are passed by in moments. The difference here is that, again it's a route that exists in TS, and that it's also a route people are more familiar with IRL, being a commuter route, people will get far more used to the smaller detail, vs an LGV where most people will only ride it a few times a month at the very most, unless you're one of those fancy TGV commuters. Plus, it's their first French route, new region means a lot of new assets required, imo it's acceptable to not be perfect on the first route in a new region, VS the UK where they've already built a good library of content.
     
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  21. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    You know what's funny about this issue? If you go and look back at the trailer that was released before the stream on Friday, one the first shots they show is of this place and the hole isn't there:
    Chatham Hole.PNG
    So whatever happened between the trailer being made and the route being shown of in the stream on Friday, who knows???
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You are not being a killjoy, I am perfectly capable of making my own mind up without being swayed by others opinion. Most people wouldn't even notice the ballast and I suspect many who are now complaining about it may not have even noticed if it hadn't being pointed out to them.

    I personally think from what I have seen so far it is up to the same standard as other routes I have. It hasn't even been released yet and what we saw was a developer build so it was not the finished article anyway.
     
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  23. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    This is it.

    I haven’t seen one person here asking for something that’s extremely pedantic.

    The track ballast IS wrong, it’s an asset that can be easily corrected, and then eliminate a vocal complaint on all future routes.

    Missing rail infrastructure, such as fences and sound barriers, that are literally trackside, should absolutely be in place.

    The 375 has that same daft PIS that was fedback to DTG over a year ago, and still hasn’t been changed, in fact it’s being implemented into new trains as we’ve seen here.

    Sounds are still being managed poorly, with the 375 having another major flaw from the 377, the exact same sounds that we have again, given as feedback.

    It is not serial complaining, it’s DTG time and time again telling us to leave feedback, but then not only do they not want to rectify those issues, but they duplicate the same errors we have told them about.
     
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  24. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    -The 395 throttle is nearly silent it just bumps and only thuds when it is at its extents
    -The 395 interior lighting is too bright
    -The 395 motor sounds are unfinished
    -The route itself is missing protective fencing from high speed trains
    -The 465 has not been confirmed to bring any additional services at all
    -Track ballast is still not getting any attention paid to
    -One train per hour timetable
     
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  25. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    That hole is pretty alarming.
     
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  26. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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  27. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    im now 50/50 about buying this route. the main reason is that there is no hoo juntion freight trains and the yard is completely empty. i lived in Chatham and married my first wife in Chatham i also lived in Gillingham and Rainham as well. when i left the navy in Chatham my first job was to become a shunter at hoo junction suppling oil trains to isle of grain power station down the cliffe branch line and also to queenboro power station down the sheerness branch line. we also ran oil trains to and from Acton.

    i have now moved to up north and i dont know whats happening at hoo junction these days but i have seen videos on youtube and hoo junction is still used
     
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  28. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The Sheerness Branch would have been nice to see added to the route. It would have expanded 375 services a bit.
     
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  29. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Even if the route is now less used by freight, it probably wouldn't make anyone mad having 4 pairs of freight trains using GWE Class 66and aggregates going between Hoo and Faversham. Maybe extra two pairs with containers. You only need GWE which many people have and others would buy to improve SEHS. 12 services (maybe some extra shunting ones) wouldn't be hard to make and it would make people super happy.
     
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  30. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this. Whilst it would be great to have a realistic freight service, it would be nice to just have anything. It adds extra content, more variety and stops the yard looking like an empty wasteland.

    DTG are capable for using layers for German content, however this ability is rarely passed to the UK content...
     
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  31. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    And you can always be like "well there's a big construction going on around Canterbury in our timetable, so we simulated you running aggregates and tools down there."
     
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  32. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. DTG can be really strange when it comes to what they think is important with regards to accuracy. They think having a high speed line with absolutely no fencing/barriers separating it from the local lines is fine but at the same time say 'oh no, we can't put any freight layers in because this isn't really a freight route and there aren't many freight services in real'. We end up getting the worst of both worlds. I'll say it again: why are DTG so reluctant to use layers in UK routes? Modern UK route should = a class 66 layer, even if just as AI or static in yards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  33. seatsea

    seatsea Active Member

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    Creative liberties, to improve the game-play aspect are quite alright in my opinion. Especially when it comes to adding more services to make the place more lively. After all, for now we only have one timetable for every route, and no way to make our own, compounding services that would usually happen say, once a week all into the 24h of the schedule is a worthwhile separation from reality.

    Within reason obviously, you're not going to expect S-Bahn levels of frequency of TVL for example. (though it would be fun for a fictional thing :D)
     
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  34. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Are there different teams who work on UK to German content? To me, it seems the German routes are made with more love and attention, they just seem better made than UK routes.
     
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  35. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt that there are multiple teams working on different routes for TSW. This is fairly obvious as the route quality shows it, as well as the types of assets used.

    Unfortunately, this means that it is hit or miss whether you’ll receive the ‘good team’ or ‘mediocre team’ for your desired route.
     
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  36. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I still stand by GWE being better in terms of quality than any route they've released since. I suspect alot of those devs have left....

    I remember when WSR released alot of people realised changes, such as really really shoddy low res textures literally on the platforms (posters etc) I dont know what they did internally, but there was definitely a shift to lower quality textures and assets after the release of GWE. Look at the assets around Paddington as you leave and compare them to assets on 'newer' routes - which seem to make use of alot more TS classic assets and generic assets.

    I believe it was after GWE the lighting was made worse also.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  37. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-1-24_13-10-44.png
    These are all the freight services timetabled to pass Strood tomorrow (a Monday). I don't know where they went trainspotting, or when, but surely that's enough to jsutify having something even if it's layered on.
     
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  38. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Maybe two of those will run, they're mostly Q paths other than the STPs.
     
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  39. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I would 100% take a purely switching timetable for the yard....I highly doubt they have any plans for the yard, at all, ever....I do fully expect the "we might have plans for it in the future" spiel (they dont)
     
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  40. Thank you very much for including this video, it's the perfect way to show people who don't think that old, brown ballast in a modern high speed line is a problem.
     
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  41. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Would it hurt to have a few DB class 66 loco in Hoo yard with some wagons knocking around too? It would bring it to life no doubt, DB have an albeit small depot there, on google maps the sidings are pretty full of wagons and locos.
     
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  42. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    This is what irritates me quite a lot, there were a few things they gave that explanation for in the stream, such as Hoo yard, the 2 ES platforms at St. Pancras, and the siding at Ebbsfleet, personally I do not believe that we will see use of them in the future, what else are we going to get that isn't a 395 in that siding? certainly not a EuroStar, we should get them in the scenario creator, there is not really a reason we should not get them available for use there.

    As for journey length and services being "worth it", the reason we enjoy loco DLC is because they add more variety into our routes, service length does not seem to have been a factor in other DLC's, RRO, GWE & HMA jump to mind with some very short 1/2 stop services, and those services go a long way into adding life to a route.

    I really hope they consider services to Gravesend with the 465, regardless of how many stops that service will be, Hoo yard at the very least needs static stock in it, but preferably we could get some 66 runs going, however as I understand it, we have no freight wagons that are actually used on the line.

    It just feels like DTG use the short service spiel as a selling point in one route, then its a negative point on another.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't expect them to announce what's coming in a pack they haven't said anything else about...

    If people want things to be right, putting in things which are wrong then defeats the argument. As someone who lives 100 yards from this line, seeing regular freight runs would be incorrect, seeing a single container run on this line would be incorrect, seeing the 375s on the Gravesend lines would be incorrect...

    And also not really necessary. There are freight runs from a number of places that go west of Strood, over 40 scheduled runs a day of various kinds (through Gravesend) even if many of them are "operator activated" kind, and east of Strood the service pattern is about accurate (170 vs 199 SE services through Chatham in a weekday)

    I do kind of question making the 465 over the 700 for modern day running, Matt seemed to intimate there weren't blocks on doing so on the stream and it would fit much more nicely into the route shown between Northfleet / Gravesend and Rainham (a half hour drive calling at all stations including Higham which is missed on the SEHS services)
     

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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This would be accurate. I've seen all sorts of 66 locos in there
     
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  45. atpyatt

    atpyatt Active Member

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    My thoughts:

    Pros:

    • Interesting mix of 2 completely different signalling systems
    • Fully realistic platform information screens (big one for me)
    • Frequent station stops (I know this is personal taste but this is why I'm not interested in LGV)
    • Working level crossings (first time they've been implemented properly, the TS ones couldn't be interlocked with the signals)
    • I liked the 395 horn sound, the Yamaha keyboard stayed in the cupboard this time.
    • As usual great train models inside and out, particularly like the 395 cab, I sat in one once at a railway museum event.
    • I like the varied nature of the route from urban central London via high speed tunnels out to small towns in Kent and the stations seem well modelled.

    Cons:

    • I did notice a few lineside areas that could do with a little more attention, as has been pointed out. However nothing is in the major route breaking category for me personally.
    • I totally agree that there should be at least some static consists in Hoo yard, should be an easy fix.
    • I think there's a reasonable number of services but not the full timetable even after you exclude services which would require different trains such as the TL services, which is a shame. Using AI services to increase the number of services on the high speed section is acceptable to me though.

    Can't comment on 395 sounds because they hadn't finished them.

    I think encouraging DTG to continuously raise their standards is a good thing but the tone of some of the comments here have been over the top. It's a perfectly decent albeit not perfect route.
     
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  46. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I guess it means they don't have to bother going and getting a Thameslink license.
     
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  47. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    Showing a new route first on Steam is not the best idea. Even uploaded to YouTube, the quality and smoothness of the picture is just not good enough and therefore it doesn't give the best first impression of the route. I watched the whole thing and I have mixed feelings. Firstly, I like the two trains (although the Class 375 being essentially the same as the 377 is a little bit disappointing). The high-speed train is a little strange being so silent, but if it's like that in real as well then there we are. Apart from balancing the volume levels I'm not sure what will be done with sounds. Suggestion: maybe the developers could take some of those "artistic liberties" and make the train sound audible in the cab. It may not be 100% realistic but this is a game after all. They mentioned modifying the scenery at LGV for gameplay reasons, too.

    The route itself looks fine to me. Obviously, comparing it with real photos one can immediately see the wrong ballast colour, but that's not something that would break my immersion. (My opinion may probably be different if I actually lived there.) The scenery looks nice, much better than on LGV which looks extremely barren and poor (tree models and vegetation density) in comparison. Lots of dark tunnels but again, it's like that in real so it's ok.

    What made me have mixed feelings was the lifelessness of the route at this first glance. Barely any passengers (on console there are even fewer!), silent train and next to no AI traffic. It just feels static and lifeless, as if we were driving through a diorama. All the yards and tracks are empty everywhere, too. I definitely need to see better quality, and hopefully smoother streams to get a better picture of the route. At first glance it just looked too lifeless and bland for me, but again, the inadequate picture quality of the stream surely plays a part in this.

    Also, one more thing, but this stems from real life too: despite being called "high speed" it doesn't feel fast at all. Most of the high speed sections are in dark tunnels and the rest is just slow and silent. None of the excitement of LGV or Köln-Aachen is there. So that's another reason why people may feel somewhat underwhelmed by it.
     
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  48. I just want to point out that the ballast problem is the exact problem that existed in LGV, but it never really annoyed me that much. I understand that having different ballast colours on the same route is not yet possible, so I want to talk directly to DTG here, hopefully someone who works there is reading this.

    Look closely at the images below, it is not the track ballast that's pure dark brown, it's the ground texture next to the track. This ground texture is much easier to change.In real life, the ground in this area is pure light grey, which one can see on google maps or on youtube videos.

    I think that a quickfix could be changing the track colour to something slightly more grey-ish (as it is slightly too dark even in the classic lines) and changing the ground colour of some parts in the route to match the real-life grey ballast in HS1. That way we don't have to wait until the ballast system gets completely revamped in about 15 years time, and the route looks a lot more realistic.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  49. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    i did notice there was only one train in Gillingham sidings but there should be a lot more in the sidings. why is this called a high speed route if eurostar is not running on it.

    why was there no cars or pedestrians at the level crossings
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    When asked about the 700 Matt didn't comment on the license. Does that mean it's not an issue I wonder (always thought it WAS an issue, now not sure)
     
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