South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

I’d like to address the users who have decided to call this thread toxic, and exclaim that people are dancing around a fire.

1). There have been no directed comments or abuse toward any individual member of DTG, so let’s calm down.

2). The specific areas of the route that have been picked up on for lack of detail are very contrasting areas, leaving LT2 & 3 into Ebbsfleet is really the first time you get out into the open of the main chunk of the route and it doesn’t look right, for that matter it doesn’t even look good, and Hoo Yard, which is isolated and currently looks disused.

3). The 375 is virtually a clone of the 377, with all the feedback that was given to the 377, and for it to come back with none of that feedback addressed (except the braking, however I believe that was broken in the port to TSW 2) is a little mystifying considering it is being re-sold to us.

4). There are more points I could make but I think I’ll end with this; saying that a feedback thread is toxic because we aren’t mentioning things that DTG have done well is hilarious.

Bonus point, there are people in this thread that are seemingly going out of their way to incite arguments with other users, statements such as “by the way I do not want NYC Subway” and other sarcastic remarks just because there are people with that in their profile who are leaving negative feedback, it is childish and unwarranted, and is completely off topic.

 

As a New Yorker, I say, everyone can have their own route preferences.

 

Especially in a tunnel or against walls/fencing specifically designed to reflect sound, but then the latter are all missing anyway...

 

Matt said on stream a few weeks ago that the dev build updates every day so what he was showing us was almost certainly the current build.

But you are looking at it from the perspective of not being a fan of modern routes and not knowing the route in real life. I really enjoy NTP but because I know nothing about living in the 80's or the route itself it's much easier to overlook its inaccuracies (I assume it has some). This thread is pretty much divided into those who know the real route well and think the TSW version has been rushed, and those who don't know the route and think it looks fine (of course there are some exceptions). That doesn't mean that DTG shouldn't take the time to fix those errors and delay the release. London midland's post on page 6 is damning for all to see as the High speed section looks, in places, absolutely nothing like the real world or TS1 counterpart and that's unforgiveable.

 

If you're doing over 150mph something has gone very wrong...

 

It seems you haven't been in many train cabs before.

 

I believe he is talking about newer trains that have to comply with rules E.C.T.
Also in over head electric trains most of the equiptment and motors are a fair distance from the cab

 

Sorry the line speed for that section is 140mph with the Javelin.

200mph+ for Eurostar

 

300km/h is the max permitted speed on HS1 for any train.

 

Looks at permitted line speed for a Class 374 Eurostar train..... Maximum speed permitted is 320km/h on HS1 with one of those....

 

As far as I know, DTG is still encouraging us to provide feedback and I think a lot of feedback has been provided in this thread. I haven’t seen anything I would consider rude or abusive towards DTG staff. What I have seen is a lot of feedback from people who are clearly passionate about this route and disappointed with what they’ve seen so far. It would be silly if DTG were to dismiss this feedback as from what I can see, people have raised very valid points.

From a personal perspective, I don’t expect any route to be perfect. However, I do expect trains to look and sound as they do in real life - especially given how easy it is to obtain countless photographs of said trains on the Internet.

I accept sound can be an issue, but this is one area that DTG is (in my opinion) getting consistently wrong and the main area that needs considerable improvement. DTG may disagree - and they are entitled to do so - but given sound is such an emotive aspect of immersion - it has to be right, no excuses. Sound is track and wind noise, engine/motor sounds, maybe subtle rattles as things judder over points. Ambient sound like people talking, dogs barking, birds singing, water sounds at rivers and the sea, station ambience are all crucial too.

I also expect stations, signalling, OHLE and other track based content to be accurately modelled and for trains never to clip platforms.

In terms of other scenery, other than major and close to the rail landmarks, I’m not overly concerned if there are too many trees or the wrong colour ballast. As I’ve said before, when concentrating on driving, most of the scenery is just nice to see and I’m not distracted by slight inaccuracies that don’t impact play.

Finally, as I’ve said before, I expect everything to work as designed. Scenarios and timetabled services being completable without game breaking bugs and for trophies to pop 100% reliably whenever I’ve earned them. I don’t necessarily want to get every trophy, but I certainly want the ones I have earned.

 

The infrastructure does not support 320km/h, the trains may be able to do it but they can't on HS1.

 

Yes I've noticed that, while I hope I'm not one of the "serial complainers" I've been vocal about some of the issues with the game (especially on LGV), and I've noticed that in this thread a lot of the people that usually stay neutral or just immediately assume the "oh it's the usual complainers shouting" mentality have taken part on the discussion and everything remained civil and constructive, which makes me happy.

 

I’ve always said about missing scenery that the idea is that DTG try to capture the feel of a route and the buildings and things around the route don’t need to be exactly like reality. There are other inaccuracies that happen for various reasons that may not be that important to the feel of the route. This omission completely changes the feel of the route, but further than that, it’s not just scenery, it’s part of the railway. Recent issues of catenary not being correct, for instance, have one difference, there is some catenary there. The fences missing here were included in the TS version of the route because they are very important parts of the construction of the real railway, are very visible, and create the whole illusion that you are on HS1. Not having them is a problem. It turns that section into a different railway. If they never appear it will probably be one of those things I will get used to but if I want the short sections of HS1 that aren’t in a tunnel to actually feel like HS1 then I’m going to be out of luck. That’s why it’s important to a lot of people, they want it to feel like the railway they are supposed to be on.

 

Weak the redundant environment to be compatible with old hardware, such as PS4. Understandably, can there be enhanced PC scenes in the later stage?

 

Nat, thank you for posting this, I did indeed miss the post. I appreciate the response.

 

Maybe they've done it properly and we've just missed it! No sound in the cab because it has nothing to reflect from. Genius. /s

Based on openrailwaymap.org (which I think has a pretty trustworthy database) even Eurostar can do max 230 km/h on the section featured in the game. 300 starts shortly after Ebbsfleet on the way to the channel.

 

Personally I think it’s the opposite, things like ballast, route details and missing areas that weren’t as much as an issue in TSXX, are being brought up now because they were there in TSXX so of course it wasn’t an issue.

I think it’s funny that only argument against not having stuff like correct ballast and track infrastructure is that it’s a ‘small’ detail, if it’s so small and simple, then why isn’t it there, it would be a very easy win that would of prevented this entire post.

Maybe more of these feedback posts are becoming common because DTG have told us that feedback is taken in, and that they will do better, but it seems like we either stay in the same place or go backwards, but that is supposed to be ok because we get level crossings.

With this DLC we’ve ended up with the development cycle being at the point of appearing to be broken, one train doesn’t have sounds finished and the other has the exact same sound from over a year ago, suggesting that the teams do need more time with a product before it is finished, and that is absolutely fine.

 

Its a combination of all the small things making it one big issue - whats the point in supporting them if they cant even match the quality/authenticity of a route built over 7 years ago on a older game engine. Theyve completely dropped the ball with this one, maybe on of their most anticipated routes of the year and im sure they'll do it again.

I just dont see why we should support this anymore, its shocking that 4 years after release you still cannot match TSx routes in terms of details.

its of course going to be an argument of "youre over-reacting to a missing fence" etc but its bigger than that to the core of TSW, its them showing us how little they care for making authentic routes, or how ok they are with mediocrity.

if PC players want to save £25 the same route for TSx is currently £9.99, atleast there youll get something that resembles HS1.

 

Plus on PC there is a plethora of both payware and freeware mods to make it even better, something that TSW does not yet support.

So DTG should absolutely be aiming to make the content they produce at least a little better then they did previously.

 

Perhaps if someone could correctly articulate to DTG why it is more than "just a fence" then things might start to get some traction. As you say it is currently seen as "a missing fence" though I thought the post from londonmidland on page 6 with the comparisons between real-life, TS2021 and TSW2 is key. It shows the effect of the fence, the wall, *the separation*, the OHLE differences etc and is quite consise and gets to the point, it would be good to be able to put it in writing too.

 

LMs post is exactly what we need to do, but I think motivation to do it is low as we know it wont get actioned, itll be placed in the auto-delete after 30 days folder.

 

Hi, I suggest you go read my comment, found at the top of page 3. This explains it in quite a lot of detail and hopefully this will help you understand as to why these ‘cosmetic things’ are important.

 

On YouTube now

 

the combination of all the "minor cosmetics" being missed means they havent made HS1/London-Faversham route. Theyve made a generic Southern England route with a 395 on it. Theyve completely missed/ignored/not bothered to do that bits that make it HS1. Do they just not care anymore?

 

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I don't agree. A few extra fences would probably not cripple performance on consoles, the engine is very likely more flexible than that. It's not about performance, it's about authenticity, especially after TS2021 doing the same route more realistically. Toxicity is never constructive, I agree, but I also see in this thread that most people are not outright toxic, they're just voicing their opinions and disappointment. I'm curious how the final build will improve and, again, a properly good quality stream is needed to fully judge the route.

 

Make the Route accurate like on Train Simulator, or you don’t get our Money if you don’t wanna change the Route!!

 

I will say this again, the fencing might be a cosmetic but it's a basic requirement to have.

Most of the railways in the UK (and indeed the whole world) are mostly surrounded by fields etc, why would you purposefully leave the line open where animals & trespassers can easily just walk across the railway or along the track?

Now I know i'm being quite stupid about this, but I'm trying to give you my perspective on it and why I think that even though they are just static meshes they play a massive role in the general look and feel of the British landscape. At the end of the day, if they are not there then the route just looks wrong.

Feel free to disagree on that, but again it's just my overall opinion on it.

 

Sorry if I am blunt about this, but do you even know what the term "toxic" means?

Was this whole thread dedicated to people actually giving constructive feedback on a route under development a bunch of shambles?

The amount of people "disappointed" about the DLC is down to the fact that DTG simply haven't delivered what they normally deliver, which is "Authentic routes which replicate the real world locations in the best detail possible". So far that statement hasn't been met for the simple fact that they missed out one of THE MOST important key elements of a route that quite frankly cannot be missed or ignored.

TSW is a SIMULATOR and what does a simulator do? Replicate real world environments/activities into a game engine.

A normal passer-by would look at this conversation and might find it "childish" but who cares? This is a community who has an eye for detail and actually cares about the appearance of a route.

 

In real life, not seeing fences and walls along a track is actually unusual enough that it's stuck out to me when there wasn't any in urban areas. Like in Switzerland where often, there isn't fences along the tracks, or sometimes it's just very basic crash barriers separating the rails from the road.

But that only emphasizes the point that the presence of fencing, or the lack thereof, is all the more important. It makes a line feel distinctive. And as other's have said, the representation of HS1 here feels like it could be any random line, removing a big reason you'd get this route over another.

You only need to compare SKA and HMA to see an example of this, the former has fast lines that run right parallel to the local lines, whereas in several places on the later, in particular around stations, the local lines are sheltered from the noise with sound walls, like on the exit of Augsburg. It's a small yet distinctive difference between the two.

 

You could also classify this as a cosmetic issue, but you should probably fix it because it just looks wrong.


Same thing with the fence (or lack of) on the HS1 section, as well as the weird shared catenary with the LTSR - both make the route look simply wrong. I normally don't give a hoot about that sort of thing but it's so painfully obviously wrong - the part of the LTSR next to HS1 was electrified in the 1960s - HS1 was built in the mid-to-late 2000s - there's no way they'd even need to share infrastructure.

 

Yes and as I explain in a post a bit further on, I'm seeing the same people every time a route reveal is done, complaining. Yes this time they've been more constructive with that feedback, however it's the same people complaining.

I'm now going to walk away from this thread, so enjoy it! I've posted my opinion on the content within, and thats that.

Take care, don't buy the route if you aren't happy with it, and enjoy it on TS2021.

 

Is that railway bridge seriously clipping through KX?

 

You can ignore users if your issue is with people rather than the content of the post. Thanks for the contribution to the conversation though.

 

It's the content as well, not in all cases, but the vast majority. People are quick enough to complain, but only a few have posted on the good parts that they have seen, just seems to be constantly negative all the time.

 

Nobody's mentioned about the good parts of the route because there's nothing wrong with them, this thread is dedicated solely to the things that are wrong with it.

If you don't understand that, then I think you are in the wrong thread.

 

hello to the whole town for me I think the line lacks service it would take 200 services with the class 375 I think in my opinion and 50 services with the class 395 + 100 services with the exit of the class465 but what is missing the most it's freight services with a class66 and it's really the big negative

 

There's nowhere for a class 66 to go though, as Matt mentioned the route doesn't really get many freight services into Hoo Junction.

 

Yes. i very quickly put the Tyne Bridge through King's Cross

I aprpeciate it's a bit extreme on the "cosmetic issues" front, but I thought it was a funny idea.

 

Apparently we must congratulate DTG on getting stuff right, i'd be happy to talk about the good stuff, once the more pressing bad stuff has been dealt with.

 

Yes absolutely

 

And correct me if I'm wrong
Don't some of the posts in this thread list pros and cons?

 

If one is interpreting this thread as a bunch of people angry over a few missing scenery props, then you're surely missing the point.

The fact is that SEHS has a plethora of small issues that plague it, issues that it doesn't share even with other TSW routes. All of those small minor inconveniences all rolled into one package does not make this route look attractive at all when its releasing only a few months after HMA. While that one has its own performance issues, in no way was anyone complaining about the scenery and the quality of it. Yet here we are, where we are drawing comparisons between SEHS on TSW2, and the one on TS Classic....
When the predecessor from nearly 7 years ago arguably has better attention to detail....something is wrong.
DTG doesn't have to go about fixing these issues that were raised on these threads, but we as customers at least expect a good quality product that's worth the asking price. Otherwise, whats the point for asking feedback?

Those who frequent the forums over these last couple of months know that I've given DTG a lot of praise before. I give credit where credit is due. But there's undeniably something that feels off about this route. I don't feel confident adding it to my collection because I know I won't be satisfied with it. Many people won't, at least in its current state.
Everything from grass appearing where it shouldn't, to holes in the ground, to the ballast being far too dark, to empty yards, to incorrect railway infrastructure. SEHS was not held to the same standards as other routes– don't get me wrong, TSW routes all have areas that can be improved upon. But as a customer, I at least expect consistency.

 

The thread has everything from negatives to positives, pros and cons lists, discussion regarding the importance of such things and even a distribution of interesting knowledge of the route.

Apparently that is toxic though.

 

Actually it does get quite a lot of traffic, just not on the part of the route they have accessible / driveable.

You get services going to the Isle of Grain and you also get a lot of Network Rail engineering trains running to Whitemoor from Hoo Junction.

You also then get services running to Tonbridge etc up through Gravesend then on to Dartford and then the Sidcup line. However I don't know of many that carry on towards Faversham.

 

Only a few I think

 

Yeah just a few....

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1-25/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

 

Not many

 

You neither then...

 

I have been trying to hang fire giving my full thoughts on the route until we see a shipping build of it. Broadly, I have mixed feelings on it, and it would be a nice addition if it didn't have these issues.