1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Speculation: Goodbye Editor?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Alex656, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    1,020
    Hi Guys,

    Just to remind you that at the outset we said we won't release the editor until it is absolutely ready to go out the door. The reason you've not heard anything is because there really isn't anything to tell you. As far as we're concerned, the editor is still very much in progress and nothing has changed in our plan to release it.

    We do totally get you're really keen and eager to get started in the editor, and your patience is wearing a bit thin, but we won't share any details until we're ready to.

    As some individuals are deliberately intent on misleading people, we would advise: if a post regarding the editor does not include a direct link to an official post/article published by someone employed by DTG, on one of our official channels, you should regard it as:
    • probably the poster's or someone else's opinion
    • probably speculation or theory crafting
    • probably not true and/or deliberately intended to mislead
    • probably intended to encourage a reaction from you to further fuel their intent to disrupt/upset
    • probably not something you should take seriously
    Best, Steve
     
    • Like Like x 22
    • Helpful Helpful x 5
  2. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    So much for there's no communication whatsoever from the official side, nice! :) Hands down, that is something that has improved drastically over the last few months!
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    Good to see another official reply and thank you for that.

    I shall try my best not to react to histrionic posts about the editor in the future!
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    Three years of development and there isn't anything DTG can tell us. DTG announce a public beta in 2018 which gets cancelled without explanation and here we are 2020 still none the wiser. It's a pretty sad way to treat customers who have supported the development of the game over the last three years.

    As for speculation, why not show a live stream of the public build of the Editor which has supposedly been in closed beta for the last year? If it's at the point of beta, surely there is something to show us? It doesn't make any sense.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,657
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Hopefully for less than a second before you thought "Actually, I'll look at where the post is, who wrote it etc" and then made a determination of your own.
    I think I've seen enough people on here that do that to know it happens (though not in every case of course)
     
  6. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    Well yes, I have been on enough forums to know to take things stated with a pinch of salt, but not all do.
     
  7. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2018
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    570
    If its not for you all here constantly on their case we’d not have TSW to the level its at now. Is an Editor feasible, it probably will be, but is it feasible with Unreal Engine 4. I know they will have to adapt it to allow people to edit, as the cooking and frying process for UE4 doesn’t allow extensions like what people are doing remarkably for TS2020, merging routes, example ECML merge.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,657
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Then release the uncooked assets under license or make an editor only for scenarios or a hundred other things they could do, but they've said they're not going to because it's all or nothing. I had a direct conversation on a post with MattP at some point last year and that was basically the point he made. They want everything in place and totally working up to spec or they won't let the public have at it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. AlexNL

    AlexNL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2017
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    356
    It would help if you could give a little more detail. Remember, back in 2018 Matt said during his stream that a beta would come soon. It's January 2020 now and the silence is deafening. That's how speculation and conspiracy theories come to exist. Just some information would be enough to stop that.

    I'm not asking for detailed timelines, acceptance criteria or to commit to anything, but a little bit of information would be welcome. For example, which challenges are there still to overcome before you consider the editor to be 'good enough' for use by the general public?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  10. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    198
    What about just sharing what you've done with the editor over the past couple of years? Even if it's something completely uninteresting or too technical for most people.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    2,996
    I believe the public editor is essentially the same as the internal editor.
     
  12. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    467
    The TrainSim-Steve post has basically changed nothing. There is no evidence that the editor is in progress nor that the community should expect it soon (if actually in progress). DTG has proven that it could cancel huge projects (like flight sim world) from one day to another, and the "official" posts have not proven the contrary, so nothing new from this side.

    The approach towards the community is always the same for 10 years by now: tell the people that something is coming and/or tell people that something may or may not come to make them buy more DLCs, still hoping.

    EDIT: the more I read the TrainSim-Steve post the more I feel it's similar to a common politician post. "we are lowering the taxes and anyone else says that we are not going to do that, it's misleading you. VOTE FOR ME".
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    If it was at the point of public beta, then they'd have something to show. A closed beta is closed because it's not ready for the public yet. They've obviously got some development partners on-board for the closed beta, discovered issues with the way things were progressing, and – sensibly – decided to work on it some more to iron out the bugs before releasing it to the world.

    If they put it out and it's hard to use, buggy or otherwise compromised, the hundreds of relentless "where is it" threads will just be replaced by thousands of "it doesn't work", "how do I...", "why are you direspecting us by releasing buggy software" threads instead, and you still won't be able to do whatever it is you dream of doing.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    763
    ...and there it is

    Now can we please just stop with all these 'omgz editor is cancelled' threads/posts and just let DTG work on it. Good things come to those who wait as the saying goes.

    But as I can see on the subsequent posts...people are STILL not happy and want to have information NOW

    They can't win....
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    They'll never win, and they know that, which is why they're usually happy to just ignore/close all the threads that go over the same tired ground again and again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    I think it is quite pathetic and sad that despite Steve's post there are still some who want to keep perpetuating the same angry stance about the editor. When they release the editor they will find another reason to keep bashing DTG.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    2,575
    People speculate because of lack of information and/or silence. Not just for the fun of it.

    I have no doubts that it is still being worked on, but surely after months of silence we deserve something better than “we have nothing to tell you now”, which has been said on multiple occasions.

    Even boring, internal and not necessarily interesting updates would be better than sounding like a broken record?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  18. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    763
    Why ? What difference does it actually make to us if we get updates or not...it's not going to change their internal roadmap for the editor / affect the release date in any way. If they say the reason for the silence is due to not having much to say then so be it....they have no obligation to us by giving us a minute by minute situation report.

    We have had the initial stream from 12mths ago showing us what the editor will (roughly) look like...its features and limitations in terms of cooked content and we have had confirmation a number of times telling us it is still being worked on and not cancelled in any way.

    Just be happy with this and enjoy the content releases in the meantime...as I'm sure there will be plenty this year.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  19. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    In every regard, the editor is the absolute worst thing about TSW.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,572
    Likes Received:
    2,996
    What do you mean?
     
  21. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    681
    The lack of an editor, you mean.
     
  22. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    The editor, the lack of it, the lack of information about it, or the very concept of it. It doesn’t matter.

    It is all extremely tedious, and in my opinion the worst thing about TSW.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  23. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    I was asking for a live stream showing the closed beta version of the software. As of yet, we haven't seen anything other than the in-house version of the Editor. The in-house version of the Editor is what DTG use on a daily basis and it doesn't tackle any of the technical issues associated with the public Editor. The closed beta is, implied by DTG, the public build of the Editor, which means it should tackle the technical issues, so seeing it in a live stream would be proof of significant developement of the public build of the Editor.

    As for DTG's excuse that they want it to be perfect and bug free, why doesn't that philosphy apply to the base game, DLC or Mastery? Why was Mastery released in a broken state, yet the Editor has to be perfect? Why were NEC, RT and ECW released with broken signalling systems, yet the Editor has to be perfect? Why has the broken Class 47 on consoles not been fixed, yet the Editor has to be perfect? Striving for perfection is not consistent with DTG's modus operandi, so I'm sceptical of the validity of that excuse.
     
    • Like Like x 13
  24. 15 likes and 5 helpfuls for this post of TrainSim-Steve?
    The people are really satisfied with the crumbs!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    Yes many people want to see steam engines, an editor and bugs fixed but still enjoy and get plenty of hours in on TSW. Is that so bad?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  26. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    441
    I wouldn't even call it the crumbs, I'd say more like the hole in the polo mint!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. No, it's not that bad. But it could be sooo much better!
    However, the discussion focuses on another aspect. The question is not whether TSW is beautiful or not.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    That's not bad, true. But is that really good enough? Is that all there is?
    Well let me tell you something. This has goes more toward philosophy and worldview than specifically gaming, but there's no such thing as "good enough."
    No empire has ever been built and expanded by people who thought "it's good enough."
    Neither has it been defeated by people who deemed it "dead enough".
    People had never invented the steam engine, had oxcarts and slavery been seen as "good enough."
    Mankind hadn't gone to the Moon, wasn't probing Mars now, had using rockets only to throw bigger stones at the other guy been "good enough."

    And to re-enter the atmosphere back to topic:
    There would not be a TSW to begin with, had DTG and the community said, yeah, what we have with TS20 is good enough.

    In any effort you undertake, you will at one point reach a height where you have to admit "it's the best I can do now", and that's fair and good, and chances are whatever you just made is in fact, really, really good. But even then: Always, always, ALWAYS keep in your mind: It wasn't good enough.

    And on another note, mentioning bugfixes in the same breath: Yeah, your washing machine leaks and floods the kitchen everytime it is run, and there's poisonous smoke coming out of the vents, but yeah... it still does the laundry. Good enough. Right? Why bother the manufacturer to fix it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    Of come on, I have no problem using TSW so your analogy is completely false, if the washing machine was that bad you couldn't use it!

    I have said I would like see fixes and new features but I enjoy the sim and that is good enough for me, I can load it up and get a couple of hours of fun and relaxation from it which is enough for me to feel it is worthwhile investing in it, although of course I want to see more from it. However I don't see why you can't accept that and have to question it, I don't need to justify myself to you or quite frankly to be patronised!

    If it got to the point where I kept having to come on the forum complaining ad nauseam then I would soon uninstall it rather than let it make me bitter!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
    • Like Like x 5
  30. Tazz71go

    Tazz71go New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    24
    Steve: " The reason you've not heard anything is because there really isn't anything to tell you"

    If you have nothing to tell me let me think that there is nothing that you are doing for me.
    I follow your line of reasoning, I read some beautiful iconic posts in which the line presents itself, its characteristics and a piece of its history and that I will be able to relive those wonders with the next release. Yet the line is not ready, but you show it to me, you tell it to me and you try to transport me with the thought when I can do it. If your reasoning was linear you shouldn't say anything until the line is ready. Summarizing here there is no speculation, nobody wants to convince someone else of his thought and nobody earns a cent from the fact that the editor is not there , or there will come a day. here we stick to the pure and raw facts, and everything that is written, is nothing more than the fruit of the promises you made at the launch of TSW. Even in this your reasoning is flawed, if it was not ready why did you announce it? why did you show editor usage videos? you said download the unreal engine tools and get familiar, when you need the editor? the little information went on for a while and then? and then you are probably faced with an impasse and therefore absolute silence has fallen.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  31. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    If only there was some sort of downvote option, hey? Then we'd really know how people feel. :D
     
    • Like Like x 5
  32. Mr T

    Mr T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2018
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    335
    I'd be happy if there was just a simple 2d scenario creator / editor as I have no interest in creating routes but from your comments it doesn't sound like that's going to happen.

    Also, the editor is one facet but it raises another question, like: How will the user content be distributed? MattP mentioned in the editor stream he was hoping it would be using Steam Workshop but if that's the case the Xbox and PS lovers will be missing out. Instead will DTG be looking into a in-house / cross platform solution to try and keep them happy?
     
  33. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    2,575
    Am I right to say that the screenshots in the article and the live stream of the editor is DTG’s own in house version of the editor, and there has been no insight to what ‘our version’ will look like or how it’s been performing and progressing?

    Currently what the private beta testers are ‘supposed’ to be working on. No mention of their progress unsurprisingly...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  34. StevenJam

    StevenJam Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    51
    Matt has stated numerous times that there won't be many differences between their editor and ours. We may have some programs locked out such as Speed Tree or other third party plugins but the general feel of the editor is the same.
     
  35. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    We have only seen the in-house version.

    There are some fundemental differences between the in-house and public version. As I understand it the in-house Editor deals with uncooked content, so the source files are all there, that includes code, models, textures etc, DTG doesn't want anyone outside of DTG to have access to the source files. Now, if you want to create a service mode for a route, you'll need access to the source files, as the in-house Editor can't edit 'cooked' content, so the 'cooked' route isn't available to edit in the in-house Editor. This means for the public to use the Editor DTG need to find a way to modify the in-house Editor to allow it to edit 'cooked' content, the problem with that is that the modified Editor will be able to edit 'cooked' content, anyone's 'cooked' content. So someone could use the TSW Editor to steal other developers' content from other UE4 games. There is no way Unreal would permit that, so how can DTG overcome this problem? I don't believe they can, which is why I'm interested to see evidence that they have, as that evidence would prove it's possible to solve the problem.

    I think DTG didn't fully understand how UE4 worked when they started developing TSW, hence they didn't realise what a pain it would be to change the name from TS2prototype, which is why the game is still called TS2prototype. They may have left themselves in a position where it's not actually possible to create a public version of the Editor.

    This is why I put so much emphasis on wanting to see the 'public build' and not the 'in-house build.' As for the tools for route and rollingstock creation, there will be little to no difference. It's the 'cooked' content problem which is the key difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 5
  36. This statement by DTG, in hindsight, is the most irritating ever.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  37. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    342
    Sorry to interupt your rant, but nope, that's not the case. As MattP said a few times in his livestreams, cooked content is missing all the metadata that you would need to edit it. As i understood it, and i'm using UE4 since alot of years, you can open it, so let's say a route, to have it there to create maybe a scenario that depends on that opened cooked content. But you can't edit it and you definetly can't recook it.

    EDIT: Let's refine it. You maybe could edit streamed content like audio files or textures. But you can't edit blueprints without metadata. What DTG is trying to do is that the editor is able to read (not to edit) the cooked contnet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  38. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    So if I can bring cooked content into the TSW editor, then I could bring cooked content from other UE4 games? And Epic Games would permit that? That's my point, Epic won't allow DTG to distribute an Editor which can make use of other developers' cooked assets.
     
  39. Maybe DTG and his collaborators didn't know that the UE has these complexities?
    For example, I am only 1.65 cm tall. Never thought of playing basketball. I am aware of this.
     
  40. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    342
    A good point. But i guess that is not possible as long as the content uses a unique identfier, and as i know there is some sort if it in cooked content. Also the editor need to understand what you opened there. When opening content from a different game, the best that can happen is that the editor tells you that you can't open it, the worst is that it just crashes. Again, streamed and not protected content like textures and audio can be opened already in a way that you can later edit and reuse it. It's what happens right now in TSW with the repaints, changed audio and edited service modes. Where the edited service modes and the merged route experients are more a hack than a generally edit.

    For the overall discussion here i would say: just wait a bit more, have some more patience, the editor is there as Matt showed and said in his live streams. And i also want to say that when the editor is there, 99% of the demanding people here are closing it after less than 5 minutes because it is way to complicated :) TS1 editor is a kindergarten compared to UE4 editor.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  41. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    Very true. Somebody here on the forum once said we don't need an editor for TSW just like everyone and their grandma doesn't need a fully equipped car repair shop in their garage. Which is probably true.

    But as of now, if TSW were a car, it exists in a world where car repair shops don't exist at all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  42. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    342
    Honestly, a useless comparsion at least ^^
     
    • Like Like x 1
  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    2,032
    More hyperbole! Just like your washing machine comparison!
     
  44. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    Right now, I’d be happy that 3rd party ‘partners’ of DTG (AP, Just Trains, SSS, DT for example) have access to it, and that they can create content for purchase. It would be nice if the really talented people out there who build routes were, in time, able to access, and use, the editor.

    Aside from that, a basic tool that allowed scenario creation, proper reskinning and perhaps changes to timetable mode would actually probably do for the community as a whole. The number of people who actually want the editor to build freeware routes etc must be a minuscule number of the TSW player base (less than 1%?).
     
    • Like Like x 6
  45. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    Hyperbole is a perfectly valid rethorical strategy to bring across an argument. As long as the audience is able to identify it as such and deduce that it isn't meant in a literal sense.

    The repair shop analogy was not hyperbole however, the definition of that is a different one. An analogy, an allegory, a parable, a metaphor... these terms would be more fitting. All of those can be constructed in a hyperbolic way of course, but for the particular one in question, that wasn't the case.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  46. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    198
    I certainly don't need the editor, indeed, but I would very much like for all the wonderful creators out there to have it, so that we all may enjoy the ideas in their minds.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  47. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    901
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    Even an official version of what trainsim.cz has produced to allow all locomotives/DMUs/EMUs to be used across all routes would be a start. If a third party can do that with no access to the source code, I don't understand why DTG haven't done it themselves. Matt P mentioned something about it being difficult to create a GUI for it, which seems a pretty feeble excuse to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 6
  48. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    We might have to add a search bar to the loco selection screen! Yikes!
     
  49. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    342
    You don't need to understand all ;)
     
  50. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    I think DTG would do well to get a decent UI/UX person on board - the interface in general, and the way it works for elements like Mastery is pretty woeful at present. With a sim as complex as TSW, sorting out a decent GUI should be the amongst simplest of their tasks (although we thought that about being able to count stuff).
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page