Standard Route Features - Can We Set A List Up For Dtg

- If the game already has (appropriate) trains available from older DLCs to add to a new route’s timetable, they should almost certainly be utilized. (*LIRR, CSX on Trenton*)

 

Authentic and realistic. If a route isn’t spectacularly busy in real life, it needn’t be in game. However, if a route is spectacularly busy in real life, I do expect that in game. Every time. If lesser consoles can’t manage it, either a) reduce the number of services on those consoles or b) exclude those consoles from the release altogether.

 

Thanks for bringing up US diesel cabs, Matt.

• Functioning distance counter (both count-up and count-down-from-setting modes)
• Functioning airflow meter
• Functioning "banking comms" (or DP, in the fullness of time....)
• Functioning EOTD readouts
• Coupling to a rake does not pop the PCS

and above all

• working cab signaling/ATC/ACSES, except on vintage routes.

It's interesting that you mention accelerometers as a checklist feature, since to date no US loco has one (although in real life they all do)

 

So are you saying that if a route is not busy in real life, it shouldn't be made at all? There are certain routes out there that aren't busy but are scenic. Some smaller routes that have their own charm would be left out. I think diversity is more important than always having a super busy timetabled route.

 

Read again: “then it needn’t be busy in game” is what Mattty May was saying.

 

I’m sure I’ll have forgotten some things but hopefully this is along the lines of what you want Matt. I don’t expect perfection, but where a feature has appeared previously I don’t feel its unreasonable for it to be standard going forward. I’ll add to the list as things come to mind;

Routes

• Eye Adaption correctly set up. BCC and the 323 is far from correctly set up
• No rogue lighting at any point during the ‘tunnel’ experience
• If they have to be there, Collectibles must be actually obtainable and work
• Level Crossings should work. Cars should not pass through when down
• Signal systems should work as designed
• Station lighting must be connected to ambient light rather than time of day
• ALL lighting across the route; signals, street lights, station lights, car lights, yard lights, interior and exterior lights, loco/unit lights must be set up properly with the appropriate level of visibility, also tied to ambient light
• When there is precipitation platforms and other any other applicable surfaces should be wet
• Lifts should work as per the new feature. All of them, not just one per route
• Signals should not rely on the doors closing to go green
• Tutorials should actually be useful rather than copy and paste stop-go
• Timetables should be realistic as per the WTT for the relevant year as far as is possible
• Rush hour passengers should be standard on all routes, and ‘rush hour’ should actually be busy. Trains should not be empty unless appropriate. Passengers should not disembark en-masse at the first stop
• Where the player is likely to interact with them, buildings should have modelled interiors as we have seen in some routes. Particularly applicable to stations
• PIS should include off-route stations and reflect the correct routing of the train rather be limited by the route itself
• Again, if Mastery is a feature then it should be on all routes
• NPC’s must remain within the confines of the paved areas of the stations. No floating through the air or wandering on the tracks.

Locos / Units

• Safety systems should work prototypically
• Rain and wind sounds should be audible at the correct levels
• Sound mixing should be completed correctly. Example; air conditioning should not drown out all other noise and wipers should not be the only thing you hear at 100mph in a modern unit
• Cabs should be correctly occluded for both sound and light
• Where there is precipitation it should cause build up on the windscreen(s), no exceptions
• Where applicable, units such as GSM-R should not only be fitted but they should work. The same applies to TMS. Announcements, if included, should be automatic
• Where an ECS move is being conducted there should be no passengers on board. Again, no exceptions.
• Snow effects etc should be applied as designed
• Where applicable, guard buzzers should work and be operated by your guard. Ideally, where a guard is carried, they should be modelled at one of the doors or some other appropriate place
• Where a scenario takes you through a train setup via a series of triggers, then they should have you set the train up correctly, including lights, GSM-R etc
• PIS should be set by the player and not automatically displayed.
• All services & scenarios should have a standard 1m15s setup time, with longer if appropriate

Route Scenery

• Obvious faults in scenery should be rectified before release. That includes missing trackside scenery, overhead wires, water, bridges, tunnels etc
• Cable trunking, fencing and trackside clutter should be in place. This remains one of the standout features of GWE in my opinion.
• Buildings, roads etc should be correctly lit at all times of day. Cities should not be pitch black at night.
• Trackside workers, station staff, spotters etc should be liberally scattered throughout the route where appropriate
• Living world elements such as falling leaves, birds, moths etc should be included where appropriate. Example; in BCC there is a low adhesion site. It would have been awesome that if, on a windy, rainy Autumn day, the falling leaves from RSN featured on that stretch of track. Little things like that would be easy to do and add massively to the immersion.
• Platforms etc should not clip through any train
• Pack it in with the Easter Eggs. If they must have time spent on them, then do so when all of the above has been verified as complete

 

Unfortunately, when cut down to matters germane to this thread, this is what is left:

• When there is precipitation platforms and other any other applicable surfaces should be wet
• Lifts should work as per the new feature. All of them
• Signals should not rely on the doors closing to go green
• Rush hour passengers should be standard on all routes.... Trains should not be empty unless appropriate
• Where there is precipitation it should cause build up on the windscreen(s), no exceptions
• Where applicable, guard buzzers should work
• All services & scenarios should have a standard 1m15s setup time, with longer if appropriate

Everything else in the list is a matter of design choices, future development, or beta testing.

 

solicitr Just doing as Matt says. These are my expectations. 98% of them have been done on at least one occasion on at least one TSW DLC. Where applicable they should be standard on all DLC.

I’ll change it so the ones that are more ‘wishlist’ items are in italics. Having done that I make it 4 points have made the cut. The rest have appeared at least once already to my knowledge.

 

Then don't deliberately choose a route that is limited to one driveable train. That's what seems to be happening recently.

 

I think it all comes down to gameplay.

take the surf liner example. I would challenge that as a route pack choice because of the potential gameplay. There simply isn’t enough trains to operate.

now look at cane creek or somerset. Low volume routes but with gameplay fhat has its own charm. Somerset has an interesting and small operation because you’re doing all of it

cane creek is visually picturesque and the turns are interesting operations.

now take sand patch and horseshoe curve. There aren’t hundreds of trains but it’s fun to operate because the route has some challenge to it and you have at least one terminus in them. So not busy but has variety

then you take pick one of the German routes. Some of them are busier than others but the mixed variety of freight and different flavors of passenger make the route fun. It adds to the timetable. It gets busy but realistically busy.

That gameplay isn’t better or worse than sand patch or horseshoe curve it’s different. So you want to have a variety of gameplay experiences.

looking at the German routes some more the number of new trains are less. For the most part you can plug and play same equipment new route. If that’s all tsw did then it’s a problem. Again it’s variety

this is what makes Trenton disappointing. It’s a beautiful piece of software. It’s got some things that have to be sorted but it’s beautiful. The operations are varied and there is at least one terminus. There are new trains that are fun to drive.

Getting down to the checklist you factor in all of your bullet points into one thing. Do I feel like I’m working for this railraod if I go through a day in the life on the route.

in all of the above example and many others you have that authenticity. Somerset cane creek sand patch sehs chin pass I could go on and one it is an authentic 24 hour day in the life experience except for Trenton.

so as a checklist goes for a route pack there’s a lot of it should but doesn’t have to haves

- at least one new train
- at least one terminus for service variety
- a mix of traffic passenger / freight
- more than a single point to point ie I can go from a to b c or d is better than only from a to b

note busy not busy is not there.

Note route length is not there.

this is because of authenticity.

there is the have to have or must have
- it must be an authentic and realistic railroading experience
- that experience must be fun to play

this game isn’t its own IP are a fantasy in any form. If I’m going to make a train simulation then the gameplay has to be true to what I’m simulating.

that same premise Carrie’s to the rest of Matt’s checklist

Engines, rolling stock, station details, track plans, timetables at the macro and micro level need to be authentic to the prototype.

you look at most of the issues raised beyond the noise it’s all about the authenticity

this train doesn’t look right sound right or drive right. This station doesn’t really look like this. The railroad wouldn’t run this train on this line. And in the case of Trenton this timetable isn’t complete

 

It should be made sure that all AI trains display their destinations fully, as this has been missed in a lot of recent releases.

 

I’m the minority because I like the stop markers close to the red lights. You shouldn’t be barreling towards them to begin with. I take your word for it on other routes but on Trenton they are spot on to real life. It’s that little bit of authenticity that makes it great and doesn’t cross the gameplay line.

one of the bits of fun when I bought tsw2 was stopping a 50 car train west from Cumberland down a hill into the other end’s stopping point. There’s no margin for error and you really need to work it all out way ahead of time.

the first time I did that I knew I had train driving simulation gold.

I’ve blown a few of these like everyone else so I always make a save at a point where I know I can stop so I can do it again if I spad the end of the run.

I love finessing a stop in wurtzburg 10m from the red signal after running at 120kph for 171km. It’s so much fun

 

Could there at least consistently be rounded numbers as stopping times instead of going by the second?

This should use the diorama feature from Boston Sprinter.

 

Adjustable seats - at least in height. It has been done already (NTP). Many cabviews are off, either too high or too low. Unfortunately there's no cabcamera.bin for me to edit as in TSC...

 

I may be wrong, but I think I’m right in saying that everything I’ve listed that’s not a ‘wishlist’ item was done by DTG first, lifts being one of them (on the 80’s elf Christmas thing). DTG also modelled building interiors first on (I think) the Munich - Augsburg route at Munich station, then again on SEHS extended and the Rivet have done it on E2G. They look amazing and really add to the living world but are way too sporadic.

This is a great discussion and hopefully some good can come of it Discussions like this do give me hope that things will get better!

ps *another wishlist item if I may as it’s already been mentioned* I’d really love the ability to set some custom default camera positions (particularly external) that we can save for each loco / train, rather than have setting the cameras up each time form part of the set-up. Is that possible? I always put them in roughly the same place and it is a faff having to do it every single time I do anything in the game.

pps I’m not saying that everything I’ve listed isn’t sometimes or always included. For me it’s the lack of consistency that frustrates me most. You never know what you’re going to get, occasionally that’s a pleasant surprise but all too often it’s not.

 

I would prefer something more useful, like more game save slots, more rail traffic on routes than working lifts?

 

Updated timetables each year on all passenger routes would be nice (if there were changes to them in real life).

 

Working lifts was a side project by the special projects team, not the main art team at dtg. Even if it was a core feature, it would still be two different teams working on lifts and timetable. It's art vs gameplay

 

As Sifa and PZB share an Acknowledge button, it's really annoying to hear PZB ping off when you acknowledge Sifa.

This was fixed in RDA as there was some logic added where PZB didn't ping if the Sifa light was lit and there was nothing for it to do.

This seems to have been forgotten for SKW though as almost all the trains (apart from the BR403) ping both Sifa and PZB when I hit circle (on PS5), you can actually see both controls move. Pressing the Sifa pedle manually though just acknowledges Sifa as expected.

It seems a real step backwards for what is a great quality of life improvement and seems to be a simple fix (if I recall you mentioned on a stream for RDA that it's essentially an IF statement).

This lack of consistency makes the game very frustrating at times. I get that old content won't always have fixes ported back to them (for instsnce the RDA BR185.5 does have the fix but the RRO version doesn't, and I'm okay with this) but these fixes certainly should carry forward. I can't say if BBO has this fix or not as I don't own it.

While I'm on the topic of consistency, while testing I noticed that the Sifa pedle doesn't seem to be manually pressable on the BR403 and for some reason its called "Vigilance Pedle" on the BR182 Dispolok!

 

Making new locomotives available on AI or TT services on older maps is a must for me

HRR could have had alot of new ICE services with the ICE 3 and ICE 1 but we just don't have it which is a shame. There are alot more routes which could benefit from the ICE's and specifically the ICE 1 but it's only playable on 2 routes.

Subclasses and livery variants would be nice too to increase immersion and value

 

Distance counters in all US freight locos (where applicable)
Working incab signals where appropriate
Working banking Comms for all locos regardless if they need then on a specific route. Loss count the times when a 187 or a different version of the 185 has subbed in on a MSB banking service and had to abort.
DRA binded to rail driver for all UK trains
Standardised raildriver button binds across all trains, lost count of the times I've either turned the loco off/opened the MCB instead of acknowledging PZB
Working speed limiters/slow speed selectors, especially when there's a train wash or loading facility on the route. The javelin not having a working slow speed selector but having scenarios where you've got to go through the train wash is annoying to say the least!

 

1. Universal standardised NPC/passanger-boarding system (to finally have reason to drive passanger train . Rush Hour system everywhere!
2. Universal seat height adjustment in all cabins.
3. Universal and authentic DPU and braking system for freight trains
4. Realistic timetables.

 

That's a whole different kettle of fish. What you are asking for amounts to a timetable re-work- which is not a minor job at all.

 

Oh, this: covered track (i.e. inside roofed stations and tunnels) should have its 'slip index' set permanently to 0 whatever the weather. It's a bit ridiculous to have your 72 Tube Stock spinning its wheels trying to leave Piccadilly Circus, just because it's snowing on Cupid up above..

 

Thought I'd chip in.

Safety system tutorials. I've spent god knows how long looking at yt vids on AWS. An in game tutorial would be great!

Achievable timetables with setup times. Now, i know this has been done, but it isn't always the case. BCC timetable is spot on.

Rush hour passengers to be fully implented. Not much more to say on that lol.

That's all i got for now.

 

Uk: Guard buzzer in drivers cab mapped to b on the keyboard, some routes have (gwe) it others don't (bcc)

 

There's no dpu simulation in tsw yet so can't be a standard feature without it being created first and then see if it works properly before implementing it everywhere

 

Yes, same in tunnels. For example....you would think that when entering a tunnel in the rain or snow in Clinchfield that you would be able to get some better traction on the dry rails inside, but no... still struggle to maintain or build speed. Makes no sense to me. Good suggestion Solicitr.

 

How about authentic and busy, like NY Penn should be.

 

Route feature

I'd like to echo two things I've seen here, one is subjective but hopefully a qualitative question during development which is "does it feel like I work here". Very subjective based on the user but to me that links back to gameplay variety in route. Does it feel like you could do a day here .....

Secondly and I really like this but this is a question for scoping, aspirations vs dev time....."is the route a to b" or does it have "a to c" and "a via d" possible.

Upon reflection my most played routes are ones whereby my start and finish location are not always station a or b. Branch lines,, spurs, different yards all help this

 

Hi Matt,

Just regarding these interiors, they don’t have to be massively detailed or even accessible to be honest, but some methodology for not having stations look boarded up would be good. I guess that once you have a small to medium sized library of basically built interiors it wouldn’t be the end of the world if the majority of the generic ones were recycled from route to route. At the end of the day I see it as creating some more immersion and making the world feel more alive. I forgot also that a coffee shop was modelled by DTG at Ashford on the SEHS extension. I honestly believe this adds so much to the game it’s certainly worth considering.

On that note, could Parallax effect windows (as we’ve seen commonly used over the last 18 or so months in MSFS) perhaps be part of the solution? The way developers have used them to great effect in airport sceneries away from the more intricately modelled terminal interiors has been transformative.

Ultimately I would love to see everything on that list be standard fare. However, there are some things that for now are more crucial than others for me. Effects such as wet platforms, rain on windows, snow effects, audio mixing and lighting (in all it’s forms) are absolutely imperative to get right with every release. They should be the baseline from which everything else grows. Without consistency and quality in these areas TSW is not the game it should be.

 

Seeing some amazing suggestions in here!

I want to add one thing, it's very tiny (at least to me lol)

I'd love to ability for our character to sit on benches at the stations. Railfanning in this way, from this height, would be a neat/different experience as there is currently no option to crouch down in-game.

edit: apparently you can crouch, didn’t know, but my suggestion for sitting at station benches still stands

Hopefully, something like that can be implemented even if it's using the current *sit* animations that our characters can use for chairs inside the trains themselves.

 

It's not a minor job for sure but making routes future proof for stock that might not be in the game yet but could come in the future would go a long way. Not asking for all older routes to be re-timetabled but atleast make new routes able to have more layers post release

 

We finally have a suggestions thread in the Train Sim World Discussion sub forum.

 

Hi Matt,
from my point of view consistency is one of the most important things. Why do we have f.e. six Dostos in the game, which all have some differences? Just a small example: In the Dostos from Hamburg - Lübeck you need to switch the lights from rear lights to signal light before every journey, in those from f.e. Main Spessart Bahn they signal lights are turned on by default. The tooltips deffer in every Dosto a little bit, the sound mix is different, aso. Why aren't all vehicles technical the same, in term of code base? From my point of view this would avoid those bugs like the still not working SIFA in the 146 and the Dostos from SKW. All this redundancies cause so much trouble, the Dostos are just one small example of what I mean. Testing all this stuff must be a nightmare, and I bet the the beta testers don't have a proper overview of how an object which appears multiple times is really intended to work.
(As always I apologise for my very poor English!)

 

Because these predate TSW3 unhooking locos from routes, and were included in many earlier routes each with their own quirks which require major reworking of the routes and the locos to properly unify them.

 

I must admit that the Cathcart route is a route I keep going back to as I do like little networks.

I always thought some of the TSC routes like South London network or North London and Goblin with the WLL would be great in TSW.

 

Im pretty sure you can crouch in the game. I use it when coupling

 

Awesome, good to know!

 

Each dlc is treated as its own game and without having the assets, it wouldn't really work. It's something everyone would want, having 1 type of train, but from a dev point, it's a lot more complicated to only have 1 version at the moment as that would break the game

 

Thanks for the response Matt; it is appreciated. Clearly DTG aspire to create the most accurate locos possible (which I think is what you're getting at with the above quote), and this definitely shows in the end product where the latest DTG locos have set a really high bar.

Therefore is it purely a resource decision as to why the timetable sometimes doesn't meet the same level of realism as the locos?

For the checklist to only include 'must have a timetable' for me is a bit like saying the route 'must have a loco' - I think there are certainly objective measures by which a timetable can be judged (% of real services included, % of real 'layers' included etc when assessed against the real WTT), as well as fully objective checklist items (2 minute setup time, all intermediate stops being timed properly).

I know that it might come across as rivet-counting in the gameplay department but it's really frustrating that the quality of locos, scenery etc is so high almost across the board with all new releases but the timetable quality varies so widely. Most releases are hitting the mark to be fair but reviewing recent routes, Spirit of Steam and Trenton have both notably suffered (Edinburgh too).

PS. I'd be interested to know what other changes apart from livery, new moquette and possibly the removal of AWS are required for a BR Green 101 but I appreciate that falls well outside the bounds of this discussion.

 

To make it period suitable for the new steam route it would need to be unrefurbished. The lighting wouldn't be the flourescent type for example. I am not sure if on the 101's the actual trim inside the coaches was changed when they were refurbished.

The headcode box would have been in place under the middle front window. They only showed two characters.

This is my main concern too. Whilst all the fixes and upgrades to things like lighting are needed and bring a lot of improvements, for me the lack of new DLC for SOS and the incredibly poor timetable means it isn't a immersive experience, same for the starting point on this new route. An immersive timetable is as important to me if not more so than lovely looking lighting effects.

 

edit - post removed by myself as it was so far from the topic it was in a different postcode. I'll start a new thread to discuss instead.

 

Not from developer point, but from pure software design view. You need to consider all this side effects while concepting the basic code, and this is hard to do because you try to keep it simple in the first place. But with time and experience you concider problems nobody thought about. Some ideas which seemed to be smart turn into real nightmares. Problem with legacy code is to change such things later on, especially if the software is still growing. You never get the resources you would need to redo this. And the longer thoses redundencies are present and the more a software grows the more problems are caused by badly designed code or bad basic decisions. I handle these things in my daily job for years and sometimes it really drives me crazy. And from my experience you need to cut off this old things sometimes, because in the end it is better to redo it even if it is painful and cost intensive. But handling the legacy monsters is much more pain in the ass than such a decission.

 

Another one for the list:

- When taking over any active AI train, controls should be in a position that secures the train, ie. reverser neutral, brake set to full service.

Otherwise it's way too easy to take over a train and find it running away on a gradient, especially if you take over a train and then get up to go and perform other setting up tasks (eg. lights, safety systems) elsewhere. 323 suffers from this among a few others.