Peak forest is one of my favourite routes its just a little on the quiet side on the timetable. I love the sounds on the 4F the bark is great (Until it passes 30mph) and the route is very nice and scenic. For the most part I've been fine for gold medals (apart from 1 scenario). I think there are a few issues with hills as Vern says and the lighting but otherwise I like the route.
This is an interesting video from the footplate of a Duchess leaving Liverpool Lime St. I noticed particularly the Driver expertly catching a slip at 2:00, and the fireman calling out the signal aspects - which is no bad thing as the video really brings home how poor the Driver's view is on a large steam locomotive. Speed up the bank out of Lime St appears to be about 15mph, which is similar to what we've been achieving in our attempts with the Jubilee.
Its interesting you mention this! I was lucky enough to get a cab ride on a heritage railway on a standard 5 on my first turn as a cleaner (I suspect to get me hooked ) and I was really intrigued by the communication between the driver and fireman. But also staggered at how carefully and gently the driver managed to pull up to the coach set on the run around with no assistance from the platform. I had a perfect view on the drivers side and its just all boiler. Mental stuff to watch first hand. The whole ride just showed how much skill and experience is really needed to operate a steam engine safely and efficiently!
Just by chance I've come across this LMS Firing video which may also be of interest: Really highlights how badly the current fireman does.
So - Free Roam now allows us to attempt Liverpool to Crewe non-stop, with a Jubilee + 10. The real life schedule was 51 minutes. Who's up for the challenge?
After I get in tommorrow I have just over an hour before taking the mrs out and won't want to play ECML as I'll have been over that section of line enough by the end of the day and don't want to play any BR Blue routes as I will struggle to stop in time as I'll just want to carry on. But a 51+x minutes late run on SoS? I will feedback how I do tomorrow!
Excellent! Looking forward to hearing how you get on. I’m looking for a similar gap in the schedule - hopefully some time over the weekend.
A bit awkward perhaps that arguably the least knowledgable person in this thread reports back first, but I used the first hours of the weekend for this Liverpool - Crewe, non-stop, Jubilee + 10 Mk1s. Departure time 16:05, which gave me greens all the way in timetable freeroam mode. First of all, I have no idea how I managed this given my lack of experience. I don’t know if I did something wrong? Manual firing with dampers at 25%. Anyways, I departed Liverpool at 16:05, got greens all the way, and stopped at Crewe almost spot on at 16:54:30. The style I opted for was to never (ok, rarely) sacrifice boiler pressure. I always tried to maintain around 200psi. I accepted the slow speeds out of Liverpool and the speed loss up the gradient at Runcorn. In exchange, I opened her up once level. After the before-mentioned gradients, I let the boiler run down to around 120-140psi to gain speed quickly and then cut power way back (~15-20% cut off, 15% regulator) until I was back up to my desired 200psi and maintained 200. The last stretch down to Crewe after the fly-over junction was really fun. I found that lovely flow state in which the old girl just ran silky smooth. 200psi being steadily maintained by 20% cut off and 25% regulator did it for me. Rodney rests in Crewe station after a straining non-stop run from Liverpool Limestreet before continuing on.
Liverpool- Crewe non-stop: Having just completed the run I'll give a very quick run down. I departed Lime Street at 10:04 (though it was another 30 seconds of so before I had any significant movement without slip) and attacked the climb out of Edge hill with about 25% cut off and 40 on the regulator which got me to 21mph by the summit and down to 175PSI. Then from edge hill to Ditton I let the gradient do it's work with 17% cut off and 25 on the regulator and by 'eck did that work well getting me to 67mph before slowing for the 55 PSR at Ditton, though my over braking cost me about half a minute here, and back up to 200PSI, which further climbed to the max for the climb up to and through Runcorn which I passed through at about 36-38mph. I then attacked the 1:100 out of Runcorn which took me down to 30 by the end of that section and 26 by the summit speed wise and the pressure went down to about the 175 mark. I then reverted back to 17 on the cut off and 25 reg to let the gradient do it's magic and once again it delivered rocketing me up to 60mph before I gave a smidge of brakes for the 55 PSR at Weaver. From there I set the cut off at 18 and regulator at about 30-40% for the WCML section which took the speed to 63 mph and pressure down to 150PSI. I then braked for the 20 PSR into Crewe, admittedly slightly too early so lost and 30 seconds here too and glided into Crewe at 10:52:30 with (if my maths serves me right) 2 and a half minutes spare. So that leaves me at a run time of 48 minutes and 30 (ish) seconds which surprised me, so would certainly be interested to know how others get on with the 51 minute schedule.
Crewe-Liverpool Start 16:06 Crewe, Depart 16:10, Stop at Runcorn and Edge hill, Arrive at 16:58 ish. I start off normally (Cylinder Cocks open, Reverser at 75%, Regulator 18-30%) I soon reach 20 mph and ease off the power. I matained a speed of 45 MPH and 180 PSI Once I reached Hartford my reverser at 17% and regulator at 20% and 210 PSI I reached my top speed of 75 mph (Average of Jubilee top speeds) I clumbered into Runcorn because I braked too early I stop for 1 minute (I was 8 minutes late) Slowly but surely I made it down to Ditton at 53 mph Next was uphill, I begin to panic If I had enough pressure I would set the reverser at 25% and the regulator at 50% for about 30 seconds I made it to Mossley Hill (I was struck was a 1:113 incline at 58 mph bringing me to 45 mph) I made it to Edge Hill (regained 4 minutes) Shot off to Liverpool Lime Street reaching 30mph in an instant If I messed up this could fail me on this challenge drastically I was already panicking enough 16:48 came we stopped about 15 seconds after. We did it in 48 minutes and 15 seconds. Here are some pictures (I stopped round the end because I was too busy panicking). I love steam engines in black and white pictures I'm playing and old route. 45604 'Ceyon' I played hudless for more challenge and these are the only recordings I have
Was that with dampers at 25%? If so it seems you may have cracked the nut as that's a bloody good run with the stop!
Thank you matt#4801 It was stressful but saying that I do only run Spirit of Steam, Peack Forest, Northern Trans Pennine, WSR, MML and Tees Valley (on a normal day I do have other routes) If I play anything modern it's probably a Railtour
Saying that I think I had an advantage because I had downhill to and from Runcorn and Liverpool. You had it up from Liverpool and up to Runcorn
That's still good going though as I did the non stop to Liverpool in 47 minutes so only a minute faster than you without the stop and that was a fairly decent run if memory serves me right.
I'm going to try it Sunday and non-stop from Liverpool lime Street to Crewe. If I was you I would be 'chuffed' I'm sorry that was terrible
When I did it the only time Ceyon Blew off was on the descent to Runcorn and Liverpool and stationary at stations
Really interesting account, Matt. Looking back through the thread, I think 67mph before Ditton on the Up is a record. Braking for the PSRs is always tricky with a vacuum brake and long train. I’ve come to the conclusion that braking ‘early and light’ is better than ‘heavy and ‘late’. Even though this theoretically costs time, releasing a heavy brake at the right moment to hit the restriction at exactly the right speed is so difficult, any time gained in braking late tends to be lost in undershooting the target speed! Also interesting use of low regulator % to maintain boiler pressure, rather than reducing cut-off further. A good overall time too. Let’s see how others get on!
Great pictures, Edward. HUDless with steam is a real challenge - particularly as you can’t even see the speedometer in the same view as the road ahead. You must have to do a lot of moving of your ‘head’ to look around the cab to check gauges.
Has anyone tried feathering the combination break up and down repeatedly to have more control over their speed? Not sure if this approach uses more steam than normal braking but I find that on my normal runs it helps me to slow down for speed restrictions easier without having to use the ejectors to release. Ie: so up to around 40-50% for a second or two then back to release and repeat. Stops you getting a full brake application and still begins to slow you down. Noticed a driver did it on my cab ride on a heritage railway all be it from 25 but trainsimulator driver also mentioned they did it on his narrow gauge railway.
Worse thing is I play on Xbox One with the Classic Controls so I have to hold the stick down then go to interior cameras then click fireman's position to check the pressure. I got out my seat once and I went to check but the game bugged and I got sent to the first carriage because the fireman slung me there and I stopped the train using the brakes that the guards use and we stopped on a viaduct but I left and fell off the viaduct but when I got back up there was a invisible barrier so that's why I never get out my seat (this was in TSW3)
HUDless is the way to go, I do it too. You should try as well if you don’t. Everything feels much more alive when you’re only using what’s in the cab. And it’s surprisingly easy to estimate your speed once you’ve got some experience. I’d recommend investing in a cheap keyboard for your XBox (I’ve got one for my PS5 as well). That way, you can use the arrow keys to cycle through cameras. Also, I do on occasion stand up and walk through the cab as you tried. With a keyboard, you can use [CTRL]+[0] to teleport back in the cab should the physics kick you out. Well worth it for TSW.
I was thinking of buying one yesterday funny enough. Now that you have talked me into it I will try a cheap one and then if that breaks I will buy a more expensive one if I like it. It'll probably come December/January time because of the post now
With diesel and electric I drive HUDless on routes I know well, and on those I don't I just have distance to next speed restriction and distance to next station on the HUD (basically compensation for lack of route knowledge). However, that's because with diesel and electric my speed, brake pressure and amps (or equivalent) are visible in the cab, and there's no boiler pressure to worry about. With steam, I really want to keep a close eye on boiler pressure in particular, and I also need to see the speed at least on approach to speed restrictions. I've never liked having to move my head around using the mouse, so I use the HUD. The thing I'd really like is a 'steam HUD' with the critical gauges in the style of those on a steam loco. The modern HUD looks awful against the cab of a steam loco.
Liverpool - Crewe Non-Stop - 1st attempt We departed Lime Street at 11:04:41 and made a good start. 22% cut-off and 47% regulator gave impressive acceleration up the bank and we passed through Edge Hill at 23mph with boiler pressure still healthy. Once over the summit at Wavertree Junction the loco ran beautifully downgrade and it really felt as if we were in for an exceptional run. We touched 65mph through Allerton and, reaching 69mph approaching Halebank I closed the regulator to allow the boiler pressure to recover for the climb ahead. On the steep downgrade, however, we continued to gain speed and we touched 71mph before I applied the brake for Ditton Junction - my fastest speed at this point by a distance. Infuriatingly, I was too slow to release the brake approaching Ditton, and we passed over the junction at 50mph - 5mph lost at a critical point with the long climb ahead, and I paid for it. We passed through Runcorn at 11:23:31 (18 mins 50 secs from Lime St) but we were down to 35mph already and struggling. Much of the climb was at just 18% cut-off and 50% regulator and even at that the loco struggled to maintain boiler pressure. By the summit before Sutton Weaver we were down to a disappointing 23mph with boiler pressure low. After that, though, the loco again showed a free-running tendency on the downgrade and we quickly reached 52mph, at which point I closed the regulator. Even so, we continued to gather speed and touched 62mph before I braked for Weaver Junction. This time I got the braking spot on. We passed over the junction at 55mph with boiler pressure at 200 psi and we were in good shape. From that point on I set the cut-off to 16% and the regulator to 50% and we ran with speed in the high 50s for much of the way to Crewe, touching a maximum of 62mph in the dip after Hartford, and 60mph on the final flat section after Minshull Vernon. After that, with time in hand, I closed the regulator and we made a gentle approach to Crewe, arriving at 11:51:50 - a running time of 47 mins 9 secs against the 51 minute schedule. There's certainly more time to be had here, as this time was achieved despite messing up the braking at Ditton Junction and making a gentle approach to Crewe. Once again, I'm left to ponder whether there's some genuine variation between locos in TSW - or could it be that there's been some change to the physics for TSW4? This loco felt noticeably more free running on downhill sections than I'd previously experienced. I've never got close to 71mph before Ditton Junction on the Up before, and that was after the regulator had been closed for some time! If I'd kept it open I think I could have hit 75mph. I also seemed to gain more speed than usual after closing the regulator on the descent after Sutton Weaver. I'm looking forward to giving this another go, and seeing whether a different loco seems to perform differently on the same run.
The 'steam HUD' is not only just more complex but with modern diesels and electrics and steam railtours you have safety systems and they guide you and if you do them HUDless it is easier because you have more freedom and not monitor the signals. Northern Trans Pennine, Peak Forest and Spirit of Steam present a good challenge as the player you have to pay more attention. As me being weird I tried SoS HUDless first. I think the speedometer and pressure on the HUD for steam should be like that old-fashioned one that you find in steam cabs
A smashed record now, I do think there is some variation with the locos as it really wouldn't go any further that 67, I am going to do another run when I get in later with the same tactics to try and get some sort of comparison. You had a good run yourself, a very good run infact. Vacuum brakes are a pain in the rear for the PSRs and very hard to find that sweet spot which is small as a pin hole. You think you have mastered it with one restriction and then you end up mucking it up at the next! To all those going HUDless on steam you must be mad! PFR and SoS are the only two routes I have (and I have all the British routes) that I can't play HUDless so I may take a deep breath and have a go, though not on the run tonight as I think I need some practice first!
If you try do it HUDless I recommend either taking an express that's mainly greens or take a train in free roam or scenario planner 2.0 to see which signal is which. I just jumped right in HUDless without any plan. It turned out fine I mean I did get a gold medal
I don't have the signal HUD anyway, my main concerns are the pressure and the fact I can't judge the speed very well when playing the game.
That's the scariest bit no signals. I'm sorry though I thought it was the signals because that's the worst bit. I do struggle with the pressure so I look at the steam on the outside and if it is weak I don't have enough pressure and if it is strong I have stronger pressure. At least you can still say that you are better than most of the world's population because most of them wouldn't have a clue what they were doing.
Liverpool To Crewe Non-stop 45721 'Impregnable' Liverpool lime street (start 09:55, depart 10:00, Arrive 10:43) Cylinders cocks open and reverser at 75 [safety valve blowing] (my mistake) Liverpool to Edge hill (reached 16 mph ) Pass the sheds at about the same speed Edge hill to Mossley Hill (reached 50 mph) Hill to Speke (reached 63 mph) Passing Ditton and up to Runcorn at 78 mph After the Runcorn incline (45 mph) Down to Action Bridge (75 mph) Passing Hartford (75-78 mph) Safety Valve blew off Reached Crewe at 10:42:58 I had my reverser at 21 and regulator at 23% In total I travelled about 35 miles in 43 minutes If you're wondering how I checked the speed I use HUDless and then check the HUD for a couple seconds (only the speedo) Wrong Photo lol My Favorite
Liverpool- Crewe non-stop, Attempt 2: I did this in 45624 St Helena I departed Lime Street at 10:10 (though it was another 30 seconds of so before I had any significant movement without slip like before) and attacked the climb out of Edge hill with about 21% cut off and 45 on the regulator which got me to 22mph by the summit and down to 180PSI so a slightly better climb than before, so improvement already. Then from edge Hill to Ditton I went with the magic 17% cut off and a slightly higher 35 on the regulator and by 'eck that worked even better than before getting me to 73mph and wanting to go further unlike the loco in the previous run. Slowing for the 55 PSR at Ditton, I improved vastly on the braking hitting 55 at the start of the platform and only dropping to 53mph and the pressure were back up to 200PSI. The climb into Runcorn was a tough one taking me down to 39 mph and 200 PSI and so I then attacked the 1:100 out of Runcorn which took me down to 31mph by the end of that section and 26mph by the summit and the pressure went down to about the 160PSI mark. I then reverted back to the good old17 on the cut off and 30 on the regulator to let the gradient do it's stuff and once again it delivered rocketing me up to 60mph, as in the last run, before I gave a smidge of brakes for the 55 PSR at Weaver. From there I set the cut off at 19 and regulator at about 45% for the WCML section which took the speed to 63 mph (same as last time, but held it for much longer) and pressure down to 175PSI. I then braked for the 20 PSR into Crewe, which was another decent decline of speed compared to before and glided into Crewe at 10:56:30 on the dot with 4 and 1/2 minutes spare. So that leaves me at a run time of 46 minutes and 30 seconds which is an improvement on before and I think about the fastest I can get without speeding. How you managed some of those speeds and that timing Edward I don't know, though I do know you must have bent the limit by more than a couple of mph to do it!
Also I noticed that they fixed the tail lamp issue where both would be put on. I may have missed it being mention but glad it's fixed.
matt#4801 I think it's more realistic for the back of the train coupling to be set to the chain automatically it just makes it feel more realistic
Yes in real life the buckeyes at the back always used to be down. I noticed it when I took the screenshot and put it down after but couldn't be bothered taking another screenshot as the focus was the lamp!
Same mate sometimes we all can't be bothered to do somethings And thank you for the proper terminology because I forgot
Another good run, Matt. When you’re driving, where do you read the PSI figures from please? The HUDs a bit odd in only providing a number on the dial at the maximum boiler pressure, and to work out what the PSI is when it’s below that you have to count the dots down from there, which I find quite tricky, especially when boiler pressure is low and there’s a long way to count! Is that how you’re doing it, or is the PSI also displayed somewhere else?
matt#4801 Probably I just think I'm terrible at looking at the engine and hearing how fast it is going. I was approaching Ditton and I knew there was a 55 mph up to Runcorn and it felt a bit fast so I looked at the HUD for a second and I was going 78 mph (just tad over). I had a rubbish start so I might try for a third time and try to reach your speed of 22 mph. No train driver ever stayed to the speed restrictions (probably). As long as we got there in one piece we're fine. Rules were made to be broken lol
It is incredibly hard to gauge speed in game, 78mph though is impressive over that section as I got to 73 and it wanted to go further but I had to slow for Ditton. No I have been told some very rum stories about certain drivers and their driving back in the 50s and 60s and to those drivers it was more minimum speed, though it wasn't a large group and most stayed somewhat near what they should have been doing. They certainly wouldn't last long on today's railways some of them!
Bearing in mind that many steam locos didn’t have speedometers so the Drivers were only estimating the speed, possibly assisted by some rough calculations based on the sound of the rail joints. The Liverpool - Crewe route is particularly infuriating in having speed restrictions in the worst possible places, right at the bottom of each of the big climbs, where you would want to be going the fastest. The restrictions at Weaver Jn and Ditton Jn are exactly where you don’t want them, in both directions. The temptation to take a slightly ’broad’ interpretation of the limits at those locations must have been considerable.
