Steam - A Realistic Challenge

So, want a story?

Did a Liverpool to Crewe service with a Runcorn stop (11.30). A messy start, couldn't get the regulator and cut off right, but after a slow climb towards Edge Hill, eventually found myself with full reg at 45 cutoff. Once I reached the station before Mossley Hill (can't remember it's name), I cut the regulator by exactly half.

When I reached Mossley Hill, I turned it off and the cut off at around 15%. It stayed this way until I had to slow for the 55mph speed limit, which due to an error on my.part passed at 65mph, resulting in heavy braking and a slow climb towards Runcorn. Slid into Runcorn at around 30mph and stopped with the last few coaches hanging off the edge, arriving a whole 2 minutes late. Unfortunately, never got past this.

A fun experiment, I think I need to do some experimentation and fine tune my ascent out of Lime Street, as well as braking earlier for the 55mph limit at Ditton Junction, as they both cost me valuable time.

Not bad for a first run, though I'd say.

Edit: I also used the automatic fireman, didn't realise until it was too late

 

jack#9468 so, which way of driving do you find most reliable? Or is it to early to judge.

 

I think it is too early to judge the best way, need to do a little more experimenting getting out of Lime Street. I'll have another go this week (probably Friday or Saturday) and report my findings.

 

I tried Peak Forest last night, using full regulator and driving with the cut-off. With the regulator fully open, I had to reduce the cut-off to 12%(!) and boiler pressure was still dropping. Speeds were much lower than we’d achieved by balancing regulator and cut-off as described throughout this thread.

Unfortunately, full regulator doesn’t appear to be a technique which is efficient with the TSW Jubilee.

 

I wanted to try it with the Jubilee before I report back but since you already took care of that: I tried it on PFR with the 8F (you know me and my love for freight). On the flat, it sort of worked with the same 12% cut-off you also found. The speed was a fair bit lower though. Once we reached the climbs, it was completely hopeless. I would have needed to go below 12% cut-off to keep boiler pressure up but at that point the physics seemed to break completely. Anything below 12% cut-off just seems to break the simulation.

I’d hazard a guess that full regulator is not viable in TSW.

 

I believe it were the Midland, perhaps the Southern, who used this driving with the regulator method quite prominently, according to my father anyway, however it were not a case of giving the full beans, but instead setting it to say half open and then just working back the cut off appropriately. Obviously this would have taken a fair amount of experience and competent fireman to know exactly where to set the regulator to and when. I'll have to ask him when I next see him which of the Big Four it were, but am sure it were either the LMS or SR.

 

In the early days of TSW steam I used full regulator most of the time with the Jubilee and it worked OK, but I wasn’t limiting myself to 25% dampers then. With the dampers fully open, the loco produced so much steam that you could drive it pretty much any way you liked.

Now that we’ve found a way to limit the loco to producing a more realistic amount of steam, it’s forced us to find more efficient ways of using it - and that doesn’t appear to include running around with the regulator wide open!

 

Bishops Lydeard to Crowcombe - an 8F hill-climb

I picked up West Somerset Railway in the latest sale, to try the challenge set by Lamplight and a.paice (a bit of a team effort, I think - so thank you both). I enjoyed the run, but in terms of timing comparisons the low line speed (achievable for the vast majority of the run) meant that times felt very dependent on level of compliance with the speed restrictions - and comparisons were made particularly tricky by the fact that the Driver of the real-life run showed a fairly relaxed perspective on the line speed.

What I found very interesting, however, was the steep climbs, where the line speed became irrelevant and the low speeds made it possible to pick out individual mileposts and make very close comparisons between runs (including the very detailed logging of the real run in 1993).

I therefore thought it might be interesting to focus on just one climb, compare closely and see whether we can work out how to match the real thing.

The climb I chose was the initial climb out of Bishop's Lydeard to the summit at Crowcombe. This is given added interest by having a standing start, and by the fact that after Crowcombe there's a very long downhill section, so you don't need to worry about how much boiler pressure you have left at the summit - as long as you have enough to keep the brakes off, the safety valves will be lifting by the time you've completed the descent in any case, so no need to preserve steam on the climb.

So that's the challenge:

Bishop's Lydeard to Crowcombe with an 8F and 10 mk1s, without using more than 25% dampers, in 14mins 39secs or less.

The only speed restriction which affects the run is the one coming out of Bishop's Lydeard, and you're on your honour not to accelerate until the rear of the train is clear of it.

To help us along, I found a more detailed gradient profile of the climb. This profile is taken from the excellent wsr.org.uk site here. The profile on the site is of the whole line - I've only shown a small section of it, below.




The below table shows the one attempt I could find in this thread which included passing times for this section, which was by Lamplight. If there are others I've missed, please let me know and I'll add them to the table. As usual, the unmarked numbers shown are regulator/cut-off %.



I've also shown my two attempts so far. As you can see, we haven't managed to match 48773's original effort yet, but we're not too far off. It feels as if it's probably possible to do it, but we shouldn't be over-confident - on a run of less than 15 mins, a 20-30 second deficit is longer than you think (an improvement of about 3-4% still needed).

The attempt on which I came closest (my 2nd attempt) I took the approach of preserving steam for most of the climb, then giving it everything in the final stages. Interestingly, Lamplight had made significantly better time on the early stages of the climb, and although this resulted in lower speeds approaching the summit, our overall times were close - so more than one approach may prove successful here.

Give it a go, and it would be great to hear about how you get on. I'll add to the table as we go along. Good luck.

 

lcyrrjp, glad to see you on WSR - it really is an excellent route especially after the update. And it’s also good to see my beloved 8F get some more love in our thread. This climb up to Crowcombe is both interesting and challenging. If I recall correctly, it was the climb I used in an attempt to test the accuracy of our method for emulating an 8F’s performance. Probably another candidate I should have another go at with the new knowledge we’ve acquired in the meantime

As an unrelated update (just to make doubly sure that no one assumes the thread is dormant ); in the recent PlayStation sale, Birmingham Cross City was something like 60-70% off. So, might have picked up another toy Didn’t have a go yet - still rather busy in real life and I want to get to know the route before jumping in with steam. But watch this space.

 

Great to hear you’ve got Cross City, Lamplight. In my opinion it’s a well made, interesting and under-rated route. When you get to the stage of wanting to try it with steam, matching that real-life Birmingham - Bromsgrove run is a really satisfying challenge.

I’m glad you mentioned your trials to emulate the 8F’s performance - I was re-reading that post when writing up the above challenge. What particularly interests me about the climb to Crowcombe is that we’ve tended to feel that the 25% dampers rule causes both the Jubilee and the 8F to somewhat underperform at low speed. However, this one is the ultimate low-speed challenge (below 20mph throughout) and it looks as if it’s probably achievable once we refine our techniques. This further suggests the 25% dampers approach is a pretty good approximation - it just takes time to learn how to get the best from the locomotive.

 

I could just about squeeze a run in today. As a short aside, all of you were absolutely correct about BCC - the 323 is quite fun to drive for a modern unit and the route itself is beautiful. Particularly the scenery between Birmingham New Street and Kings Norton is enchanting.

Anyways, on to the run:

Formatting is the tried and true as explained above. The notes between station times and speeds give insight into what I was doing in the cab.

Having adhered to the 10mph restriction leaving Birmingham NS, my start felt very slow. I opened her up with a 22 cut-off, which I assumed would nicely use up steam but actually held pressure high with anaemic acceleration up the (admittedly) harsh gradient. That's why I opened up the regulator further than I initially settled on. I'm sure this start up to Five Ways can be done better with that experience having been gained.

Once we were onto the more gentle gradients past Five Ways, I fell back on my trusty 29/19 combination. The old girl's performance with this was not breathtaking on the gradients since this combination is more suited to the flat but it got the job done nonetheless and kept the pressure at a level I was comfortable with (usually somewhere between 200-210psi with occasional dips down to around 195psi depending on the geography).

I didn't want to take any chances with the pressure level on the gentle yet omnipresent gradients, so I kept her going like this until it was time to break for the curve and junction to Kings Norton. Having started braking a little late, I had to brake a bit more aggressively than I had hoped, which meant I lost a bit more speed than ideal but oh well.

Following Kings Norton, we continued our ascend on the gentle gradients but 29/19 was really not performing as well as I had hoped. Speed kept steady at around 40mph for the most part. As we neared Barnt Green, I knew that we would have to brake for the 30mph restriction through (the abandoned) Blackwell soon, so I decided to use up my steam for one last push. I wound the cut-off to 22 (another setting I tend to favour) and opened the regulator to 43 somewhere around 2 miles before Blackwell (if memory serves). This got me up to 50 mph and my kettle down to around 160psi. The descent down Lickey Incline lying before us meant that this pressure loss was no issue. The vacuum brakes proved rather uncooperative resulting in me going slightly too fast through Blackwell.

Now all that was left was letting the old girl run down Lickey and into Bromsgrove. I stopped there about a minute late, which I'm quite satisfied with for my first attempt. Once more though, I had some trouble with my braking (yes, yes, fine - I admit I was a little rusty). The Lickey Incline is no pushover. While the numbers alone clearly show that, it wasn't until I ran down with a rake of vacuum-braked mk1s that I truly felt it. I complied with the speed restriction just fine but actually stopping in Bromsgrove had me braking hard - really hard. At least no one on the train slept through the stop and missed it.

My closing thoughts on the run: This might just be one of my favourite runs so far - it's somewhat like a condensed version of SoS with the 'high'-speed climbing (compared to stuff like NTP or PFR). Combined with the beautiful scenery I mentioned, it's just very pleasing all around. In regard to timings - arriving somewhat on time is not that difficult though I assume a truly punctual arrival is far more challenging.

Now, why don't you have a look at what I brought with me

Spoiler: New additions to the collection

This time, I brought both black-and-white and colour pictures. I organised my run as a railtour in the regular timetable via free roam. With the early morning start, I thought it fitting to add some fog, which delivered striking colours.


Nova Scotia is waiting in Birmingham New Street for her scheduled departure with today's railtour. In the background awaits a local 323, which will form the regular service following us.


Nova Scotia makes her way along the canal in the early morning fog in golden sunlight.


Finally having picked up some speed, Nova Scotia thunders through University station.


The sun smiles on Nova Scotia as she crosses the canal.

 

Not a bad run mate, not a bad run at all. Like I think I said when I did my run, I think I just weren't aggressive enough out of New Street and were surprised by how much it could have been given.

I think that second screenshot is my favourite out of all of them, with it running parallel to the canal round that curve. Absolutely beautiful!

 

Great first attempt, Lamplight - a good deal quicker than my first go at it! As you say, that last minute or so is not easy to find on what is a relatively short run, but it's good fun trying. The speed at King's Norton is critical, as once clear of the PSR it's difficult to accelerate quickly on the rising gradient from there all the way to Blackwell. Looking at the times, I reckon being fractionally slow through there cost you nearly 30 seconds to Blackwell, so that would get you virtually on schedule.

I've added your times to the table, below.



Fantastic pictures. I actually like the colour ones the best in this case. The black and white ones I like when they can transport you right back to the days of steam, but on this route the OLE rather detracts from that.

The tint on the one by the canal is absolutely perfect, and the vegetation in the foreground works really well.

 

Just to note, I've edited the first post of this thread to make it more comprehensible for newcomers. It now includes a contents list providing links to all of the challenges (please let me know if I've missed any!) I'll keep it updated with any new challenges which are added.

I've also edited the thread title to reflect the fact that it is no longer just about 'Spirit of Steam'.

 

lcyrrjp, fantastic work on reformatting that first post that started us on this journey. I was playing around with the idea of doing something similar with a shared Google document (loosely inspired by how the Awesome Service Thread is being moderated) which could include challenge info but would mainly be a central place to look at and compare the performances reported back on in this thread. Unfortunately, real life is keeping me far busier than I had expected so it hasn't evolved past the idea stage yet. It's still something I'd like to pursue though

Thank you and you too, matt#4801. That canal picture turned out really good (not to toot my horn). Speaking of colours (or lack thereof), I have to admit that I'm a creature of habit. I started out with black-and-white for the exact reason you mention - immersion in the steam days - and now I do it as a matter of habit. Luckily though, I've also had another habit from day one in this thread I never mentioned (or rather admitted to): I take each and every shot in both colour and black-and-white since I can never decide which I prefer. For example:

Spoiler: coloured shots (+1 extra shot)

As you can see, these are the same shots in colour.




And here is an extra shot that had previously landed on the cutting room floor because of the 5 picture limit on the forums. I liked the composition with the sculpture over the walkway, the railtour and the boat but I don't think the lighting worked very well here.

I will say though, something in me finds the black-and-white picture of the modern 323 quite amusing

 

Real life gave me a bit of a breather today and since the BCC runs are so short, I got not only 1 but 2 runs in! When life gives you lemons...

Anyways, here we go. My first attempt today (from here on called run 2) had a great start but a terrible finish while my second attempt today (from here on called run 3) was satisfying throughout. This is my log:


Formatting is the tried and true as explained above. The notes between station times and speeds give insight into what I was doing in the cab.

Starting with run 2, you can see in the table that I went for a much more aggressive start once I had hit the 20mph restriction. To explain my progression in cut-off, I used 60/26 until the pressure gauge in the cab actually hit the red line at 225psi and then switched to 60/22. The higher cut-off setting got me up to 15mph quickly from there on the lower cut-off gave me decent acceleration to just below 20mph up until Five Ways. From there to Kings Norton, the run was uneventful. I merely played around with the regulator a lot more (instead of leaving it on 29/19) to fight the dips in the track and later on experimented a bit with the regulator/cut-off settings to see if I can squeeze more out of the old girl like that.

At Kings Norton, tragedy struck. In an attempt to preserve speed as long as possible before the curve, I left braking very late, which meant I had to break roughly resulting in me losing far too much speed. I tried to correct this by accelerating hard out of the curve but this had very little impact on my speed and left my kettle far too empty (down to 190-195psi before a long climb!). This is reflected in the lower speeds up to Barnt Green and resulted in the late arrival. Still, my success in the first half of the run gave me the confidence to have another go at it later today.

The first half of run 3 was much the same as run 2 with minor alterations. I adjusted my start to Five Ways a bit to preserve more steam by switching down to 40/22 and switched to 29/19 earlier - also to preserve steam. The latter was a bad idea though as I just lost speed for no benefit. The big change was Kings Norton.

Here, I completely switched strategy: instead of preserving speed and braking hard at the end, I eased off the regulator and just coasted up to the curve letting my speed drop naturally. While this meant less running at high speed, it gave me a much easier and better start from Kings Norton. As seen in the log, I maintained higher speeds along the entire climb to Barnt Green. However, I didn't make the most out of the steam I had left here. I tried using 40/22 in an effort to ration my steam supply but 40/22 had no notable benefit over 29/19 while wasting steam. When I finally switched to 60/26 to try and make at least a bit of use of it, my kettle pressure had already dropped too low. Since that debacle distracted me a bit, I was going slightly too fast through Blackwell.

Run 2 was a learning experience and run 3 made use of that to get to a rather timely arrival. I have no doubt that lcyrrjp and matt#4801 (both having reported back on runs on BCC) are aware of this already but for everyone's benefit, I've identified what I think are the key locations that I had to watch out for.

1. The start up to Five Ways: It's crucial to be aggressive here because it's a long stretch of climbing at low speeds. Don't be afraid to burn pressure here immediately since there's a completely flat section after that where you can regenerate a little bit.
2. The 40mph curve into Kings Norton: This is what makes or breaks runs, I think. It's vital to hit the curve at high speed and with no brakes applied. Not only is there a long climb after it but immediately through Kings Norton are unforgiving harsher gradients that will knacker you if you're not doing things optimally. The long climb afterwards needs every mph you can muster. Our NTP climbs showed the massive difference even a single mph has on these.
3. The stop at Bromsgrove: This came as a bit of a surprise to me but that last stop actually made a difference for me (or at least that was my feeling). Because you're coming down Lickey, I was inclined (no pun intended) to start braking harder for the stop early not trusting the slow vacuum brakes. On run 3 though, I trusted them more and braked later but not unreasonably hard (given the gradients).

I'm convinced there's still time to be had since my personal best run still has me messing up the final stretch of the Five Ways climb and the last push past Barnt Green in it. It's a very nice challenge. The run has stretches in which you can just sit back and watch the loco work as well as intervals that require your full, undivided attention

Spoiler: A picture is worth...

Only 2 pictures today and both are from run 2:

It's a cold and dreary morning as 45617 Mauritius waits to depart with her railtour.


A meeting of generations. 60 years are between the build dates of these two. How much the railway has changed in that time...

 

A great couple of runs, Lamplight, and really interesting to see how you’ve gained time progressively over your attempts, as you’ve learnt from each. Well done for the (virtually) right time arrival.

I found the same thing about Bromsgrove, that given the gradient the instinct is to brake very early, but in fact the deceleration is still pretty rapid once you get the brake in (particularly as the gradient flattens out close to the station) so you can brake later than you think.

I was thinking about what you said about having time to watch the loco work, and I think that’s one of the things I enjoy about steam, and also lesser-powered diesels such as the 31 - because they’re not straight up to line speed, you have significant sections where you can just enjoy observing the loco’s efforts and the passing scenery, rather than having to make constant control adjustments. Then you have those critical moments where you’ve got to act and get it dead right, or pay for it for the next several miles!

Great pictures - I particularly enjoyed the first one, finding the gap through New Street’s concrete jungle.

 

Bishops Lydeard to Crowcombe - 3rd attempt

I had another go at this 8F hill-climb today, trying to beat 48773's benchmark-setting 14m39s. My tactic was to maintain most of my boiler pressure until the gradient steepened to 1 in 81 for the last mile, and then give it everything.

We got moving from Bishop's Lydeard a few seconds before time, I quickly wound back the cut-off to avoid losing too much boiler pressure on the start, and complied carefully with the 10mph restriction, waiting for what seemed like an eternity for the last coach to pass through the points.

Finally, I was able to open up the regulator, and 48106 dug in. Initially I used a conservative 28% regulator and 20% cut-off, keeping the pressure needle right on the red line. Acceleration was slow initially, then the gentler gradient through Eastcombe Cutting allowed speed to increase up to 19mph past mp169 III - 2mph and 7 seconds slower than 48773, but I didn't panic and stuck to my plan.


After that the 1 in 80 took its toll, speed bleeding away and I edged the regulator open to 37% to arrest it, settling at 14mph. That started to chip away at the boiler pressure though, and we were down to 205psi by mp170 III, now 7 seconds down on 48773. The relative easing to 1 in 99 allowed speed to recover a little, to 19mph, and as the gradient steepened back to 1 in 81 I took that as my cue. I opened up regulator and cut-off to whatever it took to maintain speed - ultimately to 70% regulator and 30% cut-off - and boiler pressure plummeted, but we held our speed at 19mph all the way until the gradient levelled out approaching Crowcombe, where I eased back to comply with the 20mph PSR.



I knew it was tight, and was careful to note the time just as we passed the shelter on the platform: 10:19:31 - an overall time of 14m36s - and 3 seconds quicker than 48773's 1993 climb.



I enjoyed this short run - achieving target by a whisker, having found 22 seconds compared to my previous best. It's satisfying to know that the time of the real thing can be matched, with our self-imposed 25% dampers limit. I think there might be a little bit more to be had by opening up about quarter of a mile earlier, where the gradient slackens to 1 in 99, rather than where it steepens again to 1 in 81. That's going to leave us seriously low on pressure by the summit, but I reckon getting an extra 1-2 mph at the start of that final section might pay off, even if speed dips a little as we pass through Crowcombe due to loss of pressure.

 

That's a good idea. I'm happy to send you my spreadsheet if it helps. I'd guess it has on it about half of the runs recounted on this thread, but (as you'll have seen) I've changed the format over time, so to get the other runs onto it and make the format consistent would be a fairly hefty task.

I actually think your format (as shown on Post 366, above) of having the speed next to the passing time is probably better - it demonstrates that the speed recorded is at that point (not a maximum between there and the next passing point) then leaves plenty of space on the line below for cut-off, regulator and pressure where recorded.

As well as the yellowing 'paper' I've reverted to Gill Sans recently though, as it was the British Railways standard font, which feels appropriate.

Anyway, rambling aside, please let me know if it would be helpful for me to send you my spreadsheet.

 

An interesting run there James, I am hoping to get the time on Sunday to give this WSR challenge a crack, as I like the WSR, I like the 8f and I like these challenges, so it should be a very enjoyable 15 minutes or so.

Lovely screenshots as well, particularly that first one.

 

That’s one thing I loved about the MML run - I could just put her in 29/19 and enjoy experiencing her work for almost the entire run

Bloody good job! I didn’t think it could be done - not just in time but even beating the original! And as if that wasn’t enough, those screenshots… I’m absolutely in love with both. Allow me to tip my hat

I’d certainly appreciate it if you could send me your spreadsheet. It’d be a good starting point if nothing else. It is true that it’s a pretty significant undertaking: gathering all the data (+extracting data in the first place particularly for some of the earliest reports), formatting it consistently, and then sharing it in an easily accessible way. Still, I think it’d be worth it to invest that time. I am sorry though that I can’t make any promises as to when I can I really put some proper work into it (as I said, lots of real life stuff right now).

Glad that you enjoy my formatting choices It’s really just my take on the way the real steam loco performance logs on our website are done (for station, time, speed). I then later added the line in between to add what I was doing in between stations (cut-off, regulator, etc.). I thought it all fit together quite neatly that way.

Good call on the font! I know the fonts the old German Bundesbahn used but I wasn’t aware of which font was standard for BR.

 

The Birmingham New Street - Bromsgrove sheet is below, with Lamplight's two most recent runs added - including his splendid effort with 'Tonga'.

 

I have a bit of an awkward run to report back on. You see, last night, I had a few minutes spare so I figured I'd quickly have a shot at this - not a properly timed, carefully driven run but just a quick blast to get some pointers for a possible future attempt. As such, I did not start at the given time and took no notes but remembered my start time just for comparison's sake. Needless to say, I was shocked when I arrived in Crowcombe 14 minutes and 26 seconds later. This was one time I was really grateful for PlayStation's feature of saving up to an hour of gameplay after it had happened. Otherwise, I simply wouldn't have been able to give you much info about my run. Here we go - I converted my weird times to comparable times:

Also, since my notes are entirely based on my video I watched back, I also have brought a more detailed log. Since that is difficult to compare though, I'm only attaching it hidden below. It will, however, give you a much better idea of what I did.

Spoiler: Full Log

My overall driving style was akin to what we've sort of gravitated towards - save pressure as long as possible for a final push at the end. I'm purposefully not calling it my strategy but rather style since I didn't approach this run strategically. As mentioned above, it was supposed to be a casual run to see what's what.

I started with a cut-off of 22 since BCC had shown me that it works well for this sort of slow speed climbing right at the start. My changes in regulator were just my instinctual 'felt-right' responses to what my in-cab boiler pressure gauge was doing: 39 on the regulator gave me a strong start but after a while started slowly eating into my steam supply (we're still talking of pressure of 210-220psi) - I reduced to 20 on the regulator which built up pressure again but lost speed - I adjusted the regulator up to 24 since 20 seemed a bit too low - I increased the regulator to 32, which seemed to hold the pressure while giving good performance up the grade. As a side note, the specific regulator settings weren't carefully chosen but simply where a quick push on the controller landed me.

After reaching 32/22, I just watched the old lady work her way up the hill until the HUD warned me of Crowcombe's 20mph restriction coming up in 0.7 miles. At that point, I decided to let her loose and boy did she roar. I opened her up to a strong 56/26, which quickly got me up to 20mph despite the harsh gradient. From there on, the pressure loss in the boiler and the gradient seemed to exactly cancel each other out as she held 20mph even though the boiler was plummeting. I couldn't make out exact pressures in my video since I had only looked roughly at what the lady was doing but I started the last push somewhere around 220-225psi and at mp 171 3/4, it seemed to be somewhere around 170psi give or take. Finally, I eased off the regulator as we pulled into Crowcombe.

Of course, I wasn't surprised that the one time I chose not to take notes was the run when I really should have been taking notes. Still, thankfully Sony saved me. On the one hand, it's a bit odd perhaps for our thread (given how much we focus on micro-managing the locos to get them to perform the best they can) that this sort of runs happens exactly when I just go for it. On the other hand though, it did feel very nice to get this sort of result just by doing what feels right instead of carefully considering what exact combinations of cut-off and regulator have worked for me in the past.

Spoiler: As a final gift of this run...

This might just be me, but the dynamic weather (which I had left on since I didn't expect the run to go anywhere) coupled with an early start around 6 o'clock gave me a real gift here:

48123 works her way up the hill in the early morning fog. The firebox radiates light into the morning dew.
The fog together with the early morning colours gave everything this eerie look and atmosphere. A solemn steam loco working her way through that with her natural light sources and the steam mixing with the fog only added to it.

 

Hey guys, I wanna get into Steam again. I'm not too keen to operate exactly after timetable schedule but I wanna know, how do I need to set up the loco for it to behave the most realistic way? I've read front damper closed and rear one 50% at best. To set off, reverser to a max of 50% and when picking up speed going back to 25%?
What I don't know about steam engines anymore is; what do the ejectors do again?
Thanks for the answers

 

The ejectors create the vacuum in the brake system. The small ejector is usually kept on all the time to maintain the vacuum against the inevitable leaks. The large ejector is used to get the brakes off quickly and is then turned off as it uses a lot of steam.

 

The one account we've had of these locos in real life was 0% front damper and up to 50% on the back but how much that means with TSW's weird physics is still up for debate. What lcyrrjp found in testing (and what we've settled on for our challenges) is both dampers at 25% give a good approximation.
As far as cut-off goes, as a rough guide: start somewhere higher than 60% just to get the wheels rolling and then quickly switch down to somewhere around 17-22% on the flat. Obviously, it all depends on route geography and load.

 

Appreciate it

 

Outstanding climbing, Lamplight. Very rude of you to stroll up and go fastest at the first attempt (apparently without even trying), after all my lengthy travails!

It looks as if you managed to make a quick start, without killing the boiler pressure, and that set you up for a great climb. I’ll add your run to the table (hopefully tonight) and post it for comparison purposes.

Fantastic picture! I love the silhouettes which occur in that sort of light, and the mist really adds to it. Look at the way the light from the firebox catches the curved glass of the hand lamp on the tender, giving a pin-prick of light between the branches.

 

Very nice run Lamplight. Lovely screenshots, especially with the essence of fog. I must say I were felling rather down on this run, after having a right stinker on Sunday, which I will put in my diagram for the much better run I have just done now, though still room for improvement. I'll be back to report later this evening as I have got a meal with the mrs to go to shortly!

 

The updated table for Bishop's Lydeard to Crowcombe, with Lamplight's run added.

 

Terribly sorry! Next round is on me

Good catch! I didn’t even notice that. What a lovely detail.

Looking forward to that

 

8f 48125 + 10 MkIs Bishops Lydeard - Crowcombe Attempt 2

Right just to start with I will put my rather rudimentary (compared to yours) table as neither run were particularly record breaking:



And lets get into it, forgetting completely about the first run where I set myself up badly from the start of the climb which is what had the knock on effect.

With 48125 my departure from Bishops Lydeard were just about under control with a small amount of slip but that were squashed rather quickly. I made my way under the bridge, already at the 10mph PSR (which I did stick out to the end!), and the safeties blowing off for the last time in the run. After the last coach escaped the 10mph restriction I decided to go like nothing else initially adopting 42/22, then 39/22, before settling with 34/22, which got my speed up rather successfully to 18mph, with the next 3mph to 21mph being a bit of a struggle and using more pressure that hoped. I then past MP 169 3/4 with the pressure climbing up with a 30/22 arrangement, though speed began to flicker before dropping to 20mph about a trains length past the post and then we saw it continue to drop to as low as 14mph before me noticing pressure being at about 215 and so I changed to a 56/22 and this took us to 16mph and down to 180psi going past MP 170 3/4.

Not particularly much happened for the next mile apart from pressure continuing to drop and the speed reaching 17mph, before dropping with the pressure to 15mph and pressure at 160psi passing MP 171 3/4. Just past here I changed my regulator to 39 and cut off back to 19 to try and stop the pressure and speed dropping off, and although it dropped to 13 it recovered to 14 as I approached the platform and pressure increased to 170. At this point I wound the cut off back to 17, for not rational reason looking at it now, perhaps I just didn't like the number 19! I then recorded my time at Crowcombe before slamming the brakes on to stop a SPAD so I could get a screenshot there! A final run time of 14 minutes and 41 seconds; I have definitely got room for improvement.

Spoiler: I wonder what could be here?

 

There’s some good climbing in there, matt#4801

I find it quite interesting to compare our choices in regulator/cut-off. It would seem we both found something around 30/22 good for conservative climbing. Then though, correct me if I’m wrong, you chose a different approach to what lcyrrjp and I have been doing and used your steam for the entire climb instead of a last push at the end. I like that a different approach can yield good performance too seeing how your arrival time is essentially identical to our real log.

What I find far more interesting still are your speeds. Back when I first dug the 8F WSR tour out, I did so on a quest to see whether our 25% on both dampers setting actually gives the 8F appropriate performance. With the exception of mp 171 3/4, your speeds were very close to the real performance log, which reassures me. This is about your climb though so I’ll stop myself here before I get sidetracked again

That’s some beautiful camera work you’ve brought us - I can hardly decide where to look first! If I had to choose, I’d probably say I like the last three best with no. 4 as my favourite. I’m a sucker for this play with perspective and depth. The flowers provide a fantastic contrast.

 

Great stuff, Matt. I love your explosive starts, and the fact you manage to do it without killing the boiler pressure. When I attempt that approach, it's always a disaster! Going over the summit with 170psi feels as if you could have given it a bit more in the final half mile and gained a few more seconds, perhaps? I'm not sure whether it would have given you the 15 seconds to match Lamplight's time, but certainly 48773's original run is within grasping distance.

Brilliant pictures once again. I'm not absolutely sure that one from the sleeper end was taken from a position of safety, but we'll keep that to ourselves. It really brings out the power of the locomotive against the colours of DTG's rather attractive flora.

I've added both runs to the table, below.

 

Attention on Platform 1 - the New Timetable is in Effect for All Trains



lcyrrjp and I have been working on something in the background and it's finally ready to be shared. As previously teased, we proudly present to you the complete, collected spreadsheet for Steam - A Realistic Challenge.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OyqHC_XQz3S8AGTlDSLU-nIWsLd-QcS6icPQ8vegA5s/edit?usp=sharing

It is a shared online document containing every run submitted for the challenges in this thread and will continue to be maintained and updated as new runs and challenges are posted. To clarify, every posted run is included, even those that were never formatted as a log. The format used is inspired by my latest used for the WSR climb, which in turn takes inspiration from the real steam loco performance logs we've been using in the thread.

As you open it, you will be greeted with an overview table of contents as well as a short guide to reading the spreadsheet in case something isn't clear. There's no complex navigation involved, simple clicks on the highlighted box will take you directly to the desired spreadsheet as well as back to the overview. In addition, the appropriate thread posts for the challenges and all of the individual runs are also linked and accessible by simple clicking.

Many hours were invested in putting this together and it could not have happened without the thread created by and the data collected by lcyrrjp as well as each and every one of you who either submitted runs, took part in the discussion or simply enjoyed reading our efforts!

Here's to more steam runs

Cheers,
Lamplight

 

Very, very nice mate. I think this has given me a bit of inspiration to head back to SoS when I get a chance to see how I have improved from those first runs. This is an excellent spreadsheet though and will be very interesting to read through!

 

Incredible work, Lamplight. I'm rather flattered to be credited with having contributed to this as you did the vast majority of the work, but I won't complain! I've added a link to the spreadsheet and a short description of it to the first post of this thread, to make it as easy as possible for people to find.

My mug of tea is raised - to more steam runs!

 

Ask and I shall deliver

Just like matt#4801, my work on the spreadsheet has inspired me to return to SoS. Shockingly, I had to observe that there was a challenge I had never submitted a run to! Thus, I tackled the 11:40 Liverpool - Runcorn - Crewe run, which belongs to this challenge:

This is a direct link to the corresponding spreadsheet with my log.

We started out of Liverpool Lime Street. I have to say, I love the station and the long narrow corridor leading up to it. It really has this feeling of a proper railway terminus to me. Of course, the great echo chamber for the thundering steam locos fighting their way up the hill adds to it all. No great problem occurred and a trusty 40/22 carried me up the hill to Edge Hill (no pun intended).

Once the next small climb to Wavertree was behind us, the run down to Ditton was pleasant if uneventful. I put my trust in 29/19 and let it carry me and the old girl onwards. Just before Ditton, an impressive top speed of 72mph was reached. I only stayed there for a couple of seconds since I was breaking the 70mph speed limit, but the old girl was running so confidently and smoothly that I wanted to see if she'd go higher than 70. I quickly eased off the regulator and brought her down to 70 again before braking for Ditton. As you can see, I was still quite fast through Ditton but did slow down in time for the 55mph PSR.

If you put two and two together though, you will likely already expect that I braked a bit too hard and thus undershot the PSR. This cost me a bit of performance on the climb as I hit the bridge only at around 38mph while higher speeds have been reached here before. As I was stopping at Runcorn though, this minor mistake thankfully didn't have any knock-on effects.

The climb up to Sutton Weaver is interesting as it's neither as long nor as punishing as some of the other climbs we have to tackle in our runs. I rediscovered 20% cut-off for me, which I had taken note of when compiling the runs on NTP for the spreadsheet. Something between 40 and 60% regulator with 20% cut-off did the trick and with that, the hard part was over.

Now I only had to pass Weaver junction (where I undershot the PSR, again) and from there on completely trusted the old girl to know her way back to Crewe by herself. I simply gave her the old 29/19 and let her work her way up the shallow climbs. We stopped at Crewe roughly 52 and a half minutes after leaving Liverpool and were thus more than comfortably within the 55-minute schedule.

Spoiler: I sure had my camera with me...

There's something about a train leaving a terminus - particularly a steam-hauled train. 45678 'De Robeck' makes her way through the labyrinth of points that is Liverpool Lime Street.


If this isn't steampunk, then I don't know what is


45678 'De Robeck' pulls into Runcorn.


With the arduous climbs behind her, 45678 'De Robeck' thunders down to Weaver Junction.

 

There was I thinking the climb to Crowcombe couldn't be done and you all go and smash it!

It's nice as it confirms the 25% dampers creates a reasonably realistic simulation with the 8f as well as the Jubilee.

 

Amazing effort, glad to see this thread continue to grow.
Hopefully it will encourage others to have a crack and experience the fun to be had from steam on TSW despite the flawed simulation.

 

Really nice run, Lamplight. I don't think I've ever touched 72mph before Ditton Jn (actually, I can now check! According to the spreadsheet I haven't - although I did 71mph on the non-stop run once. I'd forgotten 70mph is actually the limit there, so it's a good thing I didn't go any faster!)

I love the pictures too. Particularly that first one leaving Lime St, and the last one leaning into the curve before Weaver Junction.

 

Chinley to Ambergate - The Up 'Palatine'

After Lamplight set us the challenge of the Down Palatine earlier in the thread, I had a look at the return run on the same date - 21st November 1958 - behind 5MT 44816, with 8 mark 1s. A 'Black 5' isn't quite the same as a Jubilee of course, but on lower speed routes like Peak Forest their running is comparable, with Jubilees only really gaining their edge on higher speed lines. In any case, we know that the Down Palatine had a Jubilee in charge, so we can be confident the Up run could equally well have done so, and that the schedule is appropriate for the class.

On the attached spreadsheet here I've shown the schedule and the 1958 run, as well as my first attempt.

The all-important gradient profile is here, taken from Ian Allan's 'Gradients of the British Mainline Railways':



The starting point, Chinley station, is precisely on the right-hand edge of the profile.

To set up the run I used timetable mode and spawned on foot at Chinley, then spawned a Jubilee with 10 fully loaded mk1s on the Up Main platform, before uncoupling and deleting the rear 2. I then used the map (press 9) to select a point on the Up Main beyond Ambergate as the destination. No waypoints are required. Spawning at 14:50 gave me enough time to do that and be ready for the 14:55 departure but it's quite tight, so spawn a bit earlier if you want to look around.

I made a right time departure, and the start could not be tougher - over 5 miles of 1 in 90/91 with virtually no respite (a very slight easing through Chapel-en-le-Frith is all you get). Once underway I brought the cut-off back quickly to maintain boiler pressure, settling on 34% regulator and 21% cut-off (34/21) which kept the needle close to the red line and got us up to 25mph through Chapel-en-le-Frith - already slower than the Black 5 - before the gradient pegged us back to 23mph by the time we entered Dove Holes Tunnel, and from there speed held. Only when I caught the first glimpse of the exit portal in the darkness did I open up the cut-off and regulator to use up the pressure, knowing it was not far to the summit - 69/24 at first and speed climbed to 26mph, but pressure fell quickly. As it did so I had to open up further - ultimately to 91/24 to prevent speed dropping away too much. By the summit we were back down to 23mph and just 125psi, but the hard work was done, and we accelerated quickly down the other side, touching 70mph before braking for Millers Dale Junction, and arriving in Millers Dale almost 3 minutes down.

The downhill running and the Millers Dale call had allowed pressure to fully recover, and we made a determined start, followed by more fast running on the falling gradients, with a maximum of 67mph achieved before Matlock (satisfyingly identical to 44816's maximum in 1958) by which point we'd recovered a few seconds, arriving 2 minutes 40 seconds late.

The section from Matlock to Ambergate is less steep a descent, and we had to work harder but none the less there was more fast running between the various PSRs, and by the time we rounded the curve through Ambergate we'd reduced the deficit to 2 minutes 25 seconds.

Can it be done? The initial climb to Peak Forest is going to be the big challenge. I didn't feel there was a huge amount more I could have done there, but experience suggests we'll find ways of scraping another one or two mph, and as we know on the long climbs that can represent a lot of time - 45 seconds to be found there perhaps? I could definitely have made faster approaches to Millers Dale, Matlock and the PSR at Ambergate - I reckon there's a minute to be had in the braking across those three locations. Is there another 45 seconds somewhere to achieve the right-time at Ambergate? I'm not sure - I'll be hugely impressed if someone can do it (while respecting the booked dwell times at Millers Dale and Matlock, of course).

I can certainly say that, as in the Down direction, as well as being challenging it's a beautiful and highly enjoyable run. A few photos to hopefully provide inspiration to give it a try:


Ready to depart Chinley, seen from the box.


Junction clear at Chapel


Over the summit, as a 4F awaits our passage to complete its shunt.

 

Not a bad run there mate, not a bad run at all. As per usual mate absolutely gorgeous screenshots, though that last one just has something about it which really makes it standout to me! I do agree there is something magical about kettles at big termini.

Ah lovely stuff! I were going to do a Peak Forest run, but went with a SOS one I hadn't done so will look forward to getting back on this route with the Jubilee. After reading through your run this does look as if it is going to be a real bugger to shave time off. That shot at Peak Forest with the 4f takes the win out of those three. A very nice setting!

 

Jubilee + 10MkIs Liverpool to Crewe with one stop. Attempt 1

I too, like Lamplight above, haven’t had a crack at this specific run before, but only the non stop version, so I also chose this one as the one to do and by ‘eck I do not know what happened!

So, I’ll make a start and if it is even half as good as my start in this run were that would be great, because I glided out of the platform on time with not a splash of wheel slip in sight getting to 15mph sharpish, changing to a 47reg/23cut off which worked a treat when the limit increased for the rest of the climb up to Edge hill getting me through the station just under four and a half minutes after departure at 23mph, though with boiler pressure at 185PSI, which prompted me to change to a 33/21 set up for the next climb the other side of Edge Hill. This did cause a slight drop in speed, but boiler pressure did recover, and I knew there were much more forgiving gradients ahead.

Once on the downhill I adjusted to 38/16, which actually brought the speed up, but more importantly the pressure, meaning I went through Mossely Hill at 55MPH with 200PSI. With this I adjusted to 43/17 as I wanted to see how far I could push the old girl on this section and by Allerton pressure were holding steady and the speed climbed to 64MPH. Then on the slight climb to Speke pressure dropped to 195PSI and the speed were staying stubbornly at 65MPH even with me pushing her. However, once going down the slope again it were like someone had stuck a rocket where the sun don’t shine as she climbed to 70MPH, which is the speed limit, but I might have accidentally let her reach 75MPH for a short period of time through Halebank before shutting off to get down for the 55 PSR at Ditton. I went through Ditton at 61MPH with 210PSI and the braking turned out to be sweet as a nut, hitting 55 on the ‘speedo’ as the limit commenced. I then attacked the climb up to the bridge using a 42/22 setup which didn’t do too badly and until I shut off to bring the speed down it held the speed relatively well dropping to 49MPH before me shutting it of causing a drop to 41MPH. I then, admittedly poorly, braked to come to a halt in Runcorn at 11:58.50.

As per one of my Peak forest runs the Mrs had wonderful timing, bringing me a cuppa tea and biscuits in as I stopped and so I had a sip of tea and a bite of a bourbon, knowing I had a challenging climb ahead. At 11:59.40 I told the old girl to get going, so she went out, shut the door, and left me to get this train up the hill ! Luckily the departure were at 11:59.50 and were smooth as an F1 tyre giving me a good chance at a half decent performance up the hill. Once at about 10-15MPH I settled for 37/22 for the rest of the climb which did me very nicely as I passed Halton Junction at 22MPH with 190PSI a smidge over four minutes after our Runcorn departure. I went over the summit at 25MPH and, after a burst of speed, settled for a gentle 33/16 which brought the pressure and speed up a treat on the downhill section. I passed Sutton Weaver box at 42 MPH and continued towards Weaver Junction, which would make, or break the run depending on my handling.

With this great deal of pressure resting on my shoulders I had another sip of tea and began my braking for the PSR. Thankfully I left the appalling show at Runcorn behind and, like at Ditton, hit 55 as the limit commenced, with the brakes fully released meaning it only flickered to 54 before I increased the regulator to 20% with 19% cut off putting it back to 55. Once on the mainline I gave her the beans initially going for 51/18 which took me up to 60MPH through Hartford and pressure down to 180PSI, but it were stable. Wanting that little bit extra out of her I amended myself to a 58/18 arrangement which took me to a peak of 65MPH before hitting the slight climb which were enough to reduce the speed to 62 passing through Winsford. From here on, depending on the gradient, speed ranged from 59MPH to a maximum of 62MPH. The last challenge would be my braking for Crewe which were acceptable and did the job, meaning I came to a halt just before the signal at 12:28.39, near enough six and a half minutes early, 48 minutes and 39 seconds after departure from Liverpool.

I think that this can very much be attributed to a few key points in the run which set me up well, those being, the initial Lime Street Climb, Ditton Braking, the Climb to Halton and the braking at Weaver. Also the way that Jubilee performed on the WCML were excellent and really does convince me there must be some sort of difference somewhere, as on the non stop runs I don’t think I got very far above 60, certainly not as early. Though of course they do say practice makes perfect and I suspect my Weaver braking on those runs were very dodgy!

I have to apologise Lamplight as I am just going to attach a table rather than a spreadsheet or owt as I haven’t quite got the technical ability to put something like you have together! I do hope it is formatted somewhat understandably.

Spoiler: I had some spare camera film laying about...

 

I've added your run to the spreadsheet. Apologies if I got anything wrong.

What an impressive run, matt#4801. You were consistently faster than me and it paid off by almost chopping a whopping 4 minutes off my run.

Possibly. Your speeds are very impressive. Admittedly, you used your pressure while I chose to keep boiler pressure as high as possible so my speeds being slower is not surprising. Still, getting up to 70 that fast on the way to Ditton and passing 60 on the way to Crewe is remarkable.

You had me there. Fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Amazing screenshots. The last two are my favourites with the interesting depth play. But there is something about the first one, too. It looks exactly like those pictures you'd find in railway books.

Lovely! Thanks for putting it together. I expected that the Up Palatine would be easy to match because of the falling gradients but I forgot the brutal climb Chinley - Peak Forest. I'm well aware of what a slog that is based on my 8F runs on PFR. I'm looking forward to trying my hand at this. Your run already sounds extremely well executed. It'll be a challenge to chip away more time.

Just like matt#4801, I have to tip my head for the 4F screenshot. Amazing composition!

 

Thanks mate, looks all good, and any mistake would likely me mine anyway!

Again thanks mate, like I say I am not sure what happened, but I do think it can be attributed to those key points I mention at the end. Oh and of course a shovelful of luck!

Perhaps that is it, as in I were happier to use more pressure and this extra push were just enough to get those few extra mph here and there which then gave a better platform for climbs. On the WCML section I did think I would have to change the way I were setup because of the drop off in pressure but as I say it stabilised at about the 180PSI mark.

Thanks mate, actually I like what you say there about the first one, I thought the shadow cutting over the tender made it look a bit shabby but looking at it like that I now rather like it!

 

A really enjoyable account of an outstanding run, Matt. Looking at the comparison on the spreadsheet really brings out how you were making big gains on previous efforts on nearly every section of the run.

Looking at speeds at Edge Hill as an example, 15-17mph has been the norm across the runs to date, until Lamplight went through at 20mph, then you went through at 23mph! Admittedly in the intervening time we’ve learnt a lot about the best way to climb with the Jubilee, but it’s still a dramatic improvement.

Then 75mph before Ditton Jn was great running on a section I always enjoy, working hard downgrade, rushing through Allerton, Speke and Halebank.

I’m very much in the ‘pro’ camp when it comes to the way the shadow cuts over the tender in the first shot - I think it looks great. I also enjoyed that last shot - very unusual with the car in the foreground, and it works really well.

 

I love the way you guys are having such fun driving the Jubilees. I hope the people at Dovetail responsible for ditching steam are reading your posts and feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves. To decide such a rewarding and challenging experience is not going to be a part of their "world " is unbelievable.

 

Quick Update on the Spreadsheet
Stopping runs now have a "Total Running Time" under the "Total Time" to help compare runs with differing stopping times between users.

 

New tales from the footplate, this time from my attempt on the Up Palatine.

This link will take you directly to the log of my run.

Straight off the bat, as I prepared 45655 'Keith' for the departure from Chinley in a few minutes' time, I knew that this would be a tough nut and it would be challenging to gain some seconds over the previous attempt by lcyrrjp. So, I gave it my best shot and thankfully, it paid off. Let me tell you a story...

Once the necessary shunting was completed to form an 8-coach train, the arduous climb to Peak Forest immediately started. I knew that I had to push not only the old girl but also my boundaries. My previous attempts on PFR had been less than favourable and thus I figured that my usual regulator and cut-off settings won't cut it. Reinvogareted by my recent success with 20% cut-off, which had proven itself on NTP, I put my mind to using it here. 20% cut-off showed interesting characteristics that I wasn't used to: It uses up steam pressure but only to some extent and incredibly slowly while also tolerating rather high regulator settings.

It did not disappoint. The old girl practically ran up the hill with a sustained climb speed of 25mph up to Dove Holes Tunnel while pressure in the kettle stayed above 205psi. The short breather at Chapel-en-le-Frith even got me up to 27mph. In the tunnel, the loss of pressure slowly began to have an effect with the climb slowing down to 24mph and lastly 23 just shortly before the end of the tunnel. Since the pressure had been stable at around 205psi though, I had plenty of steam for a final push once we left the tunnel and so gave the old girl the spurs.

Running downhill from Peak Forest was a nice change of pace. It had been a long time since I had seen this part of the route at speed. Thanks to the previous run, I knew that the timing for the run was tight all around. Therefore, I did not rest on my laurels but continued pummeling the loco on to get the most out of her. We reached an impressive 74mph before having to slow down for Peak Forest Junction and lastly Millers Dale.

Once more, I made plenty use of my steam to get up the short climb out of Millers Dale. The speed limits going downhill have a tendency to be in your way for the rest of the run. A long section of 60mph track leads us to Bakewell and an even lower restriction through Rowsley before we can finally open her up again for the last push to Matlock. Making use of my kettle full of steam, I just about touched 69mph before braking for the scheduled Matlock stop - a lengthy stop that would be appreciated on an uphill run but does little for us going downhill.

The last section down to Ambergate only has shallow falling gradients and even more speed restrictions so not much of interest happened. Once more, I made plenty of use of my steam to make an effort to stick closely to the speed limits. It was very nice to pull through Ambergate for once since you don't get to see it a lot when doing timetable runs.

All in all a good effort. I have to admit that I'm quite chuffed with my initial climb. I dreaded a much worse start to the run. Also, as a shimmer of hope for matching the timetable, I reckon there's more time to be saved yet. Apart from the initial climb, I did fumble the braking for speed limits a bit by leaving braking for late. With more experience or better handling than I brought to the table, that could well shave a few seconds off. Be that as it may, I'm more than satisfied with my first run.

Spoiler: A 'peak' through my camera...

A yard worker's perspective on the leaving Palatine.


What is it with railways and viaducts? It always feels special to see both in a shot. 45655 'Keith' is working hard on the climb.


With all signals 'off', the Palatine is free to thunder through the Peak District.


Trainspotting attracts people from all backgrounds.