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Stop Deleting Dlc Because Of Branding Issues.. And Instead...

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pookeyhead, Jul 10, 2020.

  1. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Basically.... why delete the Virgin Pendolino 390 because Virgin spazzed out? Just reskin it in all white (like it's actually been running for ages in real life now anyhow) and then people can still actually buy or download content that relies on it as an asset. I don't understand.. even some of DTG's OWN routes and scenarios rely on it. Why gimp your own DLC? It's baffling.

    Yes I know there's the older 390 in Inter City livery... but it's crap, and in no way solves the issue of masses of scenarios and routes needing the "other" one. Sometimes, you need an asset not to actually drive, but because so much else relies upon it. I've bought routes I've never, ever driven a train on simply because something else I DO want relies upon it. We've all done, and probably still do, do this.

    This is not just about the 390 either. The North Wales Coast route is another example. Instead of killing the route, and the masses of content that rely on it as an asset, just reskin the damned Voyager units in some non-branded livery instead of canning the entire damned thing, and killing a slew of other content along with it.

    Yes.... I'm probably one of many posts saying the same things, and no I didn't check if there was an existing thread on this because quite frankly, you deserve to be asked this repeatedly, over and over again until you capitulate. You know what? I'll keep asking too. I know you'll ignore it... but I'll keep asking any way because one day, perhaps when one needs to don a fur lined parker to go outside in Hell, you will see the sheer common sense in doing this.

    Has there every been an OFFICIAL explanation why they didn't do this, and instead just hosed masses of content? Did Virgin threaten to sue or something? It can't be that even the TRAINS themselves need to be removed, or I wouldn't still be able to buy the crappy 390.

    Arrrrgh!.. it boils my p**s.
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Your argument relies on the fact that trains do not have intellectual property holders... They do
    If the initial agreement between DTG and Virgin covered the pendo and the virgin logo, and there wasn't an agreement between DTG and whoever owns the rights to the pendo now then it is very likely that when the agreement between DTG and Virgin ended they wouldn't be able to use either representation
    Virgin are very stringent on such things...

    There are ways around this though, but they take time to iron out legal wranglings and wrinkles and I have it on authority that such wrangles ARE in process for the NWC, SWC and WM routes, though I don't know about the pendo specifically.

    It depends on what the legal agreement was, so yes it can be exactly that. A "fantasy 390" not based on material gained in contract can certainly be allowed when a "more real 390" based on in contract material may not be allowed
     
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  3. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    "I have it on authority that such wrangles ARE in process"

    So someone's talking to Avanti?
     
  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Read the whole quote, I mentioned routes not consists. Someone is talking to TfW
    I don't know about avanti or angel or fiat or alstom, all of which might also have a hand in such things
     
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  5. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    And another Newcomer spits his dummy out because he can not have something that has been withdrawn
     
  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Well... I've been here for getting on for two years, so I'm not sure what constitutes a newcomer around here :)

    It's not that I can't have something withdrawn, it's that content creators keep using resources I can't possibly get hold of in new, paid for content more than anything that's annoying. Any way... what's wrong with venting if you're annoyed? We all do it. Plus.. I see no reason to not keep some pressure on to re-release the withdrawn material sans red and black.
     
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  7. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    So it's the Content Creators Fault for using something that is not available.
    If somebody makes a Scenario that featured the Virgin Class 47 you can either swap the loco to something different or just ignore the Scenario - it is not the end of the world if you don't play that Scenario
    And if the Class 47 is Not the Player Train it won't make any difference if you use the Older version

    Peter
     
  8. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not everyone has your knowledge of expertise when it comes to swapping out locos?

    Withdrawing locos because of branding is possibly unavoidable in some cases, but withdrawing the route as a whole? Is that really necessary? Why not sell it at a cheaper price as a route only with no locos or unlicensed branded rolling stock? There may not be a massive rush of sales but some would buy it, especially some of the US routes which are heavily utilised for Workshop routes, including some of those showcased on Workshop Wednesday streams.
     
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  9. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Expertise not required - there are many videos
    You don't understand the way DTG does it's Add-ons

    [1] They do not release route without trains as a lot of people buy the Add-ons to run trains - If they purchased an un-branded North Wales Coast without any Scenarios then it would be useless unless they had the expertise to create their own or know where to find some.
    [2] They do not release Locos/Trains without with Scenarios so the normal user can run the train when they buy it.

    The amount of people who buy a train and complain there are no scenarios for it or not enough scenarios
    They don't wish to go on the Workshop to find a nice Scenario and then they don't own the stock or route for it

    DTG see you the Full Package of a Route with trains or a Train with Scenarios for a route
    I don't see that changing anytime soon.

    Peter
     
  10. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Have we met? Have we ever had a one to one discussion about anything? I don't believe we have. So, how can you say I don't understand anything?
    Surely, it would be better to make the route available under the TS Marketplace brand as a route only for those people who have the knowledge and expertise in such matters that they can utilize it in other content.

    I could probably clone an existing route I have and remove the locos and rolling stock in under an hour, so for a developer fluent in such matters it would take minutes.

    In my opinion it would be better to have some money coming in, from those who want a particular route for other projects or purposes rather than leave it on the digital shelf gathering dust earning nothing.
     
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  11. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Nah... Peter is always right.. LOL
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Or even better to have properly branded trains with properly branded stations... Even if Virgin weren't part of the contract for the route, Arriva routes are all now down also, so we're waiting on agreement with TfW so they can be rebranded and released
    And I have confirmation from TfW that discussions were in process before COVID...
    SO be patient
     
  13. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    That would be even better.
     
  14. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I did not say you did not understand anything
    I said "You don't understand the way DTG does it's Add-ons"
    If you did why would you expect them to release something which is opposite to what they have done so far?
    Just because people want something?

    There are a large number of people who buy this game and buy the Add-ons only released thru Steam/DTG

    They don't buy Third Party items, (Just Trains, AP) etc
    They Don't have Repaints

    So DTG release the North Wales Route, people buy it and and then find they have no trains, they have no scenarios.
    How is that going to go down with them?

    You get people today complaining "I bought this Loco and I can not find it to run"
    The usual reply is have you got the route the Scenarios are for? - Most times the answer is No.

    Peter
     
  15. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I am fully aware how DTG does it's add ons. So are you saying that the large number of people who only buy DTG add-ons are not intelligent enough to understand that if something was put up for sale and listed as "route only, no locomotives or rolling stock" they would still buy it? There are plenty of locos for sale without routes. So, by your line of thinking, there must be a large group of people who have purchased loads of loco only DLC's but haven't necessarily been intelligent enough to buy the routes that may require them to run.
     
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  16. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Please give me an example of a loco/train from DTG that does not include Any Scenarios
     
  17. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Who made mention of scenarios?

    If you read my post again, just the part you quoted you will see I said routes.

    Locos are sold without routes, which if you don't own the required route, the loco is unusable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You use the word possibly, so that means you don't know, like most of us don't know, so why not ask DTG, it may well be totally unavoidable not possibly, I certainly wouldn't want to get into a legal argument with VIrgin or Arriva? Routes generally also have branding on the stations too so would need altering, and, you can guarantee if they released the route without any stock or scenarios these pages would go into meltdown with incandescent rage, I don't think unbranded rolling stock would go down well either, I remember when ECMLS was released with an unbranded East Coast HST, there was much grumbling and that was five or six years go. Considering the me, me, me culture we seem to have now I suspect the gnashing of teeth would be far louder.

    Personally I would prefer routes to have unbranded signs and station fittings so they could fit different periods as in the WCML Over Shap. I would also prefer them to go further and release routes with BR liveried stock but I don't think that would be very popular.
     
  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If you think people are going to struggle as they would not know how to swap out stock from scenarios, they are going to have even more problems if DTG release routes without stock!
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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  21. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The routes we are discussing in this thread are routes which have been withdrawn but form a considerable part in some of the workshop content that is available. Including content that is being promoted in the Workshop Wednesday streams run by DTG.

    Releasing those routes without any locos or rolling stock for those people who wished to be able to make use of the workshop content would be as simple as downloading any other DLC. Once, it had been downloaded, the workshop content would recognise it as being present and would be able to run.

    We are not talking about releasing brand new routes without locos or rolling stock.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  22. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Somebody suggested doing the same thing with the Welsh Marshes Route when it was withdraw.

    It was pointed out that the revised version would have a different Route number to stop someone downloading and overwriting what they already owned and as such Scenarios made for the Original version, such as those on the Workshop and on other websites, would not work on the newer version.

    Peter
     
  23. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    That does seem like a fair and logical explanation.
     
  24. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    It's probably a bit annoying seeing reskins and scenarios that you can't join in on. Fine for us oldies but I do have sympathy for those who are missing out.
     
  25. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    When the Bossman Games/DTG Welsh Marshes Route is re released we will see if the route has a new ID or a different one
    And then DTG might do the North Wales Coast without the Virgin Branding
     
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  26. fabdiva

    fabdiva Active Member

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    It's a clone of the route, so existing workshop content will not work without being ported by the creators. How that will be handled for existing customers I have no idea - Maybe free to those who own - or a token amount via "complete my collection" if that is not possible?

    If they debrand using the same ID, it'll remove branding from existing customers who will understandably be upset.
     
  27. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Would existing customers be upset if it was just some signs that changed and everything else stayed the same?
     
  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not DTG's problem. If workshop content owners want to update or dual version that's up to them
     
  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Personally I would prefer unbranded signs as it would make using the route for BR days scenarios more convincing, although I know Newport has changed quite a lot. I, again on a personal level wouldn't be bothered about the stock as I use the AP versions.

    However I think there will be many users who like the fact the route is set in ATW days so I would imagine DTG would issue the route as a separate number, I think that would be the wise thing to do.

    New workshop scenarios will be made so it would only be like them releasing any new route in that respect.
     
  30. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Active Member

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    I'd happily take any route or rolling stock unbranded if it increased the overall choice of DLC, it would be a matter of days before someone in the community patched it with branding anyway.

    Hopefully when North Wales is re-released existing users will have the update for free but be able to keep the Virgin version.
     
  31. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Member

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    It is more than a bit annoying to have DLC removed for branding issues - and I speak as someone who has worked in that industry for a very long time. I get the issues with releasing routes debranded though, especially if particular favourite liveries would be affected.

    Personally, I'm stuck in the situation of not being able to purchase any DLC in my home country (Wales) - I ended up buying a license for TS2017 for £25 just to get a subset bit of the South Wales coastal route in desperation. I can live with white trains... the Class 801 in the ECML KGX to Peterborough route is white, so it's not like it's never been done.

    I suppose some here might think it's just punishment for not having discovered the joys of TS1 earlier, of course. Forced to drive English routes in penance ;)
     
  32. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    I may be mistaken, but from what I've seen based on various photos and videos, the route doesn't seem to have had any huge infrastructure upgrades since the early 90s (possibly except the Crewe area). This opens up for a fairly simple scenario: Bundle a 158 and 143, that they already have in Regional Railways livery, reskin the 47/8 and Mk2s from the Virgin pack in IC Swallow, get AP to supply a 150 in Regional Railways and 37 in Railfreight Triple Grey, and release the route in its late BR era guise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Or, speak to transport for Wales, get them to license the up to date liveries and logos (and TfW is a government body so they don't really have an argument against) and then roll things out in proper up to date liveries...
    And luckily enough that's what DTG are doing, according to TfW anyway
     
  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That would be great to see to be honest. They could use the Regional Railways 101 they have as they were common on the North Wales Coast line until around 2000 and they have the class 150/1 which they could reskin into Regional Railways North West so they wouldn't have to approach AP even. I have been making scenarios for it using Regional Railways stock anyway, I just ignore the signs. Shame there isn't a simple way of adding a plain black on white station sign to a route.

    They released the Liverpool to Manchester route with Regional Railways liveried stock and a Railfreight class 47 yet that has Liverpool South Parkway rather than Allerton and modern station signs so they have done so before. Same with WCML North, that is clearly set in Pendolino times yet came with a Intercity class 86 and stock.

    The worry with licencing as has been shown twice is that suddenly these agreements come to an end and the routes are withdrawn. With an "unbranded" route there is nothing to stop you running up to date liveries on it, it also fits in with older liveries so I would have thought, having more appeal.

    Some people seem to think that simmers are only interested in the current day! I like all trains but it is great recreate not only the trains of my youth but beyond that.
     
  35. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    And then in a few years when THOSE liveries change again it's the same all over...
     
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  36. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    I don't mind current day stuff, but the 1990-2005 (roughly) period seems woefully underrepresented, at least with regards to route+train packages.
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is, although 2005 still seems recent to me but those liveries are now part of history. I still think the original GNER blue livery was one of the best post privatisation liveries.

    It makes me laugh though that we got two 80's routes in a row and quite a few people threw their toys out of the pram. If you look at the make up of routes for TS1, fans of BR days have been left with hardly any realistic routes and having to run BR trains on post privatisation routes.
     
  38. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    There is the original ECML route from Kuju RS days, of course. And the original East Coast route from Creative Rail (or is that still "temporarily unavailable"?). Then there are the two Scottish Highland routes of course, and Kyle of Lochalsh (probably spelled that wrong..) I guess what's really lacking is a route to run 1970s/80s electric stuff on
     
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Exactly two Highland routes where you can run a very limited amount of traction and where you get lovely scenery but operationally not much of interest and variations of the same route, ECML, one of which is very old now. Plus the Woodhead which again is quite niche really.

    Yes an electric route on the WCML would be nice, we do have Preston to Carlisle which is a hybrid era route. Some 3rd rail Southern region would be good.

    But what about others, where are the diesel routes out of London termini. Where is a Western Region route to run blue Westerns, Warships etc. Where is the trans-Pennine route to run Peaks or a Cross Country route. Where are the rural Welsh routes or something like the Cumbrian coast. Where are the network of East Anglian fen lines where the 101 would be perfect. Where are the Eastern region electrics, the Midland region electrics. Other diesel hauled routes like Birmingham to Norwich or Cardiff to Portsmouth.

    There is so much missing, yet in the modern period a lot of gaps are filled.

    I know freeware has plugged some of these gaps but even then there are huge gaps in stock available.

    I just think in a ideal world we would have a much broader spectrum of periods. If you go to a model railway exhibition there generally are including many young people operating steam and BR period routes (from a UK point of view) so I think it is a mistake to suggest that users only want modern routes or console users only want modern routes. As much as I enjoy driving a Pendolino up the WCML or a Turbostar across rural Norfolk these are largely things you can experience in real life. Surely one of the wonderful features of train simulation is that you can recreate a 50's Summer Saturday in the west country, hauling a grimy coal train in the north east, piloting a 12 coach express over the hilly Settle to Carlisle or driving a diesel or electric in the 1970's? These are things now consigned to history and only available in books, on DVD, Youtube or your local model railway exhibitions.

    I thought TSW had started quite well with a preserved route, two BR routes and two post privatisation routes, yet there were quite a few complaints there were two many old routes. It will be interesting to see what the make up of routes looks like in another couple of years.
     
  40. tsarianchild

    tsarianchild Member

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    I presume DTG knows what sells and so they go where the money is.
     
  41. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sure that is true. But there is an odd pattern, five UK routes in to TSW and 40% were BR period after 12 years of Rail Simulator/Railworks/TS1 the percentage of BR routes is a lot smaller.

    As far as I can tell Riviera in the 50's and Derek Siddles Weardale route were extremely popular and still are.
     
  42. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I'm speculating here but the UK stock in TSW does look like older TS stock and the locos have close resemblance or a rehash of IHH content. It seems the emphasis in TSW is on routes and not stock.

    Not sure of the age demographic of train simmers but would imagine many are in the older age group who prefer content from the bad old days of BR and/or the glory days of steam. Perhaps the DTG strategy is to attract more newcomers to the sim by releasing, (rather boring) modern day routes.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, but as I said on a another top some of steam engine developers for TS1 are definitely younger than myself, although maybe preserved railways have an influence in that. I am also a huge fan of 50's steam, a period where I wasn't even a twinkle in my parents eyes! I have noticed at model railway exhibitions a lot of pre-2000's routes seem to be operated by younger people.

    I did read that the class 47 on NTP was the one being developed by Masterkey for TS1.
     
  44. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Yep.
    I believe the Class 158 had all of its scenarios removed for some reason.
    *whispers* Actually, it does, for Bath to Templecombe (for some reason!)
    Yes please. :love:
     
  45. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    My question was "Please give me an example of a loco/train from DTG"
    Yes, trains were released in the past without scenarios and in fictitious liveries
    Like the Class 390 in GNER, InterCity and LMS liveries
    but that was by RailSimulator
    https://store.steampowered.com/manual/208346

    Since they rebranded as DTG they have not done it.

    DTG won't make something just because people some want it
    If they can find out the information, if they have a Licence for it and it would be within the budget they might make it.

    Maybe DTG should do a grand questionnaire asking people which routes/trains they would like to be made?

    Peter
     
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    We're not talking about liveries, we're talking about licensing, so just as you can have FGW liveries under an agreed license and that could be LOVE packet, barbie, all green etc, the TfW agreement could be now and in the future.
    And it's unlikely that the local government agreements are going to revert to public ownership any time soon given the current state of the uk franchising system...
     
  47. tsarianchild

    tsarianchild Member

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    I am always astonished that the pleasure and satisfaction to be had from my other hobby of collecting unused airline sick bags isn't widely shared, but I've come to the realisation that what is fantastically popular to me isn't necessary popular to others.

    I suspect Weardale is less popular than you might think. It always seems to be deeply discounted in the Steam sales and as far as I know Mr Siddle hasn't been motivated to produce a follow up. If it covered him with gold I would expect to see more.
     
  48. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is an old route now. It was certainly popular at the time. Also it was clearly a labour of love for Derek Siddle I don't think he was motivated by making money from it, certainly that was the impression I got from his blog posts at the time.

    I am just countering the assertion that only modern period routes are popular. I have been around the hobby a long time and it is often clear which routes are popular.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  49. USRailFan

    USRailFan Member

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    Given the amount of them they keep churning out it seems that what's hot rite now are Swiss metre gauge...
     
  50. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I remember Derek Siddle saying that the Weardale would be a one-off from him.
     

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