Stricter Requirements For Second & Third Parties Needed

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jun 12, 2022.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that was a while ago when they were still saying no multiplayer, no player published copyrighted content - ie other things they've now changed
     
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  2. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    be nice to know what these licencing issues are tho?

    Do they need to pay someone every time they use a logo in their editor, pay to use the actual editor or what.

    if the editor needs to be payware to cover licence fees, then that's better than not having one at all?
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Fair point.
     
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  4. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    From what was said back then, it was more to do with Epic Games since DTG use the UE4 editor and not their own custom editor so DTG would have to get permission from Epic Games to basically allow players to use their editor.

    But Bus Simulator 21 has an official modkit (editor) so PC players can make their own buses and maps and that's using UE4. Epic hasn't sued stillalive studios for having a modkit so I do wonder then what the supposed licensing problem is then? Would epic really be upset if DTG allowed PC players to create their own trains for example? Would they be upset if DTG allowed PC players to create things related to Train Simulation only such as laying track, placing buildings, making bridges, placing vegetation, rivers, lights and making stations so I don't blame you for raising the question of what the actual licensing problem is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  5. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    might have to ask epic games about this?

    as you say, other games / simulators built using the unreal engine has editors.

    A while back i was reading things like 'the editor is very hard to use, has a steep learning curve' and so on.

    sure, i know some people will complain they expected to import a photo of a train, click a few buttons and have a fully 3D modeled train ready to release.

    But there will be plenty of people who would love the challenge of learning the editor, and with no budget constraints, no nagging from bean counters about making it pay, and as much time to work on their project as they want, trains and routes will be produced that will outshine the current DLC available.
     
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  6. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Rocks maybe. But DTG and their partners have yet to learn how to create realistic rivers, streams, lakes and seas in either of their sims.
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I don't think a steep learning curve shouldn't really matter since using any editor frankly may not be easy for some anyways. I'm sure some players would overcome the challenges of using a editor for tsw2
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Just look at the amazing water effects in Snowrunner, not to mention the dreaded mud. Not sure what game engine it uses but surely would have been a better choice for TSW.
     
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  9. I don't think its anything to do with epic games. You can download unreal engine from epic games and do what you want with it. Other games have editors as mentioned. I read a while ago it was to do with licensing. Train companies didn't want you messing about with their logos etc... not long after that statement dtg released the livery designer! Wouldn't this be in breach of licensing for the same reasons?

    There was a fella on here not long ago who made he's own editor or a hack to use dtg editor atleast. With a download link. Then not long after that the download was unavailable. I wonder if dtg or rivet games put a stop to it?

    If I had the editor I wouldn't come on here and compain about bugs. I would open the editor and fix them. Same with scenery, I would add to or change it myself.

    There's no editor coming anyway.
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Snowrunner uses the Havok engine
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If that was the case though, then none of the other train sims would have an user accessible route editor. Besides, I might want to cut my teeth on a fictional route or even a scaled up miniature or model railway. It doesn't have to be a branded modern main line. Rolling stock is possibly another matter, but then that never stopped people loading up a 3D editor and paint package and creating content for MSTS, Trainz and TSC.

    No, it's Dovetail being bloody minded and not wanting to take the chance that given the tools, the community might actually do a better job building routes than their in house or contracted personnel and ghastly Rivet!
     
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  12. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if that's correct, since Havok is mainly a physics engine. I could be wrong but assuming you got the information from Wikipedia, that might need fixing as well.
     
  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    From what I've found, it said Havoc. It also says Swarm Engine on google.
     
  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I was comparing TSC to TSW, and TSW is closer to reality even if it's nothing like reality
    But then this is a train simulator, not a surfing or sailing sim, so that's not so bad
     
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  15. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like something Yogi Berra might have said.

    I strongly disagree. All aspects of the environment are important to the immersive quality of a route. Maybe for those who drive only from the cab, water etc isn't important, but I often drive with the external cameras.

    Actually, I should modify my original statement. DTG has shown, on rare occasions, that it can portray water effectively - the Medway in SEHS is one isolated example if I recall correctly. But mostly rivers are just glass and the sea is ( as Michael Hooley once put it ) " like the frosted glass in my bathroom window. "
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
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  16. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Even though in detail inspection you can notice some low poly/2D stuff (railings on the bridge), the first impression is just simply CORRECT. And definitely proves the engine is more than capable.
     
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  17. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Even if you notice something is low poly, the fact it takes you time to notice (particularly when the scene is likely to be moving) demonstrates a better understanding and efficient use of your assets and the engine. The lighting in particular is carrying alot of the legwork here.

    It's just bizarre as there is a noticeable drop in quality from earlier routes like CSX and GWE. [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Meanwhile in Rivetland...
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Delta_Who The scenery in that shot honestly looks like a mobile game. Embarrassing isn't the word.
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Is this a route on a Xbox Series X? Looks like it's an android mobile game
     
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  21. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, I'm not sure. If it is, I'll retract/replace the image for something more comparable/accurate. But ummmm... the current screenshots I'm looking at are not too much better.
     
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  22. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    In terms of issues with licensing with the editor, I've also heard the issue is that if other people were to create a livery of a toc that dtg does not have the license of, then if dtg were to later have a licensing agreement with them, there is a greater chance of them saying no cuz it'll be dtg allowed the modders or creators to create the livery that dtg does not have the license of cuz they shared the editor and stuff. So basically better to play safe than to not get anything at all for dtg.
     
  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The long-lost GP40!
     
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  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    May it rest in peace :(
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For most things there is a "level of allowable suspension of disbelief" and even if the water looks a bit "glassy" sometimes, it's more dynamic than it is in TSC

    Only if you know little about the Medway.
    The Medway - at all points depicted in the game (ie the stretch between Strood and Rainham) is TIDAL. I've never seen the river "low" in game, seen the mudbanks on the Eastern side (which are very high, the council don't dredge there any more)
    So personally I would disagree about the Medway, but it is only about half a mile from where I sit typing this... I live in Gillingham
     
  26. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The same is true for the Mersey in SoS. It’s just mud a lot of the time in real life. But I wouldn’t expect any train simulator to simulate tides though and having water there is better than mud, even TSW water which isn’t the best.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I am not expecting "tidal simulator" any time soon (though they have simulated the moon's passage so it could be done...) but the comment was in reply to someone saying the Medway was a good depiction of water...
     
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  28. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    Proper modelling of "the sea" in general would be nice, currently it looks like a large lake, no serious waves at all. Tidal would be good too, especially for the Isle of Wight, where you travel along Ryde Pier, In real life the tide goes out quite a way, and the hovercraft goes across the sand to reach the terminal..
    It would also be good to have rivers at different heights, and a bit more turbulent, due to weather conditions (i.e. heavy rain, snow melt). we need some indication of flow around rocks and bridge pillars, etc.
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nice to have and maybe something that they can look at sometime, but I'm fairly happy with what we've got when there's so much more to be addressed by all the dev teams
     
  30. What I'm getting at is porting. Although gta v was ported, rockstar put a lot of time and effort into the pc version of the game, better textures new models etc...

    Unfortunately this is not the case with dtg! They devolop a game and port it to various platforms as is. So If they develop a game and run it on xbox/ps and there's running issues and texture quality and scenery density needs to be lowered, its done across all platforms! Thus forcing pc players to make do with inferior graphics.

    Saving the developers both time and money.

    Don't get me wrong the console has come a long way. But at the end of the day a console is a bunch of pc components packed into a small box with limitations because of cooling issues.
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've seen no evidence of this, indeed we've been told several times that DTG build on PC at full res and then spend time and effort making performance tweaks for the older machines. This would mean it takes more work to make an old-gen version rather than less as you state. Having had loads of reports of texture issues on consoles, when I check them out on my PC I see no evidence of them so I would say that textures on PC at least are "full res" rather than "low res"

    And this bit is patently false. The mainboards for a PS4 and xbox are bespoke to that version of the machine rather than being like a PC where there are multiple busses and ports which allow for extension etc. The limitations of a console are also not limited to the hardware, with the OSes having large differences. I believe one of the larger ones is in how "memory" is managed, especially cache, prefetch and virtual memory
     
  32. If this is the case then why does tsw look exactly the same on PC or console?

    And regardless of the main board a console still uses a cpu and gpu, ram and a hard drive. A operating system. All computer components. If I was to install Linux on my pc is it no longer a pc?

    This is the same case with snowrunner. Where ps3 users complained about the cooling fan sounding like a jet engine. So the devs played about a bit, removed some textures here and there and next thing pc players are complaining about texture quality being reduced.

    Like you say they make the game on the pc. So any modifications made to accommodate a console are being made on the pc, on the main version of the game. So regardless of what it's running on the changes run across all platforms.

    Look at the graphics settings in tsw. If it was native to pc there would be a hell of a lot more settings than what's in the menu.

    Let's say you have a rtx 3090 that can render at greater distances, add in more textures and scenery without compromising frame rates. Yet when you are playing tsw it don't do no better than a PlayStation. Unless you start messing with the ini file hidden away in the game folder. But why is it hidden there?
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From what I've seen it doesn't... I'll have a look for specific things when I get home, but on the ultra high settings I play on with my 7 year old PC I've never had a dodgy texture other than track when my PC is slowing down (and that's usually because of what I'm doing on my 2nd screen rather than the game itself)

    A PC is an "IBM compatible" personal computer which uses a specific set of hardware as a base. A Mac is NOT a PC, a console is not a PC, a washing machine is not... You get the idea.
    You switched from "PC" to "computer" and the former is a type of the latter. The latter encompasses things including an iphone, digital watch or desktop calculator. SO a console is a type of computer, and so is a PC, but a console doesn't use PC components.

    No disagreement there. In fact in TSW there was an issue where DTG didn't optimise the menu properly so the fans went into hyperdrive at the route selection screen. That ONLY applied to certain consoles though and never to PC (to my knowledge) so actually disproves your point

    No... last count there were seven or eight separate versions of the game depending on the hardware it was being put out for. You can see this most easily in the HST consists available on the HST. IN the PC version you get the full consist with 9 (I think) cars of the appropriate types. On a PS4 you only get 6 or seven, and limited to 1st class and standard, no half first half buffet etc. On the PS5 version of the DLC you get the full consist. Same with Xbox version DLC.
    This came to light when they move up to next gen consoles and had to produce different DLC versions to not blow the consoles out and given you have "inter-generational console releases" like the Xbox 1S which are more powerful than a base console but not as good as next gen, DTG addressed this with a different DLC version release. Been spoken about a few times on stream
    That the development is undertaken ON a PC and FOR a PC doesn't then mean that all following versions affect every revision of a DLC any more than changing a word document on a PC affects all revisions of it. You can just save them as a different filename

    Again, no... The thing with the console publishing licenses with Microsoft and Sony is that you cannot legitimately include a setting which will knowingly kill the console (ie cause a major crash). If DTG were to include full PC controls onto a console they'd run out of memory and fall over. This is because on console companies are expected to optimize properly so you don't end up in a memory loop and the whole system crashes and burns. On PC you have virtual and cache memory which will expand and contract to the operating system's requirements (or can be set manually) and consoles just don't do this in the same way (especially given the often paltry size of HDD or SSD in consoles)
    So the compromise is to reduce the quality on the console (saving disk space by having smaller asset file sizes as appropriate) and thus not overloading the memory constraints of the machine involved.
    In other words there's no point having 4k textures on a machine that's not capable of displaying 4k.
    There was a whole discussion on a roadmap a few months back about how PS4 and xbox (old) are basically running in "low quality" mode for PC, and that even next gen consoles are running at "high" rather than "ultra" but they were hoping to bring this up as optimization continued...

    On my PC game I CAN set my settings down to low level, or push them up to Ultra. That you cannot do this on a console means there's a difference in the core game engine between those two platforms. So it extends naturally to there being different DLC versions also...
     
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  34. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I’ve always said/thought this. They were definitely on to something when they released GWE. At the time it really did look like a next-gen simulator and it had that all important thing the game has lacked since, atmosphere.

    You may remember that it struggled a bit perf-wise at Paddington and Slough when first released, so DTG changed the whole route to baked lighting then announced the next DLC.

    Caveat at this point - I have no issue with the game on console.

    Then along came the console version and in all honesty, ever since that point the quality of the content has, with a few exceptions, got worse. There is no question that the PC version of the game has declined since initial release because of consoles. That is not to blame consoles, but to blame DTG’s one-size-fits-all approach. Whenever this criticism is levelled at DTG they always come back with ‘they’re not the same, the timetables on consoles are different etc’ but the difference between CSX and GWE and what came after is plain for all to see. The shadow draw and pop-in isn't anything like as noticeable on GWE as it is on latter routes. Rather than improve and refine the lighting we saw on GWE to start with, they’ve kept this baked lighting which has proven to be a disaster IMHO. The technique is well used, but DTG’s implementation of it leaves a lot to be desired.

    Had TSW improved on the quality and care that was shown in GWE we would be in a very different place now. DTG took the game in a different direction and spoilt something that could have been really awesome. It’s very sad…but they’ve clearly now gone so far down that road I think the situation is unrecoverable. TSW has just become another TSC - a bug filled mess with multiple iterations of the same content (primarily locos/rolling stock), all released and then forever put on sale with monotonous regularity. Unfortunately this time there is no community content, and no decent 3rd party content makers to dig them out of their self-created hole.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Question : What was the first DLC released AFTER GWE?
     
  36. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Rapid Transit wasn’t it? To be fair I don’t particularly remember that route suffering the pop-in and lighting issues that followed, but once it became apparent the PZB didn’t work at all I stopped playing it, which was a long time ago!
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And does that have the "noticeable drop in quality"?
     
  38. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Our posts crossed there so I’ve already answered. There was certainly less care went into it for the reasons I’ve alluded to above. I don’t think the route was as detailed or well built as GWE either. The real decline started with NEC (like the safety systems making the timetable a thing of fiction), which not only suffered from a terrible lack of attention to detail and care, but had terrible graphical pop-in and lighting problems.

    RSN was a slight return to form but again suffered really terrible pop-in and lighting deficiencies and it just got worse from there in my opinion. There have been brief glimpses of ‘good’ since then, but I’d say the overall trajectory has been downward, particularly on PC.
     
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  39. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    ^This
     
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  40. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    GWE always seemed like a ‘special case’ route, with added care and attention given to it. I think this is because it was a promo for the first ever passenger route for TSW.

    It’s just a shame most other routes aren’t given this much care or attention to detail. Quite a few routes suffer from ‘that’s all we had time for’ syndrome, which is quite evident in the (lack of) scenery in places.

    Now it seems to be ‘how fast can we churn out routes’ at the expense of route building quality.
     
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  41. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    There's a very good reason GWE was my most played route (until LGV, which was poorly made but the TGV itself was great) - it's aged better than pretty much every route since. Everything about the route (not necessarily the trains) looks better, and the route performs extremely well on console compared to others. NTP is a great route but was almost unplayable on PS4 with its lag spikes.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that what happened was that the routes you mentioned were developed when TSW was being developed, ie nobody in the community knew it was coming so nobody knew or had expectation of WHEN it was coming. The management therefore weren't expecting revenue or were pushing for timeframes over and above when the TSW release itself was happening.
    Since then there has been a continuous period of core and DLC development with no built in pause to allow for fixes and updates of existing DLC so everyone's been firefighting, whilst also developing core systems and new DLC (along with new toys) so there's been more things to develop, more things to fix, more things to test etc etc and because there's no break, it just builds up

    As opposed to TSC where things get released and often NOT fixed, in TSW there has at least been the expectation that development and fixing will occur. As an example I know of no DLC in TSC where someone's created a new timetable or scenarios and updated the DLC itself with it. They tend to be third party or workshop scenarios rather than 1st party creations.

    So for me the main answer is "slow down"...
     
  43. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure sure about this because prior to TSW2020 releasing across all formats there was very little TSW content available on PC to determine a downward spiral....and besides, if CSX & GWE were indeed the only worthwhile routes back in the day then that's still a 50% split of good / not so good routes even before things went into mass production mode.
    I personally don't think overall quality has got anything to do with the consoles because if it had and there was indeed a "one-size-fits-all" approach to releasing content then there wouldn't be any exceptions to the quality rule, everything would be equally underwhelming.

    The 'that's all we had time for' (as pointed out by Londonmidland) thing is probably a lot closer to the mark because there have been numerous occasions where Sam / Matt / Adam have mentioned on various streams that the quality of xx product is much improved because they've spent more time on it, so it does go a long way in explaining why the quality of routes differ so wildly.

    One thing I 100% agree with is that GWE should have been the benchmark for all future routes. DTG are clearly capable of creating an exceptional product so it does make you wonder why they never wanted to maintain a high level of pride in their work.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
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  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Money seems like a fair answer to be honest. DTG can make good content when they take their time. But since DTG just loves to keep churning out dlc after dlc, the quality of the products can be inconsistent. It's like playing a guessing game to figure out which dlc will have good quality and which won't.

    Consoles have nothing to do with this. It's dovetail themselves ultimately to decide how good a route can be quality wise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sam said somewhere or other that Sand Patch a/k/a CSX Heavy Haul took two years to develop- compare that to the current time frame of 5-6 months.
     
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  46. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The story goes that they realised they couldn't put that amount of detail into routes or take that long as it wouldn't make a good enough return on investment. But it is a real shame. CSX also has many little openings and interactive elements and I assumed that would be the norm but a lot of UK engines have inaccessible engine areas etc. They just cut back on things that would be nice but not necessary i.e. you only get the engine area if that is where the safety systems are. However its these little things which add up to really take it to the next level.
     
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  47. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Thats the thing...DTG CAN make good content. Sadly, i think we now have a problem with the whole code base of TSW2 so some thing might not change until we see TSW3 with a new engine. Like setting the season in Scenario Creator or having all the Sounds and not half of them MIA or the bad night lighting.

    But yes, they can make good content and recent routes seem to point generally into a positive direction.
     
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  48. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure people will chip in, but Rapid Transit (at the time) was the first route to be received somewhat negatively. Broken PZB, some weird lighting artefacts, initial poor timetable and some other rambles on the Talent 2. Also the honeymoon period for TSW was starting to wear off at this point.

    With that said, I consider RT today to be much more enjoyable (I just don't drive it as much as I prefer UK content). And the scenery was the last of the "tech-demo" routes of CSX, GWE and RT... so it looked pretty amazing (see any of the underground stations).
     
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  49. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Back on the topic of third parties, if there was any advice to Rivet. Go hire another 1-2 people and have your own "Preservation" team. People who are not beholden to any deadlines, and slowly invest in your TSW portfolio.

    IOW - Improve the sea texture, develop new art assets for the trees, extend the steam branch out and take advantage of the new steam-tech in simugraph. Then sell the steam engines as DLC. Work more on the tone map of the route. Maybe even consider the Class 484?

    Arosa - Invest in the timetable. Purchase a few low-resolution ortho-imagery and layer/project into the terrain. Lay more road decals and texture. Look into any method possible to expand the trees.

    WCL - Similar notes to IOW. Especially focus improving St Ives and beach areas.

    You've picked incredible... gorgeous routes. You should not be receiving this kind of critical reception, and there is alot of untapped potential!
     
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  50. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That should work and also they need to fix the DR V100 DB BR204 for Main Spessart Bahn transmission issue. IOW Class 484 was blurred out on a Luzern Sursee Rivet Games stream.
    How about Skyhook Games getting one for Cane Creek and Horseshoe curve. This should also expand to Just Trains if they make a route for TSW2.
     
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