Other The Big Br187 Bugs Topic

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by robinnieuwenhuis1, Oct 14, 2021.

  1. robinnieuwenhuis1

    robinnieuwenhuis1 Member

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    As I'm seeing different topics openend for the newly released BR 187, I created this one to collect all the known problems in one place to make an easy overview.
    Update 4-11-2021: The people of Skyhook are aware of the issues below and are actively looking for solutions to fix the bugs.

    Current Known problems reported:
    • ED-brake not working when applying train brake (On higher speeds and light to medium braking, locomotive brakes Electric Dynamic and wagons behind te loco with pneumatic) When applying some more/harder braking, locomotive will also add pneumatic braking to loco bogies above the dynamic braking (as otherwise braking speed in meters/second isnt enough) When standing almost still, electro dynamic braking is not possible anymore and locomotive brakes with air. All this is calculated by the computer on board as it requires an amount of braking meters/second depending on what the train brake position is set.
    • AFB not working correctly (AFB is applying full throttle regardless of throttle set percentage) (AFB power needs to be limited by throttle postion)
    • Main pipe pressure indicator in MFD screen is broken, not moving at all (this could maybe be a simple fix, as the UI pressure indicator is working)
    • Adhesion is totally off (but that seems to be a problem with the whole TSW), wheelslip almost never appears on a dry rail with such a modern vehicle. Traxxes suffer from wheelslips, but not like this heavy.
    • AFB just can´t manage the selected speed, it takes ages to reach it and maintains speed just a few km/h down of it.
    • "From Aachen to Ehrenfeld" scenario achievement not unlocking
    • Off/on position switches in engine room are incorrect (other way around)
    • MFD shows power is available while pantograph is on the roof and circuit breaker is closed. (The problem is you can close the circuit breaker while the pantographs are on the roof, in real life this would not work like this)
    • Changing P/G/R brake doesn't work in MFD screen (bug or missing feature?)
    • Signal lights still not in "A" configuration, and misplaced
    • Wrong sounds for: Traction, compressor, horn, braking, motor/traction cooling fans (This has been mentioned in the Twitch stream as a known problem, due to Covid-19 there was no availability to record the real thing, when this possibillity is there again, they are looking to update it)
    PZB/LZB Related:
    • PZB bug if loco is driven from CAB1. It only show blinking yellow 1000Hz/speed under 100km/h when reversing. Problem affects banker return services on MSB and others where you run loco in both directions (RSN, HBK).
    • LZB/PZB Release not working on LZB End.
    • LZB display not functioning (as already reported by Mr heff
    • PZB 70 is white when passing 1000hz magnet

    Fixed (as of 3rd of november):

    • Updated pantograph to limit interaction for a minimum of 10-seconds after it has been raised or lowered
    • Updated preset menu functionality
    • Fixed an issue whereby the D-pad could not correctly update the Reverser state when using Immersion controls
    • Updated the player’s driving position when seated in the driver’s seat
    • Updated various exterior details including decals, numbering, and the brightness of the forward headlights
    • Emergency braking position on brake lever should not be dependent on active/inactive brake cutout.

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  2. MrSouthernDriver

    MrSouthernDriver Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    WOW, it really is as bad as everyone is saying. Didn’t even finish the first service in it and got it refunded.

    Two deal breaker for me:

    - Sound
    - Side markings

    In the state it is in now, I (personally) would only take it for free, if only one of the above is fixed I’ll wait for 50% discount, if they fix both I’ll buy it for the full price.

    EDIT: I was thinking about the fact why the side markings are such a big deal for me and came to the conclusion that, in my eyes, it simply shows such a huge disrespect for the customer and the community, in getting such basics and easy spottable things wrong, that I am simply not willing to support a company like that. Don’t want to know how the rest of the research went, throughout the development… Anyway, just my thoughts
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  4. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this.
     
  5. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    This ALWAYS bothers me. The constant talk of photographic references being used to get the accuracy just right and then releasing something with incorrect detail is a contradiction.
     
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  6. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Proof of the middle MFD not showing safety systems while under LZB

    20211014154605_1.jpg

    Also AFB is working wrong. If AFB is set to a certain speed, it automatically applies full throttle power regardless of the throttle lever percentage. I dont know whether that is realistic but it doesnt feel like its right.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  7. Mr heff

    Mr heff Well-Known Member

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    How did you turn AFB on btw?
     
  8. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    No, it’s not…

    how is that supposed to work with wheel slip?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  9. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I activated AFB by just moving it to the target speed while being stopped.
    Also, right MFD Contrast is buggy:
    20211014160432_1.jpg

    LZB/PZB Release not working on LZB End. Also the parking brake activates itself automatically after e-brake

    next bug, PZB 70 is white when 1000hz

    20211014163036_1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  10. SwissLetsplay

    SwissLetsplay New Member

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    Es ist einfach eine Frechheit, was bei DTG abgeht.

    Wo sind die Qualitätskontrollen?
    Wo sind die Patches, auf die wir auch schon lange warten? (Rushhour-Abstürze!)

    Es ist einfach reinen Verarsche…man sieht einfach wie wenig Mühe sich gegeben wird…und ja, DTG geht es nur ums Geld…die einzige Hoffnung, die wir haben können, ist Train-SIM-Germany…mit der BR420, der Ludmilla und der Vossloh G6…
     
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  11. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    1. English please.
    2. Thats offtopic. Voice your opinion in a different part of the forums.
     
  12. TheNoGamer44

    TheNoGamer44 Well-Known Member

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    Das hat nichts mit DTG zu tun. Skyhook hat diesen DLC entwickelt. DTG ist nur der Publisher.
    ----
    DTG has nothing to do with this DLC. Skyhook developed the DLC and DTG just published it.
     
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  13. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Please stay on topic and report bugs qith the 187 here pls.
     
  14. SwissLetsplay

    SwissLetsplay New Member

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    Ja, aber dass den DLC niemand von DTG oder sonst wer überprüft…ich meine jeden sollte eigentlich auffallen, dass die Sounds nicht passen können…
     
  15. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Leute, lasst den Offtopic bitte. Hier werden Bugs reported.
     
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  16. robinnieuwenhuis1

    robinnieuwenhuis1 Member

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  17. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    Just push the AFB lever forward. No master switch. There's no point though, as AFB will apply full power and slip the wheels like there's no tomorrrow. Sad.

    Not sure if it's a bug but how do you turn off lights in the right MFD? I can only select between headlights and taillights for each cab, but not "off".

    Also, maybe not technically a bug but the context-sensitive circle key (Sifa/PZB) is not implemented here. I would really appreciate it if that could be added like on the new 185 from DRA.

    Another minor point: the 187 I'm driving right now is labelled 187 181 on the front and one side and 187 183 on the other side.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  18. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    The achievement for completing the scenario "From Aachen to Ehrenfeld" doesn't unlock on PC.
     
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  19. isaac47593

    isaac47593 Well-Known Member

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    IMO the sound is the big killer. It is really bad and idk if anyone else gets this or if its just because I’m on Xbox but it gets really glitchy at high speeds and sounds horrible. However, the loco is modelled wonderfully and aesthetically Skyhook have done the 187 justice, but this doesn’t excuse the god awful sounds and other numerous issues. Hopefully it gets fixed soon
     
  20. robinnieuwenhuis1

    robinnieuwenhuis1 Member

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    Added some issues reported on Steam store page
     
  21. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    is it prototypical to only activate afb from standing still? it's been acting funky if you meddle with the lever while moving,it doesn't activate it but your traction just drops as if set speed is 0 it seems
     
  22. pwarner893

    pwarner893 New Member

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    Along with what has already been said, I can't get the train to activate PZB mode O. PZB modes U and M are fine. Anyone else with this issue? I think ultimately I will request a refund. The whole train feels cheaply made even down to the animation of switching the LZB and PZB on in the motor room. Disappointing honestly.
     
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  23. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    PZB mode O should not work as it's a freight loco only. This is correct.

    To activate AFB while moving, throttle to off, AFB level to max then turn on AFB. Then reduce AFB to where you want it, then increase throttle.

    Yeah, the AFB is not working as it should.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  24. pwarner893

    pwarner893 New Member

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    Interesting. However, I am curious as to why it should be listed on the MFD if it is not to be run as a passenger train?
     
  25. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    No, this is not correct. A fright train can theoretical also run in "O". Also, the loco can drive on its own quite happily, using "O"
     
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  26. hells.high.lord666

    hells.high.lord666 Active Member

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    Well at least DTG are being consistent recently! While they may not have developed either of these two DLC's they will have reviewed them so in the last 4 releases we've had 3 with major issues and a broken achievement!
     
  27. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering, I've seen mentions that the power lever on the real thing is not from 0 to 100% of power, but acts like a manual lapped power handle (i.e. as long as you push it forward, you increase power, if you release it it will keep the set power). Can anyone knowledgeable confirm or deny this?
     
  28. robinnieuwenhuis1

    robinnieuwenhuis1 Member

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    The standard Traxxes are equipped with those brake (increase/decrease) handles for traction and braking yes. However, the Traxxes from DB are just like in real life somewhat different. So I believe the current setup is correct.
     
  29. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    is there a seperate switch for the afb? cause at standstill the lever activates the AFB,while moving it kills your traction but sets no speed and I can't find a seperate switch
     
  30. bobbobberdd

    bobbobberdd Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it's a bug. The 187 only has two options in the Scenario Planner. The locomotive and an approx. 320 mixed freight option.
     
  31. hawkeye

    hawkeye New Member

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    The same error. Passed three times, but failed. PC Steam
     
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  32. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if this is a BR187 bug, it's just how AFB is programmed in this game (the closer you are to Vsoll, the less power is applied), so it doesn't take much for AFB to be unable to reach a given speed. I'm not sure if it's 100% prototypical but I'm guessing it is. AFB is not all that smart, especially compared to ATO operations under ETCS

    The TSW model is correct, the locos that work like that are all the old ones based on the BR111 and BR120 architecture, I am not aware of any modern design that uses that control method
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  33. neal08ni

    neal08ni New Member

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    I had finished "From Aachen to Ehrenfeld" scenario but never received the achievement on Steam.
     
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  34. finn112_offical

    finn112_offical New Member

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    Bei den Spitzensignalen is es in echt die Möglichkeit sterben Spitzensignale über den Bildschirm zu deaktivieren [Nicht nur rot oder weiß]

    Das Modell hat vorne noch die Aufschrift Bombardier was im Game nicht vorhanden ist.
     
  35. Alexdertrainspotter

    Alexdertrainspotter New Member

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    no. If the loco drives without waggons, it has enough breakpower (GER: Bremshundertstel) to Drive in PZB Zugart O.
     
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  36. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Thats's odd, here in Italy light locos (or isolated as we call them) are designated on a lower category compared to passenger trains (so they have less brakes mass percentage - brh), the reason I was told was because: "locos by themselves don't have very good braking, and are designed to rely more on the wagon's brakes" and it makes sense, if the loco breaks too abruptly and with too much force it's not good.

    It's interesting to learn that in Germany light locos operate on the less restrictive category.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  37. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    This can very well happen, however, the PZB mode is a simple function of how much brh you have. Mode „O“ is automatically set when you enter a brh of above 111t Info the system.

    an example: A 185 has theoretical a max braked weight of about 145t in R+E, leading to about 172t brh. However, if you drive without unpowered vehicles, the E brake may not be calculated to the brh, hence you end up with a max braked weight of 126t, leading to 150t brh. You can see, you may be limited in max speed, however, you are well within your brh value for mode „O“

    If you are now limited to P brake mode, you are, in fact, reducing your brh further, to 107t and you would end up with mode „M“. This would be the situation you are referring to, I guess.

    I am not an expert on the 187, however, to my knowledge all TRAXX have the same braking equipment, hence you will have a high enough braked weight.
     
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This may be prototypical. AFB, AIUI, actually does run a few km/h below set speed; and a dedicated freight engine is geared for tractive effort, not acceleration.
     
  39. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I see, we use a rank system, the rank of the train is determined by the train's max speed, brh, and other statistics (for example the centrifugal acceleration in curves) and by documentation light engines are in the lowest rank (Rank A), regardless of everything else.

    Yes, the electric braking is not considered AFAIK, only the pneumatic one (so the "P" value, with electric braking I believe all modern locomotives can easily get to 100% or more).

    [Speculation] I believe this restriction comes from the older locos which hadn't that high of a Brh, and lacked or had very basic electric braking, and it just remained in place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  40. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the systems seem quite different, indeed! Interesting! Out of interest, do you have cargo trains going up to 140kmh? Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to buy locos which can run 140, if they can not even run that speed on its own?! After all, Vmax with “M” is limited to 125kmh…

    The reason why e brakes are not considered in this case is that they take such a high percentage in the overall braking when on its own. They can fail quite easily, ie when the main switch drops out, power fails, etc. Hence you only rely on pneumatics, as it is much more fail safe.
     
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  41. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    Same thing has happened to me, the steam achievement has not unlocked
     
  42. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    No, we haul the same wagons with the same speed limits, so the max speed of freight trains is never above 120km/h (so all freight is "Rank A", then the train's max speed is determined using tables similar to the ones posted by yourself for Germany - which have BrH on one axis and the line grade on the other axis, the max speed is either that result or the lowest rolling stock's max speed, whatever is lower).
    20211015_233900.jpg
    "Gradi di Frenatura della Linea" is basically a list which takes all of our lines, works out the pre-signal run and gradient and gets assigned a "category" between 1a, 1 and 9 (Ia, Iand IX). - 1a is just a less restrictive version of 1, don't know why they just didn't use between 1 and 10 (maybe 1a was needed after the system was in place for HS lines?)

    Light engines also have to use the same table

    I decided to get a bit deeper on our ranking system since it's pretty unique, and if you like this sort of thing you might find it interesting :)

    We than have Rank "B" and "C", but those are only for passenger services ("B" for pax trains with max speed >=140km/h, and "C" for passenger trains with max speed >=160km/h), then we have the "P" rank for tilting trains.

    I think the most peculiar fact is that in our lines each rank has a different speed limit (even on curves - not just train's max speed like for PZB modes - with only the tightest curves having equal speed limit for all ranks), so the max centrifugal acceleration (not taking into account superelevation) that each piece of rolling stock's suspension is rated for is taken into account (A: 0.6 m/s², B: 0.8 m/s², C: 1 m/s², P: 1.8m/s²) this system was created so theoretically different trains could run at their maximum speed even around curves (where for example some IC coaches that can take more lateral acceleration might have to slow down because of worse rolling stock running on the same line).

    Each piece of rolling stock has its rank, and the train rank is determined by the lowest rank present in the consist.

    In fact this is how speed limits are indicated here
    20211016_100644.jpg
    From Above (Rank A, B and C) - P ranks for tilting trains are not written on trackside signage to avoid excessive cluttering - but are present on our "buchfahrplan" for the driver to see.

    Sorry for the off topic, but hopefully you found that interesting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  43. robinnieuwenhuis1

    robinnieuwenhuis1 Member

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    Added "From Aachen to Ehrenfeld" scenario achievement not unlocking to the list
     
  44. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing this inside view! I believe it is similar handled in Switzerland, right? It’s interesting, there are similarities, obviously the physics are the same, hence it must be, but it is quite a different approach.

    The tilting stuff is quite interesting as well, but opens up a whole new topic, probably not well suited for this thread:D

    BTW, I can’t open your last attachment, it comes back with the error that it can not be found. Could you re-post it? I would be interested to see it.
     
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  45. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Don't know what happened it should work now
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  46. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Works now, thanks!

    Amazing that we managed to turn a br187 thread into something good:cool:
     
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  47. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    yeah it's the same in belgium like in italy,the one from my photo has a weight of 88 tonnes but has 124 brake tonnage,still when light speed is max 100km/h,traxxes here can run 120km/h light though. Our older loco (HLE27) weighs 85 tonnes but has only 88 brake tonnage,so his max V 100km/h makes more sense
     
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  48. Matto140

    Matto140 Well-Known Member

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    Can someone tell where/how to turn Banking COMM on BR 187?
    I didn't find that button, yet, and want to use it Spessart rampe?
     
  49. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    This is an interesting video from a German loco driver who also contributed to the development of the BR 187. I can only recommend that Skyhook view this. I concur with most of his statements (I think he mixes up Rivet and Skyhook in the beginning, but the statements about the loco are spot on).

    The video is in German but it can be viewed using Youtube's auto-translated subtitles.

    Definitely worth watching!

     
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  50. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing. Very interesting to hear some behind the scenes stuff.
     
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