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The Bnsf Situation?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Dec 1, 2020.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    A recent discussion in a different thread (ironically one about TGV) has brought back the topic of BNSF and their licensing policy. It is known that this company isn't providing licences outside the US (and Canada if I'm not mistaken), therefore their routes are not happening in TSW2.
    [​IMG]
    This also applies to all routes merged into what now is BNSF. It has however been discussed that the reason for this is actually the fact BNSF does not own right for their own trademark outside the US meaning people shouldn't in any way be punished for use of the logos outside the US (bear in mind I am no lawyer, so don't just run out and create your own railroad company with these logos in Asia :D ).

    This made me think what exactly is the problem with BNSF licensing. It has always been mentioned they only license products sold in the US... well... that's all they CAN license. Outside it supposedly can just be made no problem if this is true. Here's where I'd like to get someone from DTG to give us a more detailed insight than normally. Tell us what the situation is with these products. There are many amazing routes being simply ruled out because of the license problem, that according to this information might not even be a problem. Granted BNSF could just walk in saying "oh you want to sell this worldwide? No US license for you then" blocking probably the biggest customer base for such DLCs. That's why I'd like to know from someone close to the discussion. In the end, it would still be advertising even for them with very little effort, and many fans would be more than thrilled seeing Tehachapi or Racetrack in TSW.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I would suspect this is privileged information and not something that DTG can openly discuss in a public forum.
     
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  3. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    There isn't anything stopping DTG from bringing Tehachapi to any TS game though... as the route was owned by the Southern Pacific, now Union Pacific, BNSF only has trackage rights on the line and it shouldn't effect licensing should DTG want to make the route.
     
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  4. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Well damn... I checked and you're right... why did I think it's owned by BNSF with UP trackage rights? Well... let's replace Tehachapi with Marias Pass :D
     
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  5. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    I remember Marias pass on the original Microsoft train simulator, good times had on that, definitely loved the scenarios that lasted up to nearly 8 or more hours, never did complete them........
     
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  6. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    You could of confused it with Cajon Pass, which the ATSF originally owned but granted the UP trackage rights between Daggett and San Bernardino.
     
  7. saint.russian

    saint.russian Member

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    What I'm curious to know is... given that DTG already have licence for many great routes for TRAIN SIM, does the licence apply to THAT SPECIFIC GAME ONLY (TS)? or can it be used with TSW2 since it's still a product released by the same company (DTG)? ..... you know what... at this point I'm just pulling it out of my (where the sun won't shine) because I DON'T KNOW SQUAT and I'm not a lawyer LoL
     
  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And as I've stated previously, this licencing issue does not appear to affect other companies producing/selling train sim products...
     
  9. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    There is a nice BNSF loco on the Peninsula Corridor.
    Would be sweet to see it extracted and available for use elsewhere.
    (Thinks - Where's that Muff chap when you need him?)
     
  10. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    What loco?
     
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  11. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts exactly :o, can't wait for the reveal, my mind is ready to be blown clean out of my skull!! :cool:
     
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  12. BinaryRun

    BinaryRun Active Member

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    Depends on the license agreement, but generally a license is for one product only.
     
  13. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    It depends on what is in the agreement. Whether the license is for one game, one route, or one country. It is up to the owner what is done with their logo. DTG can either agree to the terms, or just not bother with it. The latter is what I think has happened in regards to the BNSF license.
     
  14. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Where did you see this, exactly?
     
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  15. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    If you saw one on the Peninsula Corridor it's likely someone's Livery creation and they chose to put it on that route, but sadly due to licensing issues it will not be to be shared to anyone.
     
  16. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    There was a very nice BNSF AC4400CW mod for TSW1 that I took along SFJ a few times. Perhaps others got the same idea and there are images of a BNSF locomotive floating around the internet. :)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. pugilist3

    pugilist3 Member

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    I have this repaint as well and wish someone would convert it to TSW2.
     
  18. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I find it interesting that whoever painted that went with the H3 logos and not the H2 ones (As I don't think BNSF has painted any of their AC44's into H3 colors yet)
     
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  19. james.hunt64

    james.hunt64 New Member

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    Hi Vern,
    I'll say what DTG can't even if they wanted too. Having been around the Train-Sim community for a long time I know that a lot of these companies do not hold licenses for the products they sell. I'm not going to point fingers or name names but it's a fact of life, and also let's face it BNSF is not going to spend a lot of legal dollars chasing a small company. Interesting fact, I just did a whois and corporate name search for 4 of the North American companies that you think are reputable (And list themselves as corps). Domain info is all registered through a 3rd parties and I could not find a formal corporate registration for any of the companies. Whereas DTG info is right on the "contact us" page. If I were BNSF/UP/CSX etc.I wouldn't waste the dollars chasing a company that's just going to shut down and start selling under a different name. 2nd. The might not go after TDG as they are UK based, but they sure as hell would go after Valve/Steam for selling an unlicensed product. Also notice how steam is smart enough to figure out your IP address and decide to sell you a pack with the BNSF logo, or one with just the color scheme.

    Excellent pics, however BNSF did not buy any AC4400's with steerable trucks, this was a CSX/CP thing. Then both companies went back the the Hi-Adhesion trucks. Just a small point, but thanks for sharing a great pic.
     
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  20. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Yes, including a certain beloved simulator of North American rail. I like your point about Valve.

    Yes, I know. BNSF also did not have any AC4400s with nose-mounted headlights, but alas, there is no better model at the moment. The upcoming Cane Creek UP AC4400CW will serve as a better base model for future livery artists.
     
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  21. Kazick

    Kazick New Member

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    Things about licensing that people forget is that your train sims, unless you put that "officially licensed" sticker on it you don't exactly need a license. Yes copyright is a thing but for decades the model railroad industry has operated under "good faith building" practice. The railroads didn't care so much if Athearn or Atlas or Bachman made models of their locomotives and rolling stock because at the core it wasn't depicting them in a negative light. And it was not at all hurting their profits. Back in 2004 ago UP tried to sue Lionel and Athearn and the above "good faith building" practice. So the augment that "we cant get a license to make a route" I find a little meh. Its hard to copyright the ground. Its more likely they don't want to put the effort into make a route that has been made so many times in other sims and varying levels of details.
     
  22. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    From my understanding you can do a route without a license, the initial TS routes (such as Hagen-Siegen) were done without any license from (for example) DB, yet TS has not been sued, because (from what I understood) DB couldn't care less whether a sim has its logo in it, of course there are exceptions, such as BNSF but generally I think if I were to put a sim on steam with the DB logo and didn't include any harm to their image they would be fine with it.

    However, I think you would technically need a license for it and so DTG for TSW decided to be correct and license things anyway, this also means they can get in touch with the various companies which can provide details and insider informations, as I believe was the case especially with SNCF.
     
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  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The sad thing is, this will prevent some great US routes ever making it into TSW2. Marias Pass (or part thereof) come to mind as does Stevens Pass but the other route which would have made an excellent study is the BN "Funnel" between Sandpoint and Spokane, especially if set before the route was largely double tracked. Constant procession of grain trains, hotshot intermodals and Amtrak.
    But unlikely to be...
     
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  24. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    The track, ground, bridges, etc that the trains run on are not copyrighted. It is the logos that are, and DTG doesn't want to do a route, unless they can have locomotives with the respective companies' logos.
     
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  25. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Were we to do so the first thing we'd get as a response is "I think you'll find that train company X operates on this route, not the one you've used" followed by "Petition to use train company X on the new route".
     
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  26. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Would this effect something like Cajon Pass?
    While BNSF owns the tracks that runs thru the pass (Except the Palmdale Cutoff) Union Pacific has trackage rights thru the pass to Daggett north of Barstow.
     
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  27. JGRudnick

    JGRudnick Well-Known Member

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    Yep, exactly what I mean by you don't want to do routes where you can't get the proper companies logos in the game.
     
  28. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Produce loco in generic colours without logos.
    What decorations individuals choose to add won’t be dtg’s responsibility.
     

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